Like I said. Please show just one post from any great known amplifier designer (beside you) that says the opposite!
I my view your just shilling with suspect claims of class-d being able to drive these OP's speakers to their max potential that I'm responding to, for your products yet again, in an indirect way, but always in threads that have a potential sale, whether it be your OTL, Preamps, Zero, Class-D now
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You are seriously deluded, and twisting words to make yourself look like you know what your talking about, which you clearly don’t.
I don’t recall ever mentioning that the ML2 monoblocks are Class-A "in this thread", that’s just a bonus, it's that they are 25w at 8ohms!! and said they can double all the way to 1ohm
It would do the same if the bias was wound back and they were just class-B, and would still able to double down to 1ohm, and that’s because it has heaps of current sunshine, and that’s what matters for driving low impedance’s like the OP or Alexia speakers to their best, to a given level as this amp is still only 25w after all.
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Oscillation has nothing to do with whether an amplifier can double power as impedance is halved, and has nothing to do with whether or any such nonsense. This statement is false, and quoting nobody, your inferring that someone said if an amp can double down to 2ohms, it’s also stable (won’t oscillate) Can you point to who said this, or is this just a ******* in the wind statement that someone did, I’ve searched and no one has, not even golfnutz who you quoted. |
nitrobob
I have Legacy Focus mains Very nice speakers but sorry a b***h to drive, neither your amp (mosfet) or a class-D will suffice, they’re just not up to getting the very best out of these Legacy’s That’s a pretty nasty looking impedance and -phase angle graph. Read back at amps I have suggested and you get the idea of what you need. Doesn’t have to be high wattage 50-100w will do, as those speakers are 95db, BUT!! you need gobs of current all the way down to 2ohms, look at what I say about "almost doubling wattage" for each halving of impedance, then go and search for amps that come close to doing this. https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/LEG20FIG1.jpg
(fig.1) reveals that it needs to be used with an amplifier that can deliver high current into low impedances.
Not only are there two minima in the bass of less than 2 ohms, and another of less than 3 ohms in the mid-treble, but there is an amplifier-crushing combination of 3.3 ohms magnitude and 60 degrees capacitive phase angle at 20Hz Cheers George |
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joysjane
At lower levels the music seemed to have lost weight/slam/punch. This loss was in the lower frequencies.
As the volume went up the bottom seemed to increase but, the Kappa 9’s sounded anemic.
After 2 minutes I get some very loud snaps coming out of my EMIT K & SEMIT K drivers on the left channel speaker. I rest my case. At 625W!! into 8 ohms, and 1225W!! into 4ohms and "said to be stable into 2ohms". They didn’t wattage clip, they have no drive into 2ohms. It wouldn’t have mattered if these Kappas had the 3000w Behringer on them, same thing would have happened "no current, no 2ohm drive, no music". They didn’t wattage clip or soft clip as atmasphere would have you believe, they just can’t handle the load and current that they were asked to give, and it’s what I’ve been saying all along. Even a $199 1980’s NAD 3020 integrated "is stable into 2ohms", there’s more than just that, it needs to "almost double" or "greatly increase" it’s clipped" 4ohm wattage into 2ohms also (not just from 8ohms to 4ohms), and that why that spec need to be independently tested "if" ever given. This is why a pair of old Mark Levinson ML2 monoblocks which are only 25w!!!! into 8ohms!! would have been able to drive these Kappa’s beautifully full range to a certain volume level, as they are only 25w, but they can close to double all the way down to 1ohm it’s said. 8ohm 25w 4ohm 50w 2ohm 100w 1ohm 200w https://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/2229206-mark-levinson-ml2.jpgCheers George |
they’re stable down to 1 ohm As I said above, so is an 80’s NAD3020, stability is needed, but that is not the criteria for it to sound good at those types of speakers low impedance’s.It needs to be able to almost double it’s "full" rms wattage for each halving of impedance, from 8 to 4 and from 4 to 2ohms, and I asked Merrill twice, to supply that, and twice the question wasn’t answered. just call Merrill and ask him if they’ll drive the Kappa 9s. Ask him more so will they drive the Kappa’s to their very best, seeing they are very expensive amps. See if he’s a saint or a car-salesman. Cheers George |
golfnutz
Pretty much what I expected. Your experience is basically the same as my except I was using the IcePower 1200AS/2 modules (2.7 ohm rated) with Wilson Watt/Puppy’s. I believe you were using the 1200ASP modules (2 ohm rated). Not just the bass, but I noticed it in the midrange as well. It became very sterile to the point I couldn’t listen anymore. Stereophile also uses the word ’Anemic’ And the Wilson’s are over 92db efficient, but also have a nasty amplifier loading. Same happened to you as I posted above to the Kappa’s. And your 1200AS2 Class-D modules are said to be even better🤦♂️ Stereophile also uses the word ’Anemic’ to describe this behavior when an amp is under powered for a given pair of speakers - which I think is a good descriptive. I tried using subwoofers to ’fill-in’ more musicality, but it really didn’t help that much either. This is classically what happens to "some" Class-D owners "with hard to drive speakers", that is to get a sub to give some more bass weight and to flesh out the lower/mids and mids more, but it doesn’t cure the problem fully Cheers George |
Yeah, I had to send a PM to him a couple of days ago to say, "wassup"!!! where’s the result, did it blow and take the house out?
