@gdnrbob - I was commenting on a question made by noble100 I also don't believe there's any validity to golfnutz claim that Erik has criticized Pass Labs or Spectral amps. Anyway, I didn't answer Erik previously about this because sure enough it would turn into a pissing match, and you didn't wait too long to make that happen. I've made my point, so yes, I'll give it up as you wish. |
gdnrbobNo, no-one has that right to tell some to give it up, if they’re not breaking any forum posting rules, what are you, a forum cop?? gdnrbob" I would if it wasn’t warranted, and usually do " Just like you tried to tell me to do! Just tell them/yourself not to read it, instead of beating them with your stick |
D’Agostino, Luxman, Ayre are my top favorites right now. Spectral is a line I wanted to be impressed with, like Pass, and I just haven’t. They do not bring me joy. On the opposite end of the spectrum is Pass. A sound I really don’t like. First two posts were what amps do you like, not which ones you don’t like. Third post was one of his trolling threads, which was created after another one didn’t bring any posts. Anyway, there's others, but this should be enough to explain myself. |
I went looking, while there was 1 thread that was deleted, but still searchable, this is the harshest thing I could say about Spectral, and it was in 2016: I've heard Spectral at Goodwyn's High End in Waltham, MA ages ago. I missed the magic, but it has a very strong following, what did I miss that others like about it? I find it hard to believe that this is offensive, even less so that anyone remembers it. :D :D :D Best, Erik |
Thanks for those kind words, @noble100 I actually do have amps I like and amps I do not like, and if some one asks about them I'm happy to share my honest opinion about them and why I picked something else. I hope I continue to do so in a way that is respectful of the preferences and experiences of others. Best, Erik |
erik_squires:"My original point George was that you never accept anyone's experience with Class D as valid, or just as important as yours, and that is a type of disrespect I really really wish you would stop demonstrating." I just wanted to weigh in and state, based on my personal experience reading and participating on threads concerning class D amplification on numerous threads here on Audiogon over the past several years, that Erik's quoted statement concerning georgehifi/George above is completely accurate. On almost any thread concerning class D, George can be relied upon to post and express his unreasonable disdain for class D due to some sort of shortcoming, typically a shortcoming he has theorized but lacks empirical or convincing evidence for. I can't yet explain why George is so obviously and consistently anti-class D, but the real issue is that apparently, neither can he. At least, not convincingly. I also don't believe there's any validity to golfnutz claim that Erik has criticized Pass Labs or Spectral amps. In my opinion, Erik has been very respectful in all of the many posts of his that I've read. I think we should all refrain from making general critical claims about other members, especially without citing specific support for the claim. Tim |
atmasphere, Of course you can take my word for anything I say I hear. Also, because I am not in the business I tell things like it is without concern for politics. Actually, I use an EQ to drastically boost HF because as a violinist hearing things under my ear, I tell you that all speakers are hopelessly veiled and muddy compared to that. I cannot make any system sound as natural and truthful as the real thing, but my EQ helps a lot. My speakers are aging Audiostatic 240, and I add the Enigmacoustics Sopranino super tweeters in parallel at the 8 kHz crossover setting. The net impedance of this combination is a little below 2 ohms in HF. In combination with my EQ I need lots of power into HF with the inefficient parallel stat speakers. The Mytek will rarely shut down for only unusual passages in classical music, even with my crazy (to most people) requirements. Even my little Bryston 2.5B SST2 which clips on probably merely 50 watts at 2 ohms since the power supply is skimpy, produces highly detailed, fast, clear sound within its limits. For classical music before Brahms, it is totally powerful enough and enjoyable. Even for Brahms which doesn't have any percussion, it is powerful enough, used at sensible volumes. The little Bryston is not powerful enough for Mahler and cymbal crashes, but the Mytek handles all classical music well. |
Admittedly those Chinese modules above, have been "tickled" a little by Pascal, http://www.pascal-audio.com/products/ like EVS "tickles" the IcePower 1200as modules, just so it takes away from being stock off the shelf. From 6 MoonsSo red Dragons would also be ones that have the same module and they are cheap, under $1k I believe. https://www.reddragonaudio.com/collections/amplifiers |
