It's seems crazy that someone who's system is outfitted with Tara labs zero gold would be limited to 13k retail for their source component. I think the other suggestion that you consider a transport is the right one. There is hardly a choice available or very limited for what you want. |
Audiolabyrinth, I think you need to rethink your approach. Your parameters (<13K, single box, volume control, plays CDR, DVD-A) narrow the field to a very limited number of players (potentially zero). The problem is once you identified that player (a) you probably have to buy at full price, and (b) you are missing out on better options. So here is my thinking. Assuming rackspace is not an issue, it appears a single box is needed to avoid having to buy a pair of very pricey analog cables. Fair, enough. Just get a digital transport that meets your needs. Highly acclaimed PS Audio Perfect Wave transports are showing up in droves (nothing wrong with the transport, just many people moving away from spinning discs). Pick one up for $1,500 (MSRP = $4,000), and your in business. (of course you need a half decent digital cable - $500 tops). Now you have a very wide field of D/A converters with volume control to choose from, in your price bracket (you have around $10K left), and endless reviews / opinions. Also, you can now keep your eyes open for a used DAC that makes it to your shortlist.
First think to ask now is are you OK with digital VC, do you want analog VC, and if so how important is it is tube based. If you want tube, Aesthetix Pandora is a good option, and I'm sure there are others. If you want analog, you can get entry level MSB. A highly respected DACs with digital VC is Berkeley Audio design, well within your budget.
The advantage of this approach is you have many, many more options, and have access to the used market, and in my opinion you will end up with better sound for the money, simply because DACs is where the action and hence innovation is these days in high end audio. |
I have owned two. EAR Acute and now Ancient Audio. Both are excellent tube based players, but the Ancient Audio actually includes a pre-amp circuit with additional inputs. |
@ Edorr, Hi, Sorry about the confusion,$20,000 to $50,000 is out of my price reach for digital!,the Boulder 1021 has been out for a long time, I did not know it had volume control?, Thankyou for patiently putting up with me, you are a gentleman indeed,The Ayon 2s is a cd player, it is not red book only player, it plays CDRs but not sacd, I am confused about the Romulus, Do you beleieve it plays more than red book only?, the specs say it plays red book only on the transport, I really do not know what their version of red book is, to me, thats standard cds, nothing else, I would like a player that plays most of todays modern medias, A cd player or a cd/sacd player, this Romulus is a great recommendation!, maybe I should give them a call next week to see if their player can play my cds, CDRs that are recorded really good!, and, of course I have standard cds, The CDrs are dvd a audio and 24/192 cdrs,, My price range can go up to retail 13,000.00, ,like most audiophiles, used is good to, try to save money is always nice, Edorr, My member friends believe your recommendation of the Romulus is more my tast the the Esoteric K-03 in sound, these are the two so far on top of my list amongst others, what do you think of this new esoteric K series sound?,, cheers. |
The Romulus looks very interesting. Audiolabyrinths aspirations for a single box transport / DAC resonates with many audiophiles who are trying to keep the box count down! |
You can also look into the boulder 1021 |
I'm a little confused here. Basically - with a few exceptions - there are: (1) CD players, (2) 2 channel CD/SACD players, and (3) Universal players. It is my understanding the Ayon 2 is a CD player, as is the Romulus.
In any event, if you have some serious money to spend, and want to go the Universal players route here is what you could do. Get the spanking new MSB Universal Media Transport (UMT) plus and an MSB DAC. This transport will connect to the DAC via I2S over a piece of CAT6 wire. You'll also need one of the MSB powersupplies.
Depending on what level DAC you buy you can spend between $20,000 and $50,000 on this three piece stack. It will give you the best DAC around (according to many), play every disc on the planet, and serve as a music streamer. You can do multi channel and video as well.
While not a single component, they are thee neatly stacked chassis, and since the DAC has volume control you won't need an extra set of expensive analog cabling.
I will be auditioning an MSB UMT plus transport myself shortly - not for CDs (I ripped my entire collection), but as a network streamer for 2 channel, and a disc spinner for Multi-channel (SACD / Blu Ray). |
@ Eddor, man, you are absolutly right, it is on the top of the list to listen to, thanks to you!, I never heard of this brand or there digital players!, One thing i do not like about it is the transport, it plays red book only cds, thats kind of crazy in todays world to do that, My ayon 2s has a phillips pro 2 transport that plays everything but sacd!do you know a player cost no object that is an intergrated disc spinner with the volume control, etc..?, cheers. |
I was in line to get an in home audition on the Aesthetix DAC, but got impatient and bought an EMM Labs DAC2X when one showed up for a great price. I have since moved on to MSB Signature Plus and added an ARC RefSE preamp for good measure, but if I was shopping in the sub 10K price bracket and wanted an integrated disc spinner, this one would be top on my list. |
@ Edorr, Have you listened to a romulus player?, I finally got to research for hours this player from your info, I must of misspelled something before when I tried to look into this player, A brand alot of audiophiles look over is vincent!, I had one with the same 12ax7 or and the 12au7 tubes in the player, and yes it was a true balanced player like the aesthetix Romulus player, no 6922 tubes in the vincent, the sound description of the Romulus is exactly what i owned before, except one major difference!, the vincent had the most deep articulate bass then eany player I have experienced in my life, so imagine a full rich sound and all the rest of the attributes of the romulus with bass to die for!, get this, the vincent had volume control, 4 channel balanced with burr-brown 1796 dacs, all this for $2,800.00 !!, it was the most musical player I have ever owned!, I had to get my money back because we thought the player was bleeding d/c back into my krell amp, come to find out the Krell had issues that is now being taken care of at krell!, and the vincent is gone!, the vincent threw a huge soundstage to boot!, alot of audiophiles know nothing of vincent, the say, oh, its made in china and engineered in germany, a entry level product, wrong!, the vincent sounds a hell of alot better than my $6,350.00 Ayon 2s !!!, more musical eanyway!, I will go and hear a romulus player, if it does not beet the vincent, I do not need it, I would say that is a tall order to fill!,, I do know the romulus is closer to the sound I prefer, I thankyou Edorr for this info, we will see how this stacks up against the Esoteric K-03 and vincent player, and what ever else someone can recommend, Edorr, you are on the right track in helping me here, I really do not believe I will like the esoteric sound!, who knows, I may get another vincent player like I had!, The Romulus sound that I research is what I want, with the exception of not having the bass I love!, I hate lean sound!, I would also like to know if the Romulus sounds forward sounding at all? the vincent did not, the soundstage was spot on!, very huge, and came to the middle of the listening room like music is suppose to do!, Edorr, I hope you can answer some of these questions I have here, thankyou so much for your help, cheers. |
Audiolabyrinth,
Aesthetix is a very good company. I completely forgot to mention the Romulus in my other posts. I haven't heard it myself, but I would recommend you consider it based on the build quality and sound quality of their other products. As Edorr says, they are very well known for making some truly excellent preamps. If I could choose someone to make a volume control for my CD player, it would be them. You shouldn't have too much difficulty finding a dealer. Its a fairly popular brand. I know you don't have anyone close, but there's a good chance you will find it at one of the dealers you plan on taking a trip to. |
A google search for "Aesthetix Romulus" will get you right there, but here it is. It is basically a Pandora DAC with a transport. You are more likely to find a review of the Pandora than the Romulus.
http://www.aesthetix.net/saturn.php?product=digital |
@ Edorr, Hi, I cannot seem to find this on the net, Is it possible you can post a link here to their site so I may look over the Romulus?, thankyou. |
Aesthetix is a boutique in California, best know for tube amplifers, mostly its preamps. They also build a DAC (the Pandora), that appears the be a very good performer, and uses it tube technology for volume control (1K option I believe). I was going to audition one but never got around to it. They also have a version of the DAC with build in disc transport (the Romulus). If you're interested I may be able to hook you up with a dealer that may be willing to get you unit for in home audition. |
Hi Edorr, I am all ears here, I no nothing of this brand, If you do not mind, and I hope I am not asking to much?, can you tell me all there is to know of this unit?, thankyou. |
Audiolabyrinth, you should give the Aesthetix Romulus a whirl.... |
@ Audioengr,, Hi, No offense to you, I believe you would absolutly be wrong in this case, I own Taralabs zero gold interconnect, can you imagine buying more cables at the cost of these cables?, even the digital zero gold is exspensive, and after hearing what this interconnect does, there is no way I would use an inferrior cable to degrade my sound!, cheers. |
@ Ddd1, Hi, Thats hilarious!, for some reason I believe your post,It has real world scenarios. cheers. |
Audiolab - you will ultimately make many compromises in sound quality by combining transport and DAC, and you will probably spend the same amount of money.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
when I am hearing huge very low bass, she says I am crazy, she does not hear it!, and then at the same time, the woman, the wife can hear higher notes!, explain that one?, Is it because they have smaller ear drums? It's just genetic adaptation. Over the millenia, women's ears have evolved so they could hear the highs better (to help them hear a baby crying, etc.) and conversely their response to lower frequency sounds has decreased, such as the sound of a deep male voice asking them to get you a beer. |
Gentleman,, I need an all in one player, transport and dac, not a dac, then a transport, cheers. |
@ sounds real audio, Wow!, I am telling the wife of this post, we argue at times that when I am hearing huge very low bass, she says I am crazy, she does not hear it!, and then at the same time, the woman, the wife can hear higher notes!, explain that one?, Is it because they have smaller ear drums?, sounds like cables, LOL!, the bigger gauge has deeper better bass, the smaller wires in a cable are better with finese and higher notes!mmmm, they are on to something here,LOL! |
Rrog
Don't forget now:
" Reaching down to the lowest octave creates a realism in music not otherwise experienced. Even though the fundamental note may only go down to 40Hz there are overtones reaching far below giving music the proper foundation.
