What do you see as the downside of tubes?

This thread has outlived it's usefulness and as Dan_ed points out, it's definitely gone "down the crapper" with Phd's asinine remarks. Maybe we should all scrap our inefficient gear and go with class D amps to save the planet. NOT!

Kruati, I bet next time you'll phrase your question differently. ;-)

98% of this thread is complete nonsense, but Phd's last post really took things down the crapper.

Krauti, GM as well as some other major car manufacturers are very capable of building some of the worlds best vehicles but it is a terrible shame that top management failed to make the transition from gasoline vehicles to greener transportation. They had plenty of time to contemplate this years ago. Global warmer is a serious threat and if we continue to on the path were on, no one will be employed. Will be too busy trying to survive.

Anyway there is a downside to everything, both solid state and tubes, just pick your poison.

:) I just got home from a somewhat unsuccessfull fishing trip to Charlevoix and you guys have kept going on this thread and I found it's even in those three threads right on top. How did it get there? Really didn't plan on that.

Still don't have the amp as I need to wait how the whole GM thing will play out this week as unfortunately I work for a company which is directly affected by that. Hope I won't be knocking on the door of the unemploment office downtown next week.

Well, I shall keep coming back as I kinda like a thread with it's own heartbeat. As far as the usefullness goes I guess it has outlived it a little, yet if we were to no never through in something a little different this could be a somewhat boring forum.

Thanks guys

Eldartford, digital modeling amps have been around for years in the guitar world. As far as I can tell, people only play them out of desperation as they are a far cry from the thing that they are trying to model, i.e. a Marshall Plexi or Fender Twin. Its going to take more convincing than is possible in a thread to make modeling a plausible exercise for high end audio!

Mapman, not exactly. Pentodes are less linear in some ways than some CMOS devices, but still are more linear than a bipolar device. So the comment is a generalization, but only barely. In the case of triodes, there are no transistors, even the best fets and their variants, that are as linear.

Linearity in the device is a big deal if you want true audio/musical performance. Without it you will have to run less gain per stage and more feedback, making for a considerably more complex circuit. The simplicity of tube circuits is one of the ways that they rule over transistors.

Simple transistor circuits are rare. Their master is Nelson Pass. He has sorted out some of these simple facts, and built some of the best-sounding transistor amps around. But when you examine them, you will find that many of the so-called advantages of transistors (low output impedance, low heat) have been thrown out in favor of real advantages (performance that is musical to the human ear).

No need to apologize Mr E- There are also companies that manufacture outboard effects pedals, and guitar amps with options, that attempt to digitally simulate the sound of tubed gear. The vast majority of us still opt for tubed amps though. Nothing sounds quite the same, after years of the real thing. Kinda like bank tellers: After they've handled real money for a while, they can tell fake stuff as soon as they touch it.

Atmasphere,
1)Tubes are often much more linear than trasistors?
2)Eldartford already addressed this, but isn't easier/cheaper to keep ss amps away from overload?
3)Perhaps you can explain these "capacitive effects"?

Atmasphere,

Are those things inherent in all tubes versus all transistors, or just more common in practice?

Also, if inherent, technically what is different that accounts for these differences?

Eldartford-Was the modeling used by carver the t that he started to add in his amp names?

Atmasphere...As I recall (and it was a long time ago) after "modeling" Carver inserted networks to match what was modeled. Listening tests by a gang of golden ears were unable to distinguish the modeled amp from the real thing.

May I submit that a D/A conversion (digital amp) can be much more linear than any analog component (eg: tube).

Clipping characteristics are of academic interest. I don't operate my amps into clipping.

Actually, Carver showed that an amp could be *modeled*, but even in his tests the modeling did not match the actual behavior of a tube amp.

Mapman, here are some primary differences.
1) Tubes are often much more linear than transistors. Triodes are the most linear form of amplification known. This results in far less need or no need at all for feedback to reduce distortion.

2) tubes produce mainly lower-ordered harmonics, transistors tend to produce higher ordered harmonics, especially odd-ordered. This can be easily seen in the overload characteristics of the amplifiers where these behaviors are exaggerated. Anyone who has run an amplifier into clipping and observed the output with an oscilloscope knows what I am talking about

3) tubes tend to high impedance while transistors tend to low impedance. In addition, there are capacitive effects in transistors that are magnified at higher currents. The effect of this is that both transistors and tubes will sound better (lower distortion, smoother sound, greater transparency) when driving higher impedances.