My vote goes to D-Sonic Mine would too, when you compare the Class-D module to the $10k usd Rowland Contiuum2, as they are the same. Trouble is they both are Chinese subwoofer plate amp modules, and you could get them on Alibaba for $100 not so long ago. subwoofer amp https://ibb.co/Gkc84zV $10k Rowland Contiuum 2 https://ibb.co/sQ6hYzh X-Pro2 module https://ibb.co/c3DZCgf X-Pro2 measurments https://ibb.co/2qg3vs0 D-Sonic’s 3 different https://ibb.co/5rWCJvq |
Great amp for these types of very hard loads, even if those figures below are a bit wishful, there are always losses. So exact doubling is impossible unless the 8ohm and 4ohm are understated to make the 2ohm look like it's doubling. Nº333 Rated power output 300 w/ch continuous rms power @ 8Ω 600 w/ch continuous rms power @ 4Ω 1200 w/ch continuous rms power @ 2Ω Cheers George |
I have CS5i's and recapped the crossovers last year and made a MAJOR improvement to the driveability by going active on the subs. As part of the recap I drew out the huge crossovers and found that the 2 subs are done as augmentation woofers to 60hz where the 8" center woofer covers sub to 400. Basically all 3 are run in parallel at sub frequencies. There was only a single coil on the subs and it was super easy to wire them to a new binding post. I was able to single amp or biamp and the improvement is stunning. It also opened up them to using many other amps that did not need to cope with the 2 ohm bass load. I used an ICE amp on the subs and my ML 333 on the rest. SUPER dynamic now. |
@georgehifiStereophiles JA’s summation, "practical use with speakers whose impedance doesn’t drop below 3 ohms." You like to put up specs; now you have to also live with what they say. And what they are saying is: The Mytek can make about 300 watts into 2 ohms and therefore is able to double power from 75 watts into 8 ohms to 150 watts into 4 and finally 300 watts into 2 ohms. If we take @viber6 at his word, his amp plays nearly 5dB louder than yours into any load your amp can drive and sounds better at the same time. This assumes that the bass region is where the 2 ohm load occurs- where most of the musical energy lies. But if the 2 ohm load occurs at 8 or 10KHz the story is quite different since so little power is used at that frequency. Then the Mytek would be able to play nearly **10dB louder** than your amp and sound better all the while if we take @viber6 at his word. Quite simply an amplifier does not have to double power into 2 ohms from 4 ohms in order to behave as a voltage source. The only time this might be an issue depends on the impedance curve of the speaker and at the full power of the amp. If less than full power things are very different! |
Your Mytec below measured by Stereophile, could even get it up into 2ohms at all. Stereophiles JA’s summation, "practical use with speakers whose impedance doesn’t drop below 3 ohms." |
George, You said "This Stereophile’s JA’s statement, is the typical case where a 25w amp like the ML2’s with doubling capable wattage current will drive a pig of a load like these Alexia’s and the OP’s speaker "to a given level" with perfection better than any 3000w class-d can." OK, "drive" is the issue you are concerned with, to the exclusion of the much more important question of what an amp SOUNDS like. A more powerful engine will DRIVE a truck better than a smaller engine, but this is irrelevant to what people here care about. My Mytek Brooklyn will have problems DRIVING a very low impedance inefficient speaker to very loud levels. SO WHAT? At 1 to 100 watts, it kills the ML2 for resolution. |
Hi @golfnutz Wow, huge difference in my dislike for particular brands, and being on a crusade. I’ve never disrespected anyone for liking Pass. I’ve never told them they were wrong. I have however said that Pass was not to my taste, for reasons I don’t fully understand, and honestly I write so little about Spectral I’m not sure what I said. It was probably something like I just didn’t do that much for me, but very glad there are readers like you here who track my writing so much. Kind of makes me blush. Usually my comments about Pass are related to people asking for alternatives. In fact I have at times recommended people listen to Pass and Ayre as counterpoints and buy what they like. Please point to where some one has asked for the best Pass amp, and I’ve been there telling them they were wrong. Also, please point to a single post about anything where I tell some one their tastes were wrong. I may not agree with what you like, but I am nothing if not supportive of individuals buying what they like. And that is a major place George and I are different. I think you should buy what sounds good. George on the other hand wants to pull out review after review proving to people what they like is wrong. There’s nothing hypocritical there golf. Further, I don’t attempt to bring out technical data (say distortion) and make a claim that the measurement automatically proves my like/dislike for a brand / model is because of it. In fact, that is kind