what are the Best Direct to amps Digital Players ?

If eanyone may chime in, I would apreciate the cander.

@ Cerrot, Thats funny, I like your since of humor!

There is really nothing more to say. You just need to hear it. It is a very nice sounding unit, very dynamic, quiet, highly resolving, should come with a coal miners lamp as it digs every little detail out of the CD's.

@ Nutreez69, can you elaborate more on this memory 64u player?

@ Cerrot, Hi, Please tell me more!, this player I believe I need to lean more to auditioning!, No Tubes!, However, I cannot stand a forward sound, your description of presatation, really souds good to me, vocals are suppose to be in front of the sound! please keep me posted with your experiences with this player, and thankyou very much for your reply, cheers.

@Atmasphere

Thanks for the tips on the Minnesota speakers.

The Wadia 121 has adjustable voltage. Can be set for 1v, 2v or 4v.

Memory Player 64U

@ Atmasphere, Hi, I am not being direspectful here, please forgive me, your theory of your post for volts to amps is completly wrong!, how do I know, Krell told me, and an audio engineer here on the gon that owns his own audio company, an example of what I am saying is, My Krell FPB 700cx amp has input of 3.6 volts, guess what that means?, krell said it takes at least that to drive the amp, the amp will take up to 18 volts to input before overload!, most active pre-amps that are made are 8 to 21 volts from their out put to an amps input,, what I am saying, a digital intergrated player whether its digital volume or analog,, you can use from 2.5 volts to 18 volts in the case of my Krell 700cx, Krell them selfs told me to switch my volts out put of my digital player from 2.5 volts to 5 volts to be able to drive my amp better, cheers.

Mateored, High Emotion Audio loudspeakers are Minnesota made, as are Magnaplanar.

I don't see that anyone has mentioned this but the issue of volume control in the digital world is one that is fraught with difficulties. The problem is that most players/DACs put out way too much voltage and so has to be knocked down in order to not overload the amp like crazy!

This often means that with digital volume controls the level will be set rather low, which can rob the signal of resolution. If a passive analog control is used, you often get loss of bass and impact as you run the volume control down from full, which you need to do because most digital products have too much output (4-6 volts is typical and most amps need 1-2 volts for **full** output).

Built-in analog controls work the best, IMO, if they are properly designed and used- they should never be in series with the output of the unit for example- instead they should drive the output buffer of the unit.

The Wadias used to have a set of switches that would lower their output, and so allow them to use the upper ranges of their volume control, which offered better resolution.

I point this out because frequently the only way to get around this problem is with an active line stage that has an analog control capable of giving you good control of the signal without coloration. Right now this is one of the bigger problems faced in the digital world. It seems to come from the fact that the Digital to Analog conversion produces a fairly high output, combined with the fact that most digital designers don't seem to understand how much voltage that amplifiers need. Both are very solvable issues, but poorly understood.

Back to your regular programming...

Im still breaking it in but would not say slightly forward, though, when I had some nice magic going with some female vocal music, I did feel the body of the singer developing just infront of the soundstage, in a curved 3-d impression. Mind blowing experience, actually.

@ Zd542, Hi, Can you come over to the thread, Does eanyone know about the EAR acute 3 thread?, Jafant and me wants to know your dealer hook up, Thankyou Zd542.

@ Melbguy1, Hi, Does this digital unit have a volume control to be use direct to an amplifier?, thankyou and cheers.

@ Cerrot, Hi, Does you K-03 have a forward presatation at all?, cheers.

I'd have to say Meridian 808v5 has most impressed me. It is a truly audiophile cdp, is beautifully designed and built & has an array of analogue and digital inputs. I know one audiophile in another forum I belong to who is mega impressed with it.

Regarding the earlier questions and comments about Wadia - I just had my 121 repaired by them, so they are definitely not completely defunct. It took me a few calls to reach the right person. I got bounced to someone in San Francisco, and then finally someone in Minnesota. They were really nice and fixed by unit for free, no questions asked, even though it was a little past the warranty expiration period. The repair was done in Minnesota.

(BTW, are there any good speakers made in Minnesota? My office system is a Wadia DAC and Bel Canto amp. Would be funny to complete the Minnesota system!

I am breaking in an esoteric k03direct to 2 sanders magtech amps and the sound is pretty spectacularafter 200 hours.