Cheers George
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My question is why, knowing all the above, you even bothered to make it? It features a custom designed, class-A, input stage
Why even mention it on a class-D amp like it’s "special" (it features!!), as all amps have "class-a inputs" is what I refer to, no one in their right mind would make an input stage Class-B!! |
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C’mon George, are you actually implying that a pair of the 1 ohm stable, 800 watt and highly praised Merrill Veritas mono-blocks won’t make much music on the OP’s Read what I wrote, not what you think or wish I wrote, your just as bad as the other *******. |
Whatever you say or how you screw it, does not make anything right!
End of story! |
Merrill said all of his class D former Veritas and new Element amps are stable down to 1 ohm, George. Yes, they may be stable that’s only half of the equation, so is a $199 30w NAD 3020 integrated from the 80’s, it’s also "stable" at 2ohm loading, and also on the OP’s Thiel CS5’s, won’t make much music though. But when I ask him "twice" to produce "true" rms wattage figures (preferably measured by an independent lab) just before clipping at 8, 4, and 2ohms, I was "then" met with a deafening silence. Only this and also being stable will indicate what’s going with an amp, into serious low impedance’s as the OP’s and many other hi-end speakers have. Cheers George |
Yes it does sunshine, as you both push the class-d BS, that it can drive the speaker loads were talking about here as good as the best BJT amps can, and the biggest laugh your mate says his OTL’s can drive the Alexia’s nicely.
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BJT has nothing to do with a Class-D discussion
Once again, yes it does sunshine, as you both push the class-d BS, that it can drive
the speaker loads were talking about here as the OP (
Thiel CS5)
speakers as good as the best BJT amps
can
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As Class-D devices do not operate in the linear region, EPDR is not a useful criteria for them.
So you believe the atmasphere statement, that his OTL’s can do a nice job of driving the Wilson Alexia’s as well?? also delusional🤦♂️ Give it up you two, looks like your colluding, maybe your his new Class-D partner? Like tweak is with ricevs.
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Post removed Nov 20, 2019
I agree, not worth the effort. Cheers George |
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Didn’t think there was ANY SPEAKER harder to drive than the 9’s.... WOW!
I know the Scintillas were close but DANG! You can add the OP’s Thiel CS5 also CS7, Wilson Alexia to that list also and there are many others. And to me also the "good" ridiculously hard to drive speakers are more extended, tighter more detailed in their presentation, this is usually because of the drivers used are inefficient more so the very complex xovers that are designed to be nearer perfect for these types of speakers create the low impedance loads . There’s no free lunch, easy to drive, simple xovers, efficient drivers, even the use of horns usually have compromises, the above difficult to drive speakers some may say are over engineered, so is a Buggati Veyron ect ect. Cheers George |
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joysjane
Won't be able to find out if the SX-1000's would power my speakers.
The deal fell through.
I say lucky you, that was to me was more divine intervention. Cheers George |
That is one reason why I like the Stereophile test measurements as they can help you to understand about a specific amp. 👍 yep, don’t listen to some of the manufacturers voodoo BS, they’re in sales mode and you know about car/real estate salesmen, you could almost group these guys in the same category |
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To be honest, I'm not sold on what @cascadesphil is saying about his
EVS1200 amp being suitable for his Thiel CS3.6 speakers(based on
Icepower 1200AS1 modules).