of key. Sometimes Class D measures differently than a linear amp. That’s very different than saying it sounds better or worse, and that’s where George refuses to accept any of the countless suggestions from a’goners to show how one connects to the other. Sometimes I know a measurement that is related to my tastes, or a listener’s experience, often I do not, or after listening find there is no correlation. After multiple polite suggestions from many a’goners for George to stick to specifics. Specific models, specific experience, he has a real time doing that, and instead relies on tropes. Nothing wrong with George saying "I heard brand x model Y and I did not like it for these reasons." Would love to read that, because those Class D fans are making their cases with specific models, features and sound qualities, something George has pretty much ignored. Another pattern I find useful is "Hey, for x amount of dollars, have you listened to Y brand? I really like them more." and if I am guilty of this, fine. Here is an example of me being not George, after an A'goner asked for help with integrateds :
If you think that sounds like me bashing Pass, I don't know what to tell you. Best, Erik |
@erik_squires I've never seen you pass an opportunity to tell some one who says they like class D why they should not. If there is anything you are passionate about here it seems to be correcting people who like Class D.And you never 'pass an opportunity' to dump on Pass Labs (or Spectral), so that makes you a hypocrite. Eric, people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. If you can dump on Pass Labs or Spectral, than certainly George has every right to dump on Class-D. You cannot have it both ways... |
My original point George was that you never accept anyone's experience with Class D as valid And why should I, if you search I've listened to plenty, I will go with what I hear and what independent measured results show about their ability into these sorts of loads, before I ever believe your subjective opinion on them, you've probably never used on on this sort of "evil load" speaker. As history shows you keep starting Class-D threads to get some conformation or reco on what you hear yourself, because "maybe" your not too sure about Class-D |
And George, we can go through reams of posts where some one says : "I heard a Class D amp and I liked Y about it" well, moments later there you are trying to explain that they can’t like Y because 20 years ago some one measured something, so the poster’s experience must be wrong. My original point George was that you never accept anyone's experience with Class D as valid, or just as important as yours, and that is a type of disrespect I really really wish you would stop demonstrating. |
I'm sorry George, let me restate that. I've never seen you pass an opportunity to tell some one who says they like class D why they should not. If there is anything you are passionate about here it seems to be correcting people who like Class D. Even when an OP specifically asks detractors of Class D to go elsewhere, becuase they wan to read about relative differences between Class D amps, well, in moments there you are, telling them why they need to wait for a tech no one has heard of, or consider a linear amp instead. And in terms of style, you have routinely characterized others and projected your own patterns onto posters, especially me. |
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You are seriously deluded, and twisting words to make yourself look like you know what your talking about, which you clearly don’t. I don’t recall ever mentioning that the ML2 monoblocks are Class-A "in this thread", that’s just a bonus, it's that they are 25w at 8ohms!! and said they can double all the way to 1ohm It would do the same if the bias was wound back and they were just class-B, and would still able to double down to 1ohm, and that’s because it has heaps of current sunshine, and that’s what matters for driving low impedance’s like the OP or Alexia speakers to their best, to a given level as this amp is still only 25w after all. |
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I would if it wasn't warranted, and usually do. |
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George who holds up the Levinson ML2 as the paragon of excellence for technical specs. This Stereophile’s JA’s statement, is the typical case where a 25w amp like the ML2’s with doubling capable wattage current will drive a pig of a load like these Alexia’s and the OP’s speaker "to a given level" with perfection better than any 3000w class-d can. John Atkinson Stereophile Test |
