I would second the idea of NOT ever buying a used cartridge/stylus unless you know the seller well. @chrisoshea We are talking about NEW OLD STOCK cartridge, not a USED CARTRIDGE? Do you know what is New Old Stock ? Never used, never mounted, like new. Astatic and Glanz are way better cartridges than your Ortofon 2M series, but the cost of the Astatic MF 100 with LineContact stylus from that Japanese seller is just $280 (with free shipping worldwide) and the cartridge is NEW (unused). Nude LineContact stylus, you can buy 3 cartridges for the price of one 2M Black for example. Instead of a spare stylus which is cost $500+ anyone can buy 2 x Astatic MF100 cartridges (with nude LineContact stylus and Moving Flux generator) for the price of 1 Ortofon stylