What define "musicality" ? And what constitute "musicality" in audio ?

Shubert ... we are all different...
 
For sure it is way more easy to buy costly components and with that buying some  "musicality"... My system all in all cost me 1000 bucks and I am proud to enjoy "musicality" with it, not at your level potential in audio term for sure.... I am curious, what is the most satisfying component purchase in your system or the most important step toward this goal in your audio room or grid?  Thanks for your answer...

My system sounds very close to live music .I knew what it should sound like from attending over 2,000 live classical concerts over the last 50 years .
How I did it was the same almost every serious audiophile does it , cut and paste every bit of the system till you get there .
I like to say, "I have the best 30K system in Minnesota and it only cost me 130,000 $$$ .
Flash no8 , The great halls and symphonies of this world don’t play bad music and very seldom make mistakes .
                   They and the worlds greatest soloists taught me what I need  to know in over 2.000 lessons .                   
                     I'm a slow learner .
                   


                  Of course if you don't listen to live acoustic music its of no use to you .

Very interesting remarks N80...

Apart of personal musical taste and education, in your own audio system what steps had make possible the experience of "musicality", the vivid impression of pleasure linked to your recorded music ?

@schubert :  "Pretty simple , sounds like live music ."

For me that definition falls short in far too many ways.

First, not all live music sounds good. Not all live music is performed well. Not all live venues have good acoustics. All venues and performers sound different at different times. So there would have to be some other qualification than 'live'. It just doesn't tell us much.

Second, the vast majority of music I listen to is made in a studio. And the stuff I really like is made well and played well. So in that case the characterstic of 'live' is not relevant to what I'm hearing on my system.

I would struggle to describe musicality ( or even speel it at times) but I know it when I hear it.

How do I know or define that knowledge?

By being able to listen to my music for more hours than actually exist in a day.
With no fatigue and no desire to leave my blessed super comfy listening spot.

Taken time and money to reach this position but if I am honest with myself any equipment changes from here out are just because I want to and not need to.
A happy place to be within indeed.

Ghosthouse you are right for sure...I concur with you...

But when that is said, what is the factor or the factors that make possible the experience of "musicality" with your system with your music of choice, then with your personal implication in your experience?


For example in reading your post, I enjoy a jazz file from my computer that I had not listen in a while,a musical jazz file recorded in public that I was not enjoying so much in the past; but now I tap my toes... Why? I know perfectly why, the reason is the improvements made crystal clear for me in my audio grid in the last months...I am only curious about your experience...I dont want to detail mine too much here...I want to learn from you all ...

PS - I don’t think you can force this experience of awe or musicality...whatever you want to call it. It happens when IT pleases or perhaps more aptly when Someone Else pleases. All you can try to do is prepare the space for it to happen...as much as budget and technical insight allow. Everything matters...gear, wire, power supply, vibration/resonance control, personal energy level...but the music most of all.

mahgister - 

To me, the "awe musical experience" vs "musicality" (as might be experienced during playback of recorded music) are two separate things.  "Awe" and "musicality" might overlap but I can easily imagine hearing a nicely musical audio system (approaching the quality of live sound, even) without the awe-factor because it was lacking in the moment's personal response to that particular music selection...and this lack not reflecting in any negative way on the gear itself!

Yes you are right for sure Shubert...

But how to touch this in audio? How do you obtain that for yourself? When do you live this experience the first times or the last times and why? I am interested by YOUR experience, products, tweaks, experiments, to live that "musicality" in your audio room and system... And others like me may benefit from your insight and experience, or enjoy your remarks...Thanks to you...

Pretty simple , sounds like live music .

Ghosthouse and Oregonpapa your point is very good and I enjoy myself the same revelation about " music" with my radio car... The greatest pianists I ever listen to are badly reproduced on cd for example... Then I concur with you 2...

But enjoying "music" is not exactly the same thing than audio "musicality", this is not synonymus though related...I dreamed 7 years ago to buy some audiophile system and I read plenty about that to experience a relatively good level of "musicality" with an audio system grid... I am curious about how others embark this road and succeed...Enjoying music is a thing, enjoying audio "musicality" in reproduction another...I am curious of the experience of others...

mahgister -

Gotcha...okay. The critical requirement. What is absolutely essential for the "awe musical experience" is the music/composition itself. Case in point, driving home at night listening to music on the car radio. Stravinsky’s "Symphony of Psalms" was played. First I'd ever heard it.  I sat in the car in the driveway until it was finished. A magical moment that had nothing to do with sonics or gear quality. Went out the next day and bought that recording (vinyl - this is back before CDs).