Mapman-I sure it has to do with the flow of electrons in solid state junctions of pnp or npn materials vs the flow in a vacuum from cathode to plate thru the grid(s) in your output tube; somehow harmonically there is a difference that can be heard.
I sure Ralph will expand on your question as well if he sees it;thats the best I can do.

Well. actually, a couple of decades ago Bob Carver demonstrated that characteristics of an audio amp can be taylored to match those of any other amp. Also, Behringer, (sorry about that Rodman99999) makes a device that can be added to a system to simulate tube sound. There is a selector switch to choose what tube type you want to match.

But if tubes turn you on, it's probably easier to just use tubes.

"If there was any way that transistors could be made to make the music that tubes can, I would not be making tube amps"

Atmasphere, is there a scientific explanation for why this is? What is it exactly about tubes that inherently make them sound different than solid state?

AMEN!!

We put a Standby feature on our amps so that you could keep the amps warmed up 24/7 if you wanted to- and rated the amps accordingly. The nice thing about tubes is that if you want the system warmed up properly, it only takes about 3 hours, where solid state requires about a week. So IMO, why waste the energy- I don't run the amps 24/7 because I don't *have* to for best sound, though I certainly could and have done so many times in the past.

As proof of that I just came home from vacation and found that I had left my preamp on while I was gone. Sheesh- I hate wasting the power, but the preamp was none the worse for wear.

Anyway, if the tubes are in Standby (filaments but no B+), they will make very little heat (unless your amps use 6C33s). Most of the heat a tube amp makes is due to the class of operation, not the filaments. IMO if heat is what is the priority, your system is going to sound like it too. I would not call that a high end system- a high end system is all the stops out to create the realism and experience of music. To do that will make heat, tube or transistor not withstanding.

There is a common tendency to trade convenience for performance; digital vs analog and tubes vs transistors are examples of this tradeoff. If there was any way that transistors could be made to make the music that tubes can, I would not be making tube amps- but I put up with the base nature of tubes because also therein also lies the closest you are going to get to the music.

To reply to the OP, the chief downsides of tube components are as follows:

1) you will have less time for your wife/GF/etc., leading to resentments if they are at all insecure.
2) your career will suffer as you spend way too much time listening to music instead of working.
3) your net worth will be diminished as you spend more coin on LPs and CDs, etc. than you did before emerging from the SS forest.

I think owning tubes is like being in love with someone. Sure there are compromises, but when it's right, you can't possibly imagine being without them. Rfogel has the right idea. I run the same Atma tube amp and preamp as him. I have been an Atma-sphere user for 20 years (my first set of their amps were almost 20 years old and in perfect condition when I sold them to buy the very latest version - I have since even become a dealer for them) Over the years I have tried some very good SS amps and preamps, and while they were quite good or even excellent, going to the tubes simply always bettered them, in many different ways. The tangible sonic characteristics, and the ones that can't be described, in that one finds themselves so much more "into the music" that goes beyond audiophile attributes.

Also I think owning a set of good tube gear can get one off the audio merry go round much more easily. I think it would be an interesting poll to see who upgrades their gear more often, tube or SS users. If my hunch is correct, than that would mean a considerable cost savings by not buying new gear so often.

I think when i was younger, I was also more impatient. I didn't want there to be any downtime fussing with tubes, and it annoyed me when I had to. I just wanted to listen to music.

Now I look at it as a process, and more of a hobby than just strictly listening to music. I know I may have to hunt down a microphonic or blown NOS tube every so often, but it is seldom and in my mind well worth the investment of time, for the 99.9% of time when I am enjoying the system so much.

Ultimately a well designed tube based system doesn't just make recordings sound nice, but makes them sound like the real thing.

Oh, and as far as tubby or uncontrolled bass, I recently posted about hearing an extremely well regarded speaker, with a well known SS amp that sounded thick and undefined in the bass. Another user posted back that that same combo produced those results when he heard them too. So it isn't just tubes that in the wrong combo can produce a lack of controlled bass.

Well Brian congrats - that is what it is all about. I take it that none of your children or pets were injured, and your house didn't catch on fire? Thank heavens for that bit of luck given that you were in the presence of not just one but TWO tube amps.

Unsound mind, I guess you can add being mesmerized by the music and not hearing the fire alarm to your list of tube amp sins.

"I spent all evening well into the night digging out all kinds of music I had not listened to for eons"

Don't you love it when that happens?