@ ZD542, Thankyou, you are very cool!, I have a good recording of the dark side of the moon, remastered, I will look into this one you have presented, what do you know of EAR electronics?, I just started a thread of this player, due out within the next day or so, waite a minute, LOL!, I just caught onto what you said, Tim P is the designer of what I am looking at for digital, you said he remastered this 25th anniversary Pink Floyd cd, I am not slow!, Lol!, I just learned today who he is!, I thought the name was familiar!, man!, thats awsome, this designer also remasters digital recordings!, thats excitement to me!, I really believe this player would be better than the Aesthtix romulus player, by a long shot, what do you think?

"08-18-13: Audiolabyrinth
I am currious is to why no one has mentioned a player, that of all things was dicussed on a amp thread!, The EAR acute 3 player, whats every ones impressions of this player for direct to amps, the reviews are thru the roof!, cheers."

I can give you 2 reasons. 1. I don't read audio reviews. 2. I forgot it has a volume control.

Now that you know about it, I say definitely listen to it. He's an excellent designer that's talented in many areas. If you end up liking it, I can recommend a dealer that will probably give you a very good deal on one. Also, you may want to check out the 25th anniversary SACD of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon. Its dual layer, so even if you don't have an SACD player, you can still listen to the CD layer. Tim P did the remaster on that one. It has a very unique sound and listening to it may give you some insight as to how he thinks as a designer.

I am currious is to why no one has mentioned a player, that of all things was dicussed on a amp thread!, The EAR acute 3 player, whats every ones impressions of this player for direct to amps, the reviews are thru the roof!, cheers.

Well, I may have great news here, my buddy just tubed rolled his Ayon 2s to spectacular effect!, we both was going to sale our players!, He claimed no more forward sound! huge difference in sound for the better in every way he says!, He put 1972, or 1976, or 1980 nos p-DR 6h30 tubes in it, he will e-mail the exact year!, thats alot more affordable than buying a new player, well see, I may still buy another player and keep the Ayon 2s with these so called super tubes!, cheers to all.

Jon2020, I agree, my first Krell was the fpb 200, I miss that amp, to much current for a second system, I hate getting in the attic and running more electrical lines!, the 300I or 400 will grace our home once again!, we are going to keep working on this system now, in the spring or summer, we will have another 300I or 400 intergrated Krell by then, I already have the cables for it, the Taralabs the one i/c and speaker cables, these cables will make it sing big time!, we used these cables on it before, turned the 300I into a different animal for the better, cheers.

Audiolabyrinth,
You should concentrate your resources on the main system first. The 400 is better but I think the 300i is good enough for a second system. I still have fond memories of it. It was my first Krell amp and it was awesome, being detailed but warm at the same time.

@ jon2020, Hi, We use to own a Krell 300I, that was on our second system, We loved it!, To us, Its the best intergrated amp for the money you can buy on the used market period!, We have never listened to a 400 intergrated, we plan to buy another one for a second system again, we had to sale ours to help pay for the Taralabs zero gold I/C,,, unless you say the 400 is substanially better?

@ Don_s, Hi, I really Had my hopes for the Romulus, Its a fine machine, however, it does not up-sample my stock red book cds to 24/192 format, and I have cdrs that were recorded by folks that I know with state of the art computer systems with costly sound cards, my cdrs are my best software I own!, I love the tube compliment the Romulus has, I just do not dig the transport or the dacs!, you have a awsome player, congrats!, unfortunally, I cannot use it, Aesthetix did say they were working on another player to be introduced, cheers.

I need to ammend my previous post. My Romulus is new to me. I just found some CD-Rs I have that will not play. Some I have play and some do not. They are different brands of CD-Rs made on different computers. So it remains somewhat of a crap shoot.

I can say that the CD-Rs that play sound very good.

Audiolabyrinth,
I have always been enamored of Krell amps. The Krell products I have owned in the past are the junior integrated amps, the 300i and its progeny the 400. The reason why I never upgraded to the bigger amps is that they are pure Class A, which means putting out a lot of heat and at the same time emptying my wallet for the monthly electricity bill even at idle, which could otherwise go towards buying more music.
I have not heard the Cipher but the Evo model before it sounded gorgeous in the showroom. The Stereophile review of the Cipher awarded it Class A as you already know.
You can just get the Cipher with the stock Krell CAST cables. The CAST connection with a used Krell KCT preamp(also very well received by the pros) may just be the ticket to audio nirvana. Well, it's either that or sonic hell but I very much doubt it could ever be the latter.
Cheers!