So +1 to Oregonpapa’s car radio comment.

Thanks Ghosthouse, I really like your remarks...In particular about top-tier piece of gear,it is not absolutely necessary to buy top-tier electronics for this experience, I am ok with that opinion ...Buying the right product or the more costly one is not the only factor, there is also thinking,experimenting, tweaking,modifying and implementing the different pieces of our audio system in a room...I will wait for more ideas...

My question was only asked to learn what makes for you the "awe musical experience" not like an ephemereal only subjective one,but like also a relatively objective goal relatively accomplished with a minimal audio system created for this experience and assembled by the user,the listener,and the buyer ... Many factors,many opinions, and I like to learn... Like i said i must give their due to the many forums where i learn to create this experience in his minimal format for myself....My best to you

My take on musicality:   It is the "gestalt" delivered by a happy combination of composition, performance, recording, electronics and physiology.   When present it obviates the need to focus on "audiophile performance" descriptors.  It can manifest even without benefit of top tier electronics.  It is necessarily subjective and might not even be consistently experienced day to day (despite the same recording, same electronics, etc., etc.).  It is often ephemeral.  I think fsonicsmith makes some valid points but on balance I disagree.  I do concede the term is of little use in the context of a gear-focused audio discussion, however that doesn't make it meaningless in any absolute sense.

If the music sweeps me into it I call it musical.  If everything sounds perfect but lacks involvement I call it technical.  With the right balance the two work together. A component can be more accurate, balanced, dynamic ... but does it make me feel good inside?  

"Musicality" - a term equivalent to watching music waveforms on an oscilloscope! 

I start this question about "musicality" because it takes me 7 years to had this awe moment with my audio room and audio grid,and to think that I have it now relatively speaking for sure; I can listen music now with satisfaction without thinking back about big "defects" in my audio grid that distract me of the music I want to listen to...

Now for the first time I enjoy without too much thinking about some change, upgrading, or buying... This is the " musicality" I enjoy... I am curious to know what others think about their "musicality" experience in listening...And what is the factors that makes that happened to you...For sure there are many factors that create "musicality" experience...But some factors are more important than others, they are the one that interest me...Those factors that contribute the most to your pleasure and satisfaction with your own audio grid...


By the way it is because I read forums like Audiogon for the last 7 years that I learned what to do for myself to gain this always relative and minimal but important "musicality" personal experience; I learn to ponder the decisive factors I must focus on and work with to gain this experience of satisfaction with music reproduction I name "musicality", and not only what piece of gear is more useful to buy...I want to learn from you... 

Interesting remark Mental, thanks... And Thanks Fsonicsmith for your  points about "musicality", there is truth to ponder...

It's a lazy meaningless term. The proof is in the fact that someone decides to defend it in the OP. It is like calling food "tasty". Good audio writers never use the term because they don't have to. They have the writing skills to describe what they are hearing without resorting to meaningless shorthand. It also gets thrown around more often with regard to low to mid-priced gear. It bothers me less than PRAT because that too is a horse-crap term. "Toe-tapping" is another. I have one for all these stupid terms; "cringe-worthy". 
Thelonious Monk is known to have said, "writing about music is like dancing to architecture". The same can be said for trying to describe attributes of audio gear but since we gear-heads love to read and write about our hobby, here we are. 
In this age of the internet, there is a democratization of audio reviewing. We have webzines like 6Moons and Parttimeaudiophile in which the level of writing/reviewing is a whole step down from the likes of Mike Fremer, Art Dudley and Jon Atkinson and then below the webzines we have "the 600 lb fat guys living in their mom's basements" putting up whatever they want on this Board and others. And no, the reference to 600lb fat guys is not meant literally, it means some anonymous person who could be anywhere with little or no meaningful knowledge or experience. 
I have multiple hobbies and gravitate to multiple forums/boards. On each, one has to rifle through a ton of chaff to find any wheat. 

I think that no musical hall or concert hall sound the same, and no individual room either; and the performance is linked to the location of the interpreters and the location of the listeners, sometimes 2 different locations that the audio grid linked together... Not only there is engineering factors in the experience of listening music, architecture of the concert hall in the lived experience, audio engineering also, audio electronics in delayed experience, there is also the individuality of the hearing body of each of us with our own past experience... The experience of "musicality" is linked to all that I think...But one thing is fundamental, each of us, creator of music or listeners, we all crave for "musicality" in the concert hall or in our audio room...I want to know the factors that contribute to this experience in our audio experiments in our own room... That reduce the experience to the audio side of the story and the personal factors in our own history with the experience of the reproduction of music... I will leave the creative side of the story to philosophy of music and of musical performance... I want to read each of us about his personal experience with his audio system in his room..... 