We finally got him to install a pair of ZERO This is just trying to save face. Of course you did, an expensive band-aid fix, that will never get the best from the Alexia, instead of pointing him in the right direction for the right amp even at the cost of maybe an OTL sale. This Wilson Alexia "customer", was sold totally wrong amp for these speakers that have a pig of a load. That with the right amp eg: Gryphon Antilion and similar current pushing demons, will make them sing at all levels. I know as my friend Edgar Kramer owner of Soundstage Australia, owns a pair, and we’ve tried many amps on them, believe me "NO OTL" will drive them anywhere near their full potential, even with a Zero autoformer. https://www.soundstageaustralia.com/index.php/reviews/84-wilson-audio-specialties-alexia-series-2-loudspeakers John Atkinson Stereophile Test HiFi News Lab Report Now back on topic to the OP’s problem of driving his Thiel CS5’s which maybe an even worse/similar load as these Wilson Alexia’s. "Here's a thought!! maybe the OP needs some OTL’s"??????????? |
You’ve now got to be joking!!, out of courtesy I didn’t mention which OTL’s wouldn’t drive these 89db JBL’s 1400’s, but now you leave me no option, they were a pair of your M60’s!!!!! and now your saying they’ll do a nice job on Wilson Alexia!!!MA-1s. Not joking- Wilsons have always been fairly efficient despite their impedance. They seemed to sound just fine to me. They played loud enough too but it was a smaller room IME. We also noted that particular customer was going through power tubes faster, which is no surprise since a lower impedance will cause more of the power generated by the output section to be dissipated in the output section- and that's hard on tubes. We finally got him to install a pair of ZEROs and then the tubes stopped failing, plus he had more power. The Wilsons traditionally have been fairly efficient so none of this should come as any surprise. The national sales manager at Wilson (John Giolas) had our amps for several years. |
golfnutz, In my post, I was not defensive about my Mytek Brooklyn amp. I thanked you for quoting Stereophile measurements whose power capabilities are at odds with the excellent sound quality described in the review and confirmed by my listening. My "SO WHAT" comment was intended to refute George who holds up the Levinson ML2 as the paragon of excellence for technical specs. The truth is that it sounds like muddy molasses at any SPL despite its power specs. But George has never heard it, doesn't care to listen, and merely goes on and on about irrelevant technical subjects. As to your point about the usefulness of independent measurements, I agree. |
@viber6 - no need to get defensive about your Mytek Brooklyn amp. No where did I mention anything about quality of sound from any amp. My comments were specific to mcreyn's question to George. I would also like to add, my post has everything to do with the question asked about Class-D amps for 2 ohm speakers (from the OP), as the Manufacture specs do not align with the measurements from Stereophile. And I'll repeat it again, 'this is George's point about Class-D amps not being suitable for low impedance speakers - make sure they measure as the specs suggest because more often than not, Stereophile mentions the amp will have a hard time with low impedance speakers." Please don't twist my words around again and make this into something it isn't. |
Our OTLs do a nice job on the Alexia, You’ve now got to be joking!!, out of courtesy I didn’t mention which OTL’s wouldn’t drive these 89db JBL’s 1400’s, but now you leave me no option, they were a pair of your M60’s!!!!! and now your saying they’ll do a nice job on Wilson Alexia!!! ???? Probably the hardest speaker know to man to drive. This is just getting too ridiculous for words https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1803629 https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1804702 |
All I’m talking about is the OP’s Thiel CS5’ speakers and today’s similar speakers like nearly all Wilson Alexia ect ect and what will drive them the very best into those varying low impedance’s they have. And that would be one of the linear bjt output brutes, with a power supply big enough that can power Lower Manhattan, ( read that in Stereophile somewhere sounded good). And no Class-D I know could as do it as well not even the 3000w!!! Behringer. The old Mark Levinson ML2 (BJT monoblocks) at just 25w would slay it for sound quality and control "to a given volume". https://ibb.co/X5rfnXL Cheers George |
M.S Electrical Engineering, University of Southern California (2017)Here is more of the text George didn't include which precedes the above text by Jacob VonWagoner: BJT's can give you a lot higher gain. Just take a bunch of components and compare them, and you'll find the BJT's give you better gain characteristics and therefore require fewer gain stages.The words 'gain', 'linearity' and 'bias voltage' tell you that this has nothing to do with class D amplifiers which do not operate their output devices in the linear region. Instead class D amps go from Off to On and spend as little time in the middle (linear region) as possible. This is the reason they are so efficient. Obviously while all this stuff is correct with regards to conventional amplifiers it has nothing to do whatsoever with class D amps. George's remonstrations notwithstanding. |