It's not a guy thing and it has nothing to do with balls. Men have larger eardrums than women giving them the ability to hear low frequencies better than women. |
Thankyou gentleman, I have read these post, they are alot of help, thankyou so much.look forward to more post, cheers. |
Audiolabyrinth,
Here's some feedback on the Aesthetix DAC:
http://forums.theaudioforums.com/showthread.php?321-Aesthetix-Romulus-CD-Player-DAC |
I have a wyred 4 sound dac 2. It is currently hooked up direct to amp. At first I thought I liked the sound better with preamp (ps audio hca with matching power supply), because it seemed a little more warm and full, but now I like it without the preamp. Very transparent and now seems to be getting more bass and warmth. May be time to sell preamp and power supply. |
The only way to get any meaningful information from an in store audition is to bring your own DAC and line it up against a few contenders. Many (some?) dealers ship components to your home for audition - some factory direct sellers also do. I would strongly suggest you consider going down that path. My personal strategy is to buy a piece I am interested in used, try it out and resell if I don't like it. While not possible for all DACs (some never show up used), for some of the contenders in the sub $2K used category this is a good used market (e.g. PS audio Perfeectwave, Bel Canto DACs and others), making this a good decision making process. |
@ Edorr, thankyou, That will not be necessary, I am taking all this in, and then go and audition the players at a store where ever they are sold at, there is no dealers for top high-end here where I live, cheers. |
@ Gocubs999, Hi, That was information I will defiantly use!, Thats real good to know, Thankyou. |
Audiolabyrinth, I was in line to audition the Aesthetix Pandora in house, but got an EMM Labs DAC2X instead. I have since moved on to MSB Signature IV plus, and Arc Ref 5SE preamp. However, if you're interested I can hook you up with a dealer who might get you a Pandora for in house audition. |
@ Edorr, Hi, I hope I am not a burden, I would like to ask, Have you listened to this player, can you describe some of the sound attributes that are good and bad?, thankyou. |
Most of the posts I have browsed through indicate the K-01 is a 10%-20% improvement over the K-03. If that is true then I can say with relative confidence that picking up a K-03 w/ BelCanto's RefLink USB Converter ($1,500) gets you very close to the performance of the K-01. That is if you plan to use the K-03 for Computer Audio playback. I conducted an A/B comparison using the RefLink and without (Using the Audioquest Carbon USB's). There is a noticeable difference in soundstaging, transients, and dynamic range when using the RefLink vs running straight from the headless Mac Mini to the Async USB input on the K-03. It simply removed additional digital artifact then without. In fact, I would recommend getting a high quality USB converter for anyone who has a K-03 or K-01. Finding a local dealer that can provide a demo unit would be a sound choice to determine if you experience the additional improvement I have experienced. |
Yes, the Aesthetix Pandora. Analog tube VC. |
Is there eany tube players with its on volume built into the player? |
Hi everyone, I Thank everybody here, I am still looking for more answers, look forward to your post, Happy listening. |
@ Denon1, I just read a old forum where you owned the k-03!, now you have the k-01, If eanybody would know the % difference in sound, that would be you!, LOL!, you lived with both players, to me, thats way better than just mere listening to the players!,Congrats on your k-01!, Man, you got me really interested in the K-03 player, I have seen some here on the used market, with-in my range to get sooner than later versus a new player!, cheers! |
@ denon1, Thankyou for the info, I have to admit thou, your k-01 is very appealing to me!, $20,000 is alot of money!, Denon1, In your opinion, do you feel the k-03 is better than the Ayon 5s?, they both are in the same ball park at the price point,That is suppriseing that you said the k-03 is 80-90% of the k-01!, Alot of people have said to me that the k-03 is not in the same league as the k-01!, I trust your opinion on the 80 -90% LOL!, because you have good tast in amplification, Krell!,, How long have you had your k-01 to get the 700 to 750 hours you have?,, BTW, who makes the dacs for esoteric k-01, k-03?,, Thankyou Denon1, I am happy to learn all this from you!, cheers to you! |
Audiolabyrinth,
yes I did, and to me it is about 80-90% of K-01,
I think K-03 is currently represent a sweet spot in esoteric line. You will happy with it and yes the digital volume control on K-03 has the same implementation as on K-01, it is just driven by a lesser number of DACs (4 on each side instead of 8) but still will provide with great sound using your krell. If you get to audition K-03 make sure that the filter and upsampling combo well burn as well as the digital volume control option (ATTN on) with at least 400-500 hours. |