I recently obtained on audiogon a Kt66 SET Sophia integrated amp just for fun and installed it in my system for a trial period driving Quad 989,s.It clearly was not in triode capable of driving to high volumes but sounded terrific doing the relaxed female vocal thing.28 watts in pentode and the quads were almost getting there with rock but not quite.This amp is a thing of beauty and a keeper so I decided to get a second hand pair of Living Voice Avatars so it could realy shine.And the combination is great,making some of the best music in the room ever.All was rosy until I plugged the Avatars into the VAC 70/70 for the first time and sat there mesmerized, I spent all evening well into the night digging out all kinds of music I had not listened to for eons.I had traded for these beautiful santos rosewood first generation Avatars In the thoughts of building the perfect low budget system and now am left wondering if I shouldnt consider moving up the living voice line and possibly replace the quads.So the down side of tubes are they are not all created equal,listening to them is addictive,Good ones usualy cost serious money great ones cost more,they cause you to spend money on other parts of the system.Something like great transistor amps.

In the last two years I have owned my first tube amps. rogue audio m150s. I too was afraid of all the bad things that can happen with tubes. so far they [the promblems ] have not happened. when I first got them an output tube blew within the first few days, and it just blew a fuse, no damage to anything else, and rogue replaced the tube for free. after that ,not a singe problem. they drive my revel f32s with ease. they are very easy to bias because they have a built in meter, and by changing the bias level, you change the sound of the amps, way cool ! same thing with changing tubes, if you want your solid state amp to sound different, you have to buy a whole new amp. I have tried all sorts of 12ax7 driver tubes, and the cheap as dirt sovtek 12ax7 lps sounds best in my system. so much for only the realy expensive tubes sound best bs. I have also tried 6 different solid state amps against the rogues and no one of them has had the body or 3d sound of the m150s. I love them , so good luck, and happy listening ! chrissain.

Dopogue- I had always used Phillips ECGs for power tubes, until the prices and availability(you try and find a NOS, matched octet of KT88s or 6550s of anything, anywhere), made that unrealistic for me. I've been VERY pleased with the latest interation of the Winged 'C'(St petersburg) 6550s(from Upscale). Still- My system needs six 6922s(early 60's Siemens CCa for me), and four 6SN7s(1 pair each- 40's Tung Sol CTL/6SN7GT round plates and Sylvania CHS/6SN7W, tall bottles please) The presentation makes any time/effort to locate, or any money spent, well worth it.

Loose bass, forward midrange, bright glassy upper mids/lower highs, rolled off upper highs. Variable performance. Unreliable. High maintance. Difficult to get replacement parts. When they break, they offer the potential to break other links in the system. Excessive heat. Potential burns to children, pets and others. Can cause fires. Requires more care in placement. Limited to use with high impedance speakers. High cost per Watt. Greater sensitivity to speaker cables. Sensitive to vibrations.

Why all the fuss - most of this is quite true although it is a matter of degree. Perhaps Unsound paints an overly negative description for sure, but if you asked people to make a general list of all the cons against tubes they would probably come up with at least four or five items from Unsound's even longer list.

Of course there are a great many pros for tubes starting with their sweet organic, harmonically rich, engaging and musical sound but the OP didn't ask for that.

As the original poster of this thread I actually like the fact that this thread has taken on it's own life. Think that's just what happens over time as once the downsides I've asked for have been stated thread drift sets in.

That some folks seem to find it necessary to ask what others may be "on" isn't what I had intended, but then again, I have no power over this thread and shouldn't. But hey, this is where that proverbial grain of salt may be helpful.

Raquel, thanks for a clear answer as to why tube amps shouldn't be run 24/7.

Well, it's a long weekend and as there's more to life than audio gear and so I shall try to catch a fish and check back later on the life this thread has taken on. In a way I agree that it has outlived it's usefullness as my questions have been answered and my decision is still the same. Hiho, hiho, and off to tubes I go, hiho hiho, hiho hiho......

Enjoy the long weekend
As far as how many times the same thing needs to repeated I think once or twice is good enough.

Good point Raquel. While I sometimes keep my preamp and CD player powered up for days at a time, my hybrid amps get powered down at night or whenever I do not expect to be listening for most of the day. I would expect it to be a good idea to power down fully tubed amps for the reasons you state.

Maineiac, in my first post on this thread, I answered the Krauti's question. In my subsequent posts, I replied to the responses to my posts. "Revelatory, theraputic (just like a good tube amp).)"? Perhaps stepping way from the tubes for a while might offer you some perspective. It's not as though I am insensitive to many of the charms of tubes. I have yet to hear any speakers that do better with tubes that I care to own.