I am not sure if I misinterpreted something posted above. But if I did then maybe others did as well.

For the record: My Romulus plays CD-Rs (16/44.1) very well. I am spinning a homemade compilation disk as I type.

@ jon2020, I agree!, the exception would be still use what I already own with the exspensive taralabs cables, BTw, Tara makes cast cables to use for krell products! you cannot blame a guy for tring!, I know I am crazy, I mean who in the hell spends this kind of money to enjoy music?, I would laugh too!, Me and the wife have thought serious of doing some cast connections, and a top of the brand krell pre-amp, settle for nothing less!, It would take one awsome pre-amp to better running direct to amp!, I would not knock it to you live with it,BTW, Have you listened to a cipher krell cd-player?, what are your impressions?, Do you own any krell products?, thankyou very much!, I do feel like I am going crazy tring to build this stupid stereo!

Thankyou genleman, all of us are always looking for how we can improve up on our sound, sometimes it works out, and sometimes it does not.Happy Listening.

Hi Audiolabyrinth,
At first, I found you a bit annoying, then I found you a bit hilarious, then I found you to be, like myself, a bona fide audio nutcase. And there is no cure for that for the both of us.
And because we share this last trait, I would like to offer my most humble suggestion to alleviate your conundrum.
You already have a fantastic Krell power amp. So, why not go all Krell to optimise the CAST connection? Buy a Krell Cipher CD/SACD player new($10k list, if I am not mistaken) but get a used Krell pre-amp to go with your power amp. Sell your super expensive Tara IC to be replaced with CAST cables that won't cost an arm and a leg. You should be in sonic nirvana with this all Krell-and-CAST setup.
Cheers!

Hi Audiolabyrinth,
At first, I found you a bit annoying, then I found you a bit hilarious, then I found you to be, like myself, a bona fide audio nutcase. And there is no cure for that for the both of us.
And because we share this last trait, I would like to offer my most humble suggestion to alleviate your conundrum.
You already have a fantastic Krell power amp. So, why not go all Krell to optimise the CAST connection? Buy a Krell Cipher CD/SACD player new($10k list, if I am not mistaken) but get a used Krell pre-amp to go with your power amp. Sell your super expensive Tara IC to be replaced with CAST cables that won't cost an arm and a leg. You should be in sonic nirvana with this all Krell-and-CAST setup.
Cheers!

Audiolabrynth will certainly never need it, but for sake of argument, he'd insist the Docs power the Dialysis machine with his Tara Cobalt :)

Audiolabyrinth, you're welcome, and thanks for the nice words. Good luck in your quest!

Regards,
-- Al

Audiolabyrinth,

I'm glad I was able to help out. From reading all your posts, I know how much it means to you. After all, what in life could possibly be more important than having a good sounding CD player? Maybe Tara cables and a working kidney. But that's as far as I'll go.

@ Audioengr, Steve Nugent, Hi, If you are out there, I need some help with digital, thankyou.

@ Almarg, It is so nice to talk to a engineer, I love it, you and my friend Edorr are awsome!, both of you gentlemen have done me well here with digital, I have spoken to steven I thought in the forums, He always signed off with Audioengr and EmPirical Audio as you said, I give him a chime and see what he may say, thankyou for the two wonderful well said post here!

Audiolabyrinth, as always there are tradeoffs.

If the cable connecting a transport and DAC is not both good quality and a good match for the two specific components it can certainly have major adverse effects on the sound. And whether or not it will be a good match depends not only on its intrinsic quality, but also on a complex and mostly unpredictable set of relationships and interactions between its parameters, including length, impedance accuracy, shielding effectiveness, shield resistance, propagation velocity, etc., and the technical characteristics of what it is connecting, including signal risetimes and falltimes, impedance accuracy, jitter rejection capability, ground loop susceptibility, etc.

On the other hand, combining the transport and DAC into an integrated player can certainly have its downsides as well. Perhaps the most significant potential downside is coupling of electrical noise from the transport mechanism into the D/A converter circuit, where it can cause jitter, and also into analog circuitry.