Also this thread, we're talking with the CS3.5 Thiels, which are far harder to drive than the 3.6 Cheers George |
joysjane Don’t think your gunna like this It seems the WFS SX-1000 uses the same B&O 1000ASP ICEpower module as the Bel Canto Ref1000M monoblocks. Stereophile say they turned them selves off when presented with a 2ohm load, which easier than the Kappa 9’s load which is a below 1ohm horror load. "Ref1000M monoblock offers very high power from its diminutive chassis. It does work best with higher-impedance loudspeakers" Maybe it’s time to sell the Kappa 9 if you really need to go class-D My friend with Infinity Renaissance 90 little easier load than the 9’s was trying to do the same with Class-D’s, didn’t work out either, went back to his big Krell, which luckily he didn’t sell. Cheers George |
Seems odd to me but can I ask why you are purchasing these amps that are over $3K without even hearing/knowing they can drive these evil Kappa 9’s Good luck btw with these IcePower based modules https://ibb.co/hZJN3q5Good test, looking forward to it and your findings, and hopefully anyone else’s that maybe present, if you could get them to furnish their opinions also. Cheers George |
dsper
Trying to learn. Seriously.
Thanks for listening,
Dsper These are the facts Dsper. you have a great speaker that demands in turn a great Linear amplifer to get the very best sound out them, not one that has compromises. 1:Stereophile bench tests the CS5 "Means that the amplifier with which it is used MUST HAVE ample TO SAY THE LEAST current capability, if the sound is not to become anemic. Amplifiers with limited current delivery to become starved in the low bass <2ohms, with a potentially disastrous effect on dynamics." 2: I have yet to see a Class-D measured by Stereophile to do what good linear amps can into loads <2ohms and that is to "almost" double wattage for each halving of impedance, 8 to 4 to 2ohms. 3: Stereophile I also do not think have ever shown a Class-D full power wattage into 2ohms without it freaking out or switching off, this proves they are not comfortable into 2ohms like linear amps can be. Cheers George |
Here’s a new model that claims it can handle 2 ohms. This amp goes backwards in to 2ohms!!, like I said above with the NAD reference Spec sheet for Icepower 700ASC specifies 2.5ohms minimum. Same deal with this, what it’s true 8ohm, 4ohm, 2ohm "wattage figures"? do it "increase significantly" (almost double) as the impedance goes down. This indicates an amp that will drive effortlessly the OP’s kind of speaker to it’s full potential. Cheers George |
It's also interesting that Stereophile didn't bother reporting specified power rating at 2ohms Yes this is always and indication, that it's not happy doing those loads, it may handle them and make some noise into them, but then so can the NAD3020 integrated, can they get the best from the OP's CS5's? I doubt it very much. Cheers George |
I believe PS Audio Stellar M700 monoblocks
are rated to be stable down to 2 ohms. Into the OP’s speakers this statement means nothing, unless they can back it up with, "this amp can also almost double it’s wattage for each halving of impedance down to 2ohms". You can put a 2ohm load on an 1980’s Nad 3020 integrated and it will remain stable and not oscillate or blow up also. But will it drive to OP Thiel CS5’s? NO!!!! It will make a noise out of them. Will it get the best out of them? "NO WAY IN THE WORLD!" Cheers George |
why not just start a new thread about the theoretical disadvantages of Class D? No sorry, I don’t start threads asking for others to post negatives for me, I prefer to debate and show tech proof, on the pro’s and con’s of anything I feel need to be shown. That would then emulate Eric Squires on what he’s trying to do to Pass amps. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/the-imperfect-amp-pass-or-ayre/post?postid=1815745#1815745BTW:
Bryston 14BSST (15 amp version) beating this is nothing to crow over into the Thiel CS7's. If and amp had 60-100amp capability down into 2ohms and your Class-D better it then you'd have something. Cheers George |
gillatgh
speakers in user are rated at 90db efficiency with nominal impedance of 8 ohms 3ohms minimum. Can a class D amplifier (let’s use 300w per channel)do justice and get the best or close to the best from the speakers?
You ask to get close to or the best from these speakers Show a impedance graph with -phase angle overlay, as what you asked for can’t be answered properly, even using the 3000w!!! Behringer Class-D. You say that speaker has a minimum load of 3ohms, if that’s in the bass and you have it in conjunction with a -phase angle of 50 degrees the amp could be seeing even 1ohm as a load, and I know of no class-D that can take that. That’s why you never see Stereophile tests on Class-D’s that go down into the 2ohm testing, because they mostly **** themselves when it’s done. Cheers George |
I’ve already noted how easily the AS1200 can drive my Thiel 3.7 https://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/1208T37fig1.jpgYes they can drive them, but I’m 100% sure your not hearing the very best from them. As your the one who asked " Can a class D amplifier do justice and get the best or close to the best from the speakers?" Cheers George |
Bel Canto digital amps most often the Ref 1000, I tried those amps with my own speakers and they worked really really well for my classical and jazz listening but not quite so well as the Pass products. I said pages back the "better" Class-D’s like the BC Ref-1000 will work, and probably to the owner sound fine with the op’s Thiel CS-5’s. But "he" hasn’t heard the CS5’s at their best yet until he’s heard an amp that can do <2ohms without breaking a sweat far better, like the Pass X150.8, then he’ll know that Class-D was doing it hard. Cheers George |
Wow!
