Again, I invite those of you who are in the "new makes most sense" camp to candidly chime in as to whether you HAVE or have NOT actually had the opportunity to sit down and listen to a vintage deck along the lines of a TD124 or Garrard 301. Let me make this confession-I used to belong to your "new makes more sense" camp. My brain and logic told me that modern manufacturers must have succeeded through the dark days of vinyl by dint of manufacturing ingenuity. I bought with my eyes. Starting more than ten years ago, the looks of the VPI Scout talked to me and said, "buy me". So after trying a few lesser new tables, I bought a VPI Classic thinking it would be the last turntable I would ever want. I was convinced by all the VPI fans, by the positive reviews, by the huge cast platter, by the fancy looking tonearm. Then I traded in the Classic for a Prime thinking it just had to be the last turntable I would ever want since it had the same tonearm that Fremer had raved about in his review of VPI's $30,000 direct drive deck. You can judge with your eyes and logic, but you can't judge accurately with your eyes and logic. You have to listen. You also have to surrender your penchant for outward appearance. A deck that seems ugly but that sounds fantastic will begin to look beautiful to you. A deck that your eyes initially said was a beauty will fade to drabness if you don't like the way it sounds. Let me borrow from Lewm6 and the old phrase, "you pays your money and you takes your choice".
What is the fascination?
I have to ask what is the fascination with these older turntables? I recently listened to an older SP 10 MKII with a Jelco and Older SME arm with Koetsu and Stanton cartridges. The sound was very good I will admit but I cannot say it was better than the 1200G or even a 1200GR for that matter. Heck even the Rega RP 8 is really an amazing sounding turntable for the money and they are brand new. These tables are coming up on 40 plus years old. One forum contributor said a turntable should not have any sound at all. I agree and the newer tables get closer to that "no sound" than many of these colored (smooth, warm) sounding turntables I recently purchased a Pickering ESV 3000 MM cartridge that arrived in the mail yesterday and I had to ask myself, "what am I doing?" So with that being said, why the fascination? If one want to change the sound of the table, start with the cartridge, they all do sound different. Nowadays the tables and arms are so good and engineered based on the earlier designs and bettered. Also, when you buy say an older used arm, how do you know its been cared for? Arms bearings can be screwed up pretty bad when one tries to tighten cartridges with the headshell attached to the tonearm or the tonearm mounted on the table and many people do not even know they are destroying their arms bearings so I mean you really have to know who you are getting the arm from and check the bearings etc. There is a lot of risk with turntables, much more than with any components because of so many moving parts that do get old and break. Why the fascination?
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Between the devil and the deep blue sea! For decades I have cherished and nursed along my Thorens TD-160 from the 70s. I have dressed it up with Pickering and Shure carts. In Jan of this year I made the break and purchased the Rega p-6 with Ortofon MM bronze cart. The technology of the past 40 years just blows the old love away in every sense. The only thing missing is the dampened auto arm to make sure each set down is gentle. Their is no comparison in the performance and the music. But after many months and some spare $$$ I have added the same Orotfon cart to my old TD-160 and it is also splendid. If I had put this cart on first I may not have even looked for a replacement. The best news is that I have two great systems set up in different parts of the house and when I leave the conservatory and the 120 watts of Harmon Karden driving the Rega into new Bose 901s I can go to "Bubby's Bunker" in the basement where the old TD-160 is driven by the new Marantz PM 8006 into my 'home made' tower speakers. Beethoven upstairs and MC-5 in the Bunker. Why the fascination? It is like any other 'old love' or 'new love'. After 45 years of marriage to the same woman I can barely imagine getting a 'new' one or that a new one could possibly be any better. No one could feel better to wake up next to in the morning. The better news is that the Thorens has no interest in me being faithful or even loving and I can play the Rega all I want without anxiety or regret or scorn. It is OK to love them both, or even all of them. |
Personally, and only personally, I prefer mating a vintage deck-restored or revitalized by a pro, with a modern era arm, in my case Reed 3P's. My "trusted guy" for deck restoration mostly gravitates toward SME 3009's. When he got a chance to see, install, and listen to my Reed 3P on my Thorens TD124, he immediately made efforts to secure two Reed 3P's for his personal Gerrard 301. That speaks volumes IMO. The tonearms of the day ('55-'62) have been significantly bettered by modern arms. High compliance MM's ruled the day back then. Modern cartridges mate better with modern arms. https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=102&cp_id=10239&cs_id=1023903&p_id=2747&seq=1... |
Inclined to agree with @fsonic above. I have 2 fully restored Garrard 401s with Audiosilente idler wheels. The early twin-spark model is in a slate plinth, the other in a walnut topped birch ply plinth. Both run new Jelco 12" arms (850 and 750 respectively) For the money, and apart from possibly a Lenco L75, there is no finer turntable solution. |
fsonicsmith, Does the old Thornes motor have any identification on it? I'd like to pick one up to use on my table. Been using different hurst model motors & although they do the job, they are throw aways & rather under powered IMO. In regard to vintage, I'm running an old signature Grado as well as an old empire 4000diii. I love those cartidges! The grado is better than 25 years old & the empire is around 40 years old. When set up properly, they are sublime. |
tzh21yEasy answer. Some of the "older turntables" offer reference caliber analog playback. Plain and Simple. A kind bit of advise, garner more experience ie. real life listening in top notch listening environments, with various properly setup and conceived "older" turntables. I think you might be in for a real shock. Not all that is "newer" is good - better and not all that is "older" is bad - worse. This is especially true in high end audio, not in disposable mainstream big box store consumer electronics. Do your own homework, and educate yourself. I speak from my past humbling experiences, and I used to believe the same. |
@ferrari275 good point. The engineering that went into turntables of the pre-CNC age was good ole fashioned blood, sweat and tears. No good design came easily back 40 and 50 years ago. There is also something to be said for work ethic and the non-globalized labor market of those times. I’ve restored some 35 to 40 year old turntables, and aside from the scarcity of parts, they’ve been a joy to work on and listen to, simply because of the inherent quality they possess. You know a turntable is good when it’s that old and can survive abuse of a deranged rapper and then be restored without major reconstructive surgery. |