Steve Nugent of Empirical Audio, who authored the article I linked to, and also posted earlier in this thread as "Audioengr," has far more experience that is relevant to your questions than I do. I see no reason to doubt his opinions on these matters, and so I suspect that in general, in the price range you seem to be considering, a two-box setup would be the preferable alternative. PROVIDED that a cable that is a good match for the particular components is used, and given the unpredictability of many of the technical factors I listed above significant experimentation may be necessary to find the best match. And given all of those technical factors, involving the components as well as the cable, I would not assume that higher cable price necessarily implies greater likelihood of being the best match.

As far as fixing excessively forward sound is concerned, assuming that you are referring to your Ayon player the only suggestion that occurs to me is the obvious one of tube rolling.

Regards,
-- Al

@ Almarg, Hi, thankyou so much for the repost, this is the primary reasons why I do not do two box digital systems,Do you believe useing a high quality one box digital system will yield better sound performances based on what has been said above?,will you loose sound quality with the same signal going thru more cables such as a digital cable?, Do you have some sound opinions for an intergrated digital player with analog or digital volume control, that I may audition?, Is there eanyway that you know of that I can fix a forward sound of a player that I already own?, cheers.

@ Edorr, Hi, Its good to hear from you, The Ayon 2s has volume control, the unit is quite nice, however, the reason of the hunt for another player is during break-in the player sounded great, after 450 hours the sound became forward, roll A front and center!, I have been told alot, but I do not know if eanything can change that sound, I bought the a/c power cable, I cannot use it on the ayon untill I get my amp back from krell, then there is talk of changing the stock tubes to $1,200.00 for 4 nos 1980 reflector Dr 6h30 tubes that will better the sound, I do not believe they can change the forward sound?, then there is resonance control where I basically am an proclaimed expert in, LOL!, the resonance tunning could be the fix, I have to buy the lame devices they have for sale these days to try to accomplish this, the old days, polycrystal products was all you needed!,, I was kidding on the Dcs, I have been told the samething you said about Dcs,, your REf5se is really good, I have read many good things about your pre-amp on the gon,,your plan you have for a pre-amp and cables is what I will do latter when we get more money, it will defiantly take a pre-amp like yours or better, to out perform running direct to amp,,I also own Taralabs, the one cable system, 1- one meter i/c and 6 ft speaker cables thats suppose to go on a second system when we go to rebuild that, had to sale all of it but the cables, to help buy the Tara zero gold i/c!, no regrets as far as the performance goes of the zero gold, the truth is we still miss the second system we once owned! sacrfices!,, I have been asking you about the Esoteric k-03, you have not gave me any feed back on this unit, I have been told the k series is a different animal of a player than the x series of players, I am not sure if I would like the esoteric players?, It is on my audition list thou, wont hurt to listen to one, huh?, they have some esoteric dealers up your way around Atlanta, Ga and in new orleans, LA, meterie, LA. I am still up for whats possible, I will also go digital media later as well, since they are craming that mediam down our throats,saying,, this is the future!, cd-players are dieing,, LOL!, they have a ways before that will happen!, neitherless, I will be ready!,, BTW, Transparent are good cables, nice choice!, Hopeing for more choices out there for a one box intergrated digital player, all ideas are welcome, cheers.

Audiolabyrinth asked me to post in this thread the following comment I made in another thread:

08-04-13: Almarg

What made me think of the question when I posted is that with 2 piece cd players I've always heard HUGE differences between digital cables.

There are many reasons why large differences can be expected between digital cables that connect CD transports to DACs. Not only the type of cable, but even the length of the cable can make a major difference. See this paper for starters.

Basically, in those applications the effects of impedance mismatches between the cable and the components it is connecting, the introduction of noise due to ground loop effects or RFI pickup (both of which are cable sensitive), and other ways in which the cable may affect waveform integrity can ultimately have very significant effects on jitter at the point where D/A conversion is performed within the DAC (to a greater or lesser degree depending on the jitter rejection capability of the particular DAC).

None of those factors have any relevance to transmission of digital data from a USB hard drive to your Oppo, as long as nothing involved is defective. The technical considerations are completely different, and vastly less critical with respect to their potential effect on sonics.

Post back if you have further questions about this.

Regards,
-- Al

Seems like your quite happy with your Ayon. How do you do volume control now?