@ Denon1, This is why I started this thread!, To get a better source!, I apoligize for the dac mistake I thought was in the k-01,k-03,,, Your description of the sound stage has my attention!, One thing I can disagree with you on is the cables, years ago I took a $300.00 yamaha cd-player with tara the one model cables and extreamly imbarresed a spectral digital unit that was thousands of dollars, I am sorry, I agree that the source is very, very important, no where near as important as cables by a long shot!, The spectral digital had mit top tier cables on it to boot, thousands of dollars more!, I have done these test many times to bewilder people for kicks and grins!,, eany way, lets get to source talking, First, I was hopeing you could answer all my questions I had in my last post?,, I appreciate your help, I want to go and audition a k-03 now!,, Have you listened to a k-03?,,this is important!,thankyou Denon1. |
Audiolabyrinth
First of all esoteric k-01 as well as K-03 uses katest AKM 4399 32 bit DACs - more advanced than burr-brown 1792 . K-01 uses 8 dacs per side and K-03 4 dacs per side. Comparing K-01 with ayon cd5s, I heard taller and deeper sounstage from K-01 with better imaging, and of caurse details. I understand that you using cables to get focus and resilution, but if source cant extract more details in the first place - no cables will resolve this issue down the chain. Both K-01 and K-03 when propelry burned are better sounding players (to me and in my system) than ayon cd 5s and your ayon cd 2s way below all of them. Your cables and amplifier on a higher level than your source. Please dont underestimate the importance of the great source. |
@ Denon1, Hi, Did the Ayon 5s have a bigger, better sound stage than the k-01?, Have you listened to the k-03?, I believe you have burr-brown 1792 dacs in the esoteric players, I owned the 1792 dacs in a cary player and thought they were analitical on the player, they did not sound natural, very lean in the bass,They had resolution,and refinement, unless esoteric found a way to use these 1792 dacs, they did not sound musical at all to me, alot of hi-fi fire works, but not realistic sounding compaired to live music!,, You are right about the Ayon 2s player, I had mine less than 90 days and it blew some tubes, infant tube failure, or something else all together!, It arrives at usa tubes today for repair!, I do not like usa tubes, poor service communications after the sale!, we basically cussed each other out!, I will never buy nothing from them again!,,The ayon 2s soundstage is small, and is not deep enough for me, and forward sounding without the tubes in the power supply to color the sound to have a bigger sound stage like the Ayon 5s player, I do like the treble of Ayon and the 1704 dacs, the best I have heard, extreamly detailed and smooth and refined, the mid range I hate, and the player sounds lean compaired to other players I have owned, Alot of money for the Ayon 2s to sound like this!, In the old days you got alot better sound for a whole lot less money!, The Ayon players are beutiful units, some of the best chasiss I have seen with Digital!, LOL!, I do not want a looker in my room, its all about the sound for me!, How would you copaire the 5s to the k-01?, I know its more refined and more resolving,How would you compaire the sound stages?,, Denon1, I allready have extreme resolving power and focus on my system,My cables do miracles!, I own the Taralabs The Zero Gold I/Cs and Taralabs cobalt power cord, Taralabs omega gold speaker cables!, the cables cost so much, I do not want to buy more I/Cs!, LOL!, Thats one of the reasons I run direct to amps!, I agree with you whole heartly!, I do need alot better digital player for my cables and my amp!, Denon1,, I have only been tring to build this system since april 2012!, the Ayon 2s that I still own is my 3rd player!, I will sell my ayon and try to get into a musical top notch digital direct to amp player, thus this thread,I love the sound of some tubes, they just seem like they have way to many problems!, I have listened to years ago solid state digital players that put tube players to shame in every aspect of the sound comeing out of speakers!,The sad thing here is I have to make long road trips to audition players, BTW, I have not done!, after going thru this many players, LOL!, Its high time I audition before I buy!,, your Krell is 100kohms?,, I enjoy talking to you, by having or had similar equipment this helps!,, cheers! |
The key here is the volume control technology. There are only three that compete with the very best preamps:
1) DACs that control volume by adjusting the reference voltage
2) Transformer-based line-stages added to DACs, such as this one:
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-music-first-classic-silver-cryoed-transformer-line-stage-2013-06-29-preamplifiers-97759-black-butte-ranc-or
3) Line-out of a high-drive output DAC to amps directly and use digital volume control - least attractive and most dangerous.