What are the most  important factors, or perhaps the single more important one, that contribute to your own experience of "musicality" ?I will learn something...

But plenty of people use the term "musical" to describe how a system sounds, not just how a performance sounds. That makes it sound like two different things.

I am going to have to agree with this, with the caveat that a quality system can intensify the feeling.

Oregonpapa
Musicality has to do with pace, the expert playing of the musicians, the correct tonality of the instruments, the layering of the instruments, and/or the proper positioning of the players on the sound stage. When it all comes together, that is musicality.

I don’t think musicality has much to do with audiophile terms, like transparency, and such. I’ve heard musicality on the car radio, even to such a degree that I’ve stopped the car, written down the name of the artist, then driven over to the nearest record store to buy the music.

and this, without the emphasis on the system

millercarbon
Musicality I think is one of those terms people use for when the system or component sounds good in a way that you are trying to think of exactly how it sounds good but its hard because your foot starts tapping and your heart starts racing and your mind keeps returning to how goddamn good it sounds so quit bugging me man just go away and oh yeah damn that sounds good!

Musicality has peaked when that chill runs down the back of you spine.

I don’t think musicality has much to do with audiophile terms, like transparency, and such. I’ve heard musicality on the car radio, even to such a degree that I’ve stopped the car, written down the name of the artist, then driven over to the nearest record store to buy the music.

Conversely, I’ve heard super transparent systems before that are amazing in that one regard. But, after 20 minutes of listening, one is left wondering ... where is the musical involvement? Where is the musical emotion? Why am I bored listening to this system? Where’s the exit?

Oregonpapa,thanks for your point, very interesting for me, because this experience of yours we have lived that also most of us and it is some food for thinking...

Thanks to the others also, interesting beginnings for tought...

It seems to happen when all distractions have gone away.

The Linn turntable people used to call it "pace." I think it goes beyond that.

So many times when I’m listening to music, whether its a full classical orchestra or a jazz trio, I find myself thinking "boy what a tight group." That’s musicality.

Musicality has to do with pace, the expert playing of the musicians, the correct tonality of the instruments, the layering of the instruments, and/or the proper positioning of the players on the sound stage. When it all comes together, that is musicality.

I don’t think musicality has much to do with audiophile terms, like transparency, and such. I’ve heard musicality on the car radio, even to such a degree that I’ve stopped the car, written down the name of the artist, then driven over to the nearest record store to buy the music.

Conversely, I've heard super transparent systems before that are amazing in that one regard. But, after 20 minutes of listening, one is left wondering ... where is the musical involvement? Where is the musical emotion? Why am I bored listening to this system? Where's the exit? 

Like in the famous pornography case, when asked how he would define pornography, the judge said: "I know it when I see it." With musicality, I know it when I hear it.

Frank

Musicality I think is one of those terms people use for when the system or component sounds good in a way that you are trying to think of exactly how it sounds good but its hard because your foot starts tapping and your heart starts racing and your mind keeps returning to how goddamn good it sounds so quit bugging me man just go away and oh yeah damn that sounds good!

I think that many descriptors of sound are difficult to explain, but one that is very difficult to explain is "musicality" but when we experience it, relatively for sure, not in an absolute sense, it is like we are less conscious of the sound first and more conscious of the flowing experience of the music we listen to in the now ...Sometimes miraculously, all is right in the audio system, and we swim with the music...No subconscious insatisfaction grab us back...


For each of us if we think about the many different factors that make this experience possible, we, each of us had our opinions,our experiments, our discoveries: cables, particular piece of gear, tweaks, etc... I am very curious about how each of us gain his access to this "musicality" experience... The fact is there is a progression, but one day, suddenly the miracle is somehow there :"musicality"... Why? How? I think that for each of us this experience of wonder is different... I am curious to read the reflexions of others about that...


I am interested to read about "wonders"  in experiencing "musicality" by each of us, it is a long road to experience that, this is not a problem that has only a simple one miraculous solution, it is a long way for most of us...I am interested by  your particular history about that experience...

I've never understood that specific characteristic but your description helps. Looking forward to seeing what others have to say.

There are some descriptors that make perfect sense to me both intuitively and with experience but some do not. Musicality seems like it could have a lot of 'felt' variables; hard to pin down.

I think when that is the case it is easy for us to misunderstand one another and not even know it.