The Wilson Alexia’s get into areas of the Kappa 9’s for difficult to drive?
Did not know that, thought all Wilson’s were very efficient speakers. Yes efficient 90db like many Wilson’s, but a right b***h of a load like most them also, EPDR (impedance + phase angle) down to 0.9ohm!!! in the bass. OTL’s will drive them, and pigs might fly!! What was that Supertramp track? oh yes "Dreamer" Absolute Sounds Alexia measurements for HiFi Review https://ibb.co/YWSSXPXStereophile measurments on the Wilson WP8’s https://ibb.co/LpTPmXt" " " " Wilson Alexx https://ibb.co/nbGFGtB" " " Wilson Sabrina https://ibb.co/8Kg5hJvCheers George |
Of these only the Thiel is really difficult to drive.
You are in a world of denial now. |
I ask you to provide a list of amps that have guts. I request this, Sorry, if you search I've already given many examples, and you should really know if your debating this in this thread. Cheers George |
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self deleted, cant stoop to his level. |
I just saw the impedance curve. Wow, that’s pretty brutal. They do do this for laughs do they?. Put it this way, what advantage is there for a speaker manufacturer like Wilson, Thiel, ML esl’s, MBL, Sonus Faber JM labs ect ect ect ect to make their speakers so hard to drive, because complexity of design, complex xovers used, that you have to spend big bucks on an amp with enough current to be able drive them. THE ANSWER IS NONE!! They do it to make them as close to perfect as possible, and reward is reaped when driven right with as little compromises as possible. If you want a gutless amp then look for a speaker to suit, they in most cases won’t be designed like the ones above. |
Can you provide some examples? If you don’t know that, you may as well give up, and apply for lawn bowls, just look at the OP's speaker for one. |
Plain and simple low impedance speaker loads are a Bad Idea
Sez you, some of the very best are insanely hard to drive, and why class-d, OTL and you have a problem with that. |
some do some don’t By all means please show the do’s in Class-D, hopefully independently tested, impedance v rms wattage all at just before clipping into 8, 4 and 2ohms, the same distortion figures. |
golfnutz25 posts
Sorry Erik, I won't be engaging in any more of this discussion.
You can find the quotes yourself if you need to see them.
gdnrbob
And, the Angels shall weep . gdnrbob
@georgehifi ,
Can you just drop down the level of sarcasm and argumentativeness a couple of notches?
Bob REALLY!! after saying that to me, https://youtu.be/YTY26k0CA0I?t=6 And the self appointed forum cop has spoken.
golfnutz from his very few posts (25) had more knowledge than either of you. Audiogon's loss if he leaves. |
gdnrbob
@golfnutz,
Give it up. No, no-one has that right to tell some to give it up, if they’re not breaking any forum posting rules, what are you, a forum cop?? gdnrbob
@georgehifi ,
Can you just drop down the level of sarcasm and argumentativeness a couple of notches? "
I would if it wasn’t warranted, and usually do " Just like you tried to tell me to do! Just tell them/yourself not to read it, instead of beating them with your stick |
Admittedly those Chinese modules above, have been "tickled" a little by Pascal, http://www.pascal-audio.com/products/ like EVS "tickles" the IcePower 1200as modules, just so it takes away from being stock off the shelf. From 6 Moons
Jeff Rowland have been one of Pascal’s earliest customers among high-end manufacturers to release a few ‘entry-level’ products based on that module like the bridgeable 525 stereo power amp and the integrated Continuum S2. Red Dragon’s S500 beats with the same heart in a less high-end chassis for roughly half the price. So red Dragons would also be ones that have the same module and they are cheap, under $1k I believe. https://www.reddragonaudio.com/collections/amplifiers |
dht4me
ML 333
Great amp for these types of very hard loads, even if those figures below are a bit wishful, there are always losses. So exact doubling is impossible unless the 8ohm and 4ohm are understated to make the 2ohm look like it's doubling. Nº333 Rated power output 300 w/ch continuous rms power @ 8Ω 600 w/ch continuous rms power @ 4Ω 1200 w/ch continuous rms power @ 2Ω
Cheers George
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