Krauti:

You cannot run a tube amp 24/7 because the output tubes pass a lot of current and will wear out too quickly. This is generally not the case with gear like tube preamps or tubed DAC's that use small-signal tubes (little tubes) - 24/7 operation with small-signal tubes usually extends life and yields better sound, as turning gear on and off subjects the tubes to harmful thermal cycles, as well as a voltage rush on power up if the gear uses solid-state rectification, which is most gear. The latter factor is the biggest problem, which is another advantage of tube rectification and why a lot of tube preamps have a "soft-start" feature which applies voltage slowly to the tube filaments on power-up.

And as others have noted, a tube amp with a lot of output tubes will heat up a room (extreme cases, like ARC's 600 series reference amps, basically require a separate room or custom air conditioning unless you are running them in a gigantic room).

I have a solid-state amp (darTZeel) and tube amp (VAC Renaissance 70/70) in my living room, and run the solid-state amp most of the time because, like the poster who spawned your question, I like the convenience of being able to listen whenever I want. The VAC sounds good in 10 minutes, but sounds better after a few hours of operation, and I don't like powering up the amp and exposing it to a thermal cycle when I'm only going to listen for a few minutes. I do run the VAC in the spring and summer when there are frequent electrical storms, as I work far from home and am not able to get home to power down the darTZeel during electrical storms.

Just to be clear, the issue with tube amps and 24/7 operation is that the big output tubes pass a lot of current, even while idling, and this creates undue wear. Small signal-tubes, on the other hand, pass very little current in most circuits, and as I have written ad nauseum in other threads on this forum, when left on 24/7, they tend to either die within 200-250 hours from "infant mortality" (defective manufacture), or they basically last forever.

About tube-rolling, I was always a fan of NOS tubes and am now having second thoughts. I was using xf1 Mullard EL34s as driver tubes in my SET monoblocks and tried some of the reissue Genalex/Gold Lion KT77s instead and was floored at the improvement. Since the KT77s, while not exactly cheap, are MUCH less costly than the Mullards, it was definitely a win-win. Dave

I haven't found a "downside" to tubes. My love for the sound of the real thing, and the frequency at which I get to hear it, demands that I get as close to it as possible at home. Ditto the cost of the best NOS tubes. My view of their cost is directly related to my love of music. Further: Tube rolling is an inexpensive/easy way for a person to give the sound of his/her system a gentle nudge in a particular direction. A flexible, purely subjective method of adjustment available, relative to the listener's tastes. Regardless of what aural preferences one may have: rolling a couple tubes can take one from merely, "OK" to Audio Nirvana. Try that with your SS system.

Unsound, taking your word that your not hitting the pipe, you may want to re-read your first post alongside the most recent post. The comparison may be revelatory and theraputic(just like good tube amps).

I have gone back and forth between tube and SS preamps, and cd players, even trying those known for "the closest to tube-like sound," such as Tom Evans Vibe/Pulse.
I now have tubes in each of my components, cd, preamp, and amps.
Three things clinched it for me:
First, I realized that for me, tubed gear simply conveys the emotion of recorded music in a way that I have not matched using SS equipment.
Second, I decided to quit obsessing about NOS tubes (and I have owned many). I determined the small loss (of whatever) to the sound quality that some perceive from using less expensive or new tubes is not worth the angst that comes from purchasing and maintaining high cost NOS tubes. I found a very good tube vendor (and a couple of good back-up vendors) and have purchased new or less expensive NOS tubes that do not break the bank. That way, if I want to leave equipment on all weekend, I am not concerned about tube life, etc. since I can replace each of my tubes relatively inexpensively. Another benefit is that new tubes are often quieter IME.
Third, and finally, I found my sweet spot using Lamm equipment with their fully tubed LL2 Deluxe preamp and their hybrid (one single tube per amp) class A M1.1 monos. The hybrid amps give me the power I need, and also the midrange richness and dimension tubes are known for.

I would say buy the tube amps, plan on using less expensive new tubes from a good vendor, and enjoy the music.

I've got a tube amp and love it. It's not for everyone.

Question: how many times do the same advantages and disadvantages need to be repeated?

Ditto Tholt, I disagree with you too M1sst1. I've never owned a tube amp but have owned hybrid int's and tubed players. As one who has been sitting on the sidelines, I continue to consider trying tubes. This is the best thread I've seen to help "flesh out" the pros and cons of owning and using tubed electronics; very helpful and thought provoking analysis here.

05-22-09: Mlsstl
I'll nominate this series of posts as the frontrunner for the 2009 award for which thread has most outlived its usefulness. ;-)
Mlsstl (Reviews | Answers)

Totally disagree. To me, this has been a very useful thread, albeit taking on more of a life then the OP anticipated.