If you ultimate target is to get a preamp with two additional expensive cables (power and IC), I would just burn my budget on the preamp, get "interim" cables, wait for the right IC and PC to show up used. That is what I did - got myself a (dealer trade in) ARC Ref5SE, waited to get my hands on a pair of Transparent Reference Cables at the right price and got a great deal on a Shunyata PC.

Getting the DCS integrated player is a big gamble, and you may end taking a hit in SQ. From what I gather dCS sound is the antithesis of tubey. I only heard a dCS DAC once and did not like it.

@ Edorr, BTW, The Ayon 2s has spdif/usb connections too., can be used with a computer like a media player.

@ Edorr, I talked to Aesthetix yesterday by phone,turns out that I do not believe the Romulus is as good as The Ayon 2s that I own, The Romulus strictly plays red book only, versus the ayon 2s plays cdrs and up samples red book to 24/192, there is a huge difference in sound in every way 24/192 compaired to red book sound, the Ayon 2s is switchable by remote between the two formats, the difference is not subtle at all!, thou the Romulus likly sounds good, I cannot use it, there is no way it could match the resolving power of the Ayon 2s.,,BTW, The Ayon 2s has connections so you can use it as a transport only, as a matter of fact, I do not know if you are aware the the phillips pro transports are well known to be one of the best, A couple of the engineers parted ways to form their own company called stream unlimited, thus the conception of the pro 2 transport, It plays bad cds with flawless ease to my supprise, we have used other digital players that did not play the same cds!this is the very same transport that is in the Ayon 5s player at retail $12,500.00,, The thing is Edorr, I am tring to not buy more cables for connections right now,We bought the tara zero gold this year, the cobalt power cord this year, the ayon 2s this year, the krell amp is at Krell right now getting totally renewed inside and out, guranteed in writting to be an absolute new amp that will take 600 hours to break-in, that is costing $3,157.00, not bad!,,If we wanted to go the route of a two box system, we already have a good transport, there is outstanding one box intergrated players out there, we just have to find all the options that are available, The Esoteric k-03 looks to be a must audition unit, Its worth doing so, I do not know if its our cup of tea?, we love the sound of tubes with quality solid state, likly as time goes by we will go the route of a state of the art pre-amp, thats costly!, it seems you have to morgage your home to better the sound of running direct from source, I do know there is pre-amps that are better, the cost is $10,000.00 plus to have a pre-amp that will!, then more cables!, so in the infant stage of this system it makes alot of since to obtain a intergrated digital player with analog or digital volume control to get by untill the day rolls around when we can get a pre-amp of that caliber, we would settle for nothing less!, I know its not about how much something cost!, It seems one will have to spend big money to achieve a pre-amp to be that good!, we are back at the drawing board, Dcs makes a good player with volume control, thats an option, I am open to eanything that may work for a one box player,, Happy listening.

I have visited the dealership in Lilburn - 45 minutes from where I live. They have Vandersteen 7s, ayre and audio research electronics. Note that the ONLY way to get any value out of such a visit is to bring your own currently used digital source component and swap them out with what they have on display. If they have any Aesthetix pieces it will probably be the Pandora, not the Romulus. If there is any way to get your hands on a Romulus for in home audition that would be a far more effective way to evaluate. I also believe that if playback of CDr is important to you, you'd be better off getting a used Perfectwave transport feeding a Pandora than getting the Romulus, but if you insist on using a $7K digital cable between the components, this would be a budget/dealbreaker. You could start out with a reasonably priced cable (used), wait for the tara labs to show up used and then swap cables. Just a thought.

I asked my question about balances/single ended, because you could get an MSB transport (UMT plus) and their entry level Analog DAC. You would connect using the I2S Pro interface with CAT6 cable. If you forgo the expensive powerbase, you can just about assemble this for $13K streetprice. The Analog DAC is however a single ended design, although it does have a XLR connection. The fully balanced platinum DAC IV will set you back a few grand more.

With the MSB Transport / DAC, you are set-up to play DSD downloads from disc (or USB stick) and SACD using native DSD between transport and DAC, something you cannot currently do and which none of the other setups you are considering would support. If you are into classical, this would be very compelling, since their is tons of content in native DSD. Non-classical - not so much.

@ Edorr, I have balanced running direct to amp, The Krell 700cx has no single ended connections, it has krell cast and Balanced, I thought that was weird my self, all my previous Krells had RCA etc...,, One one-meter balanced Zero gold from source to amp, another option I thought of is a Ayon 5s player, it is on my list too., I will try to call Aesthetixs today and ask them about their Romulus player, It is balanced circuitry witch is a bonus with a true balanced amp I have,, I bought this Taralabs cobalt power cord with oyaide plugs to go on source, 6-28-13, this will help any source sound better, I hope!, cheers.

@ Zd542, wow!, That was really cool of you to do all this that you just did!, I will make the trip to Liburn, Ga,,, you done some grat research fot me, thankyou so much, I even have a choice on pricing with a list of dealers that you provided, you know its like buying a car, one dealer can beat the next with pricing,, cheers.

Do you have single ended Tara labs cables running into your amps or balanced?

Audiolabyrinth,

Since you're not too familiar with Aesthetix, I went to their website and had a look at their dealer page to see if I can recommend one that I know. It turns out that they only have 17 dealers in the US. Of those 17, I've done business with Audio Connection in NJ, Audio Center in FL, Sound by Singer in NY and Apex Audio in CO. I also bought something from Analog Shop in NY over the phone but I haven't been to the store. Singer is just OK (actually, I'm not sure if they are still in business), but the other 3 are exceptional. This tells me that they are one of those manufacturers that are very picky about who they allow to become dealers. Even though you haven't heard of Aesthetix, its a very popular brand and if they wanted to double or triple their number of dealers, they could do so almost over night. That's no guarantee that you'll get good service, of course, but for me personally, I would expect the dealer to be better than average.

Where I'm going with all this, is that your closest Aesthetix dealer is Audio Alternative in Liburn GA. Mapquest shows it to be about a 6 hour drive from Mobile. If it were me, I wouldn't hesitate to plan a trip to the store. Call first if you decide to go, but its almost certain that Aesthetix requires that they keep a Romulus on display since there are so few dealers.

Also, some of the other posters recommend going with a transport/dac combo. I know you don't want to go that route, but there is a pretty decent case to be made for doing so. All I'm suggesting is that if you have the opportunity to demo separates in your search, it wouldn't be a bad idea to do some listening. Maybe even bring a CD player you know well for comparison. If anything, it will be a good learning experience.

@ Edorr, You are absolutly correct, I did pay alot less for my I/c and power cable than retail, I bought them here on the gon for a savings nobody has EVER heard of, atleast not me!, ,now I do have more money tied up with the rest of the cables, I also own the Taralabs the one i/c and speaker cables to be used on a second system when we rebuild that system, we sold that system to help buy the Taralabs zero gold i/c 1-meter, nothing wrong with buying used if you get the cable in question authenticated as I did,, It appears we have buying used in common, If I did go the approach you have mentioned I would settle for nothing less than the Tara zero gold digital cable, I would be un-happy if I down graded my sound to use a two box digital system, the field is wide open, I just need a volume control intergrated digital player, It can be cd/sacd, etc.. analog volume preferably, or high quality well made digital volume control, you know like transformer based volume control like the Ayon has got,, this may be temporary a couple of years untill I can get a $10,000.00 and higher cost point pre-amp, thats what it will take to out perform what I am doing here, I believe I love analog turn table sound, thats exspensive for what I would build one like,,Edorr, you are a very well seasoned audiophile, that makes it easy for me to talk to you, the reason I have such cables is to me they are an important componet in the system, your last post was spot on with me, funny, it was like you were psychic or something,LOL!, You are the best!, you have really helped me, thankyou, you are a gentleman!, I trust your recommendations as well, they are very sound!, keep the ideas rolling, I will look into what you said above, nothing is not under my micro-scope period that every one has said on this thread concerning digital, you have not gotten to my questions concerning the Esoteric k-03 and the Aestetix Romulus, Have you heard these units before?,, Happy listening.

Not necessarily. We all have out own rationale of how we spend audio money. I personally never look at how much I spend on a piece, but at depreciation. If audiolabyrint bought his cable at a very high discount (say 40% of retail or less). His cost of ownership of the cable is very low, because he can always resell at a small loss. I do it all the times - have spend thousands on used Transparent audio cabling and always got all of my money out. However, on the latest greatest digital gear, you take big hits. So $13K in digital will be worth half in 2-3 years time. Good reason to cap the budget.