golfnutz, Thanks for quoting Stereophile on my Mytek Brooklyn amp. George would say it is a mediocre amp because it doesn't increase its output capability much as the impedance is lowered. SO WHAT? It is a budget amp which happens to have accurate/neutral sound within its power limitations. It sounds much more accurate/neutral than the pure class A Levinson ML2 which was a perfect voltage source with hefty power supply. We are here to find amps that reveal more music, not to debate specs. The latter is for academic societies. Specs are useful to rule out very low powered amps for very inefficient speakers, for example. |
@mcreyn - "George, still waiting for you to demonstrate how an amp putting out 200 watts at 2 ohms is flowing more current than one putting out 400 watts at 2 ohms." I'm pretty sure this is George's point. This is from the Pass Labs website - https://www.passlabs.com/press/power-supplies-commentary-consumers: "If the stereo amplifier is rated 200 watts per channel pure Class A, it will draw about 1000 watts all the time, meaning that about 3000 watts of power transformer is called for, no less." Also from the same article on Switching Power Supplies: "This can be a deep subject, but suffice it to say that I believe that some of the same caveats apply to switching supplies as linear regulators. Again, they should be rated far beyond the nominal current requirements of the amplifier circuit, particularly as the switchers I have seen usually degrade badly beyond their ratings. Also, it helps if the power supply capacitors before and after the switcher are very substantial. This is typically not the case, since one of the primary motivations to use switchers is to save money." And here's an example from Stereophile for the Mytek Brooklyn Class-D amp that viper6 owns: Defining clipping as when the THD+noise in the output reaches 1%, Mytek specifies the Brooklyn Amp as clipping at 250Wpc into 8 ohms (24dBW), at 300Wpc into 4 ohms (21.7dBW), and at 400Wpc into 2 ohms (20dBW). I measured clipping powers of 245W into 8 ohms (23.9dBW, fig.4) and 315Wpc into 4 ohms (22dBW, fig.5), both with both channels driven. However, when I tried to measure the clipping power into 2 ohms, the Mytek went into protection mode at 310W (18.9dBW), with any further increase in the input voltage not resulting in a higher output power - https://www.stereophile.com/content/mytek-brooklyn-amp-power-amplifier-measurements I believe all George is saying is that regardless of manufactures specs, it's probably in the best interest of a potential buyer for any amp to have measurements done independently to support the specs. It seems to be more often than not that when Stereophile measures Class-D amps, there's a comment about careful matching to low impedance speakers. |
mcreyn
You are treading on thin ice, publicly questioning moderators decisions, I've seen one other removed from these forums for this. All submissions, whether they be questions or answers, are subject to moderation. Any designated moderator will have to the right to remove content that he or she deems inappropriate. As for your other question, go listen to a pair of 25w ML2 monoblocks, doubling is your key to which sounds better at the 2ohms "to a given level". Not which sounds louder, a PA amp at 3000watts will do this, such as the Behringer NX3000 will do it for just $299 go buy one!!!. https://www.parts-express.com/behringer-nx3000-ultra-lightweight-class-d-3000w-power-amplifier--248-7012 |
George, So what that "a good BJT amp will always drive into these sub 2ohm low impedance’s and do the wattage doubling act better than a Mosfet Class-D even GaN based one The best linear amps that can do it are all BJ" blah blah. The musical resolution at a fraction of 1 watt could be mediocre. But you don't know this because you don't listen or you don't know what to listen for. Don't attempt to refute me unless you can prove that your musical credentials are on par with mine. |
Like I said. Please show just one post from any great known amplifier designer (beside you) that says the opposite! I my view your just shilling with suspect claims of class-d being able to drive these OP's speakers to their max potential that I'm responding to, for your products yet again, in an indirect way, but always in threads that have a potential sale, whether it be your OTL, Preamps, Zero, Class-D now |
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Give up Ralph, a good BJT amp will always drive into these sub 2ohm low impedance’s and do the wattage doubling act better than a Mosfet Class-D even GaN based one The best linear amps that can do it are all BJT M.S Electrical Engineering, University of Southern California (2017) Pros for BJT:And there’s plenty more, I’ll posting them till the cows come home. Please show just one from any great known amplifier designer (beside you) that says the opposite! |
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