I'll nominate this series of posts as the frontrunner for the 2009 award for which thread has most outlived its usefulness. ;-)

"What do you see as the downside of tubes?"
I provided a list. That doesn't mean all tube users will experience all the items on the list. That doesn't mean that the upside might not outweight the downside. The question doesn't ask for a comparison with other technologies. To suggest that I'm smoking something, am on something, or that I have been traumatized by tube use is suggestive (at least to me) of defensive behaviour by those posters. Those who have read my past posts know that I strongly believe that in most cases speakers should suggest what might be the best amplifiers to use. I think that makes it pretty obvious that I also believe that tubes amps might be the best choice for some. I have even recommended some tube amplifiers for some users right here on Audiogon. That said, I stand by my original post as to what I see as the downside of tubes.

I am not sure that Unsound is completely off. We all know that speaker/amp match is important. But can you find a set of speakers that meet the following:

1. flat impedance curve
2. larger woofers (> 11")
3. no built-in amps
4. plays down to 30Hz (-3dB)

Unsound must have been involved in an abusive tube amp relationship in his past.

The downsides can be dealt with. As is easy to see, many of us have determined that those hassles are easily worth bearing for the sake of the sound quality. Although there are excellent SS amps to be had, it really seems that tubes with good compatible speakers is the place to be.

I'm not really worried about the heat or power consumption anyway. The Electrocompaniets got warm but not too warm and I don't think the 300B's will be worse.

Maybe I give of some heat due to audio excitement but that's probably gonna be it.

Still surprised for how long this post has been going :)

Not good to run tube amps 24 hours. Unless you like replacing tubes. Most all tube amp warm up fast. Uli Many of these posts refer to large power tube amps these run very hot the se300b a SET amp does not it will not heat up room will not require extra AC.

If the amp has a standby selector/switch then 24/7 should not be a problem;I think it is more a personal choice.
I don't leave mine on 24/7 and they have a standby switch;I know inrush current flow and tube powering on and off can be a cause of early tube failure but I think it is more a design issue;if implemented well it should not be a issue.
I sure wouldn't mind if Ralph from Atmasphere stuck his head in on the 24/7 aspect just to hear a designer/manufacturers point of view.

Irrey, I'm not on anything! Perhaps you should reread the title of this thread. If you've truly been into tubes for as long as you claim, then you should be well aware that the issues I've pointed out have been pointed out by others for just as long.

I have a question for Spatialking now. What is the reason for the issue with you not being able to run the tube amp for 24h like you'd do with a SS amp? is it simply to get the most out of the lifetime of your tubes or some other reason.

As I don't think this has been mentioned before I'm quite interested to hear more about it.

Don't think the heat will be much of an issue as I don't listen all that much. It may become an issue though as we don't have central AC (just two of those AC cubes that go into the windows and neither one is where the amp will live and here in Grand Rapids/MI it does get rather humid and pretty warm in the summer. I'll find out either way.

Please dont buy a tube amp, thus leaving more tubes for me...seriously though if you havent experience a tube (anything) particularly an amp then get yourself down to your local Hi-Fi shop and listen. After this all should be clear. I have been building and buying tube amps for some 40 years now and have not experienced any major issues (in fact it was a large major manufacturers SS that took out a pair of speaks. I have no idea what "unsound" is on, clearly some bad experiences but not all of us have these. Buy from a good manufacturer sit back and listen and enjoy the MUSIC

Mordante,

"Maybe, just maybe a tube pre-amp would be acceptable but tubes to not belong in power amps."

Given your musical tastes, to which I wander as well on occasion, I strongly recommend trying this approach based on my experiences in the land of tube audio gear thus far if you feel motivated to give some tube gear a try. You might also consider a tube DAC if digital is a main source for you.

Good NOS tubes are becoming scarce.

sorry jafox, i should have been more specific...power tubes are fused & yes I've owned ARC where a shorted power tube took out a resistor. i can understand the CAT & ARC purist approach but not particularly user friendly imo.

I have never owned any tube gear and I think I'll never will. Tube amps have to much much of a own sound signature. They may have sound beautiful and lush and warm. But when I play some ear bleeding trash metal I don't want a full bodied liquid warm sound. I want ear shattering screaming highs, window shattering lows. etc.

I know I am a bit over the top, but to my ears tube have a tendency to make music more listener friendly/warmer/more lush then the music really is. Maybe, just maybe a tube pre-amp would be acceptable but tubes to not belong in power amps.

Also tube gear of equal quality to ss gear is more expensive. You can buy a decent integrated ss amp for $1000 I don't know any decent tube integrated amp for $1000