All of these require that the output stage of the DAC be as good as the very best preamps on the market, including drive strength, output impedance and power delivery.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Hi Audiolabyrinth,
Yes I did own ayon 5s with upgraded tubes and did run it direct to krell. The overall sound threw huge soundstage but has been missing some focus and refinement and also had some noise because of its high gain on the output.
I hate to say it, but ayon 2s not on par with ayon cd 5s and not even close to esoteric k-01 and K-03. You are for sure missing what your krell can do. The reason I sold ayon 5s is because of looking for the more long term front end solution and more universal player (ability to play SCAD and better DAC) which esoteric K-01 and K-03 is perfectly represent.
Yes K-03 has volume control.
I love what esoteric K-01 can extract from cd/scad and its overall sound that after 700 hours of burning became liquid but so resolving with no digital artifacts. Plus its USB input and its DAC and volume control make it truly outstanding device. I would say the same about K-03 just in a little smaller scale. |
@ Denon1, Didn't you own a Ayon player before?,, can you describe the sound of thr K-01?, does the k-03 have volume control?, cheers! |
@ Denon1, Hi, I have a krell 700cx that is at Krell right now being totally renewed, inside and out!, its only 8 years old!, Ray Mulchler, the service manager there said that my amp will perform better than before!, they are putting better than the original caps in side of it, and be prepaired to do 500 hours of break-in or a little more!, Its costing me $3,157.38 to do all this!, I have an Ayon 2s now that runs direct to amp that I am not very fond of!, The entire sound of that player sounds good, as far as treble, and resolution!, I do not like the little forward sound that it does at all!, thats part of the reason of this thread!, this is my 3rd player since april 2012!, my Krell 700cx has 100kohm!, likly the same as your Krell!, I just bought a Taralabs cobalt power cord with the up-graded oyaide plugs to use on the ayon or whatever else, I will not be up and running till my amp comes back from Krell, so what do you think here?,, cheers! |
Audiolabyrinth, I use Esoterick K-01 dirct to my krell 302e. Great sound. I tried ARC REF 5 and esoteric own
c-03 and preffered esoteric k-01 direct for its more intimate and more refined (purer) sound. The key is amplifier input impendance needs to be at least above 50K for this type of conection (CDP/DAC direct to amp) to work with good results. Of caurse if one want to add some tonal color to the sound, the good tubed pre-amplifier will do.
I had Waida S7i two years ago, no match to esoteric k-01, unlesss highly modified, and esoteric is build much better. |
@ Krell_man, thankyou for your post. |
@ Zd542, Hi, I feel the same as you do, and I agree with all that you said in your last post!, I like Wadias sound, I do not want to be stuck with a product that can no longer be serviced!, thats a bummer!, thankyou Zd542. |
@ Richlane, Thankyou, I was hoping there would be more choices out there!, It would be nice to have a flood of choices with what i am asking, that way, I can spend weeks auditioning them all, and have a good choice instead of a choice between a coople of players and regret it later!, thankyou! |
Audio...
You may want to check out the TotalDac D1-Dual, they also offer a single DAC version and a tubed version.
There are 1 or 2 reviews of it at 6moons and there has been some nice talk about it over at whatsbestforum as well as some limited talk here.
I haven't personally heard it myself, but the comparisons to the MSB Diamond DAC had me intrigued.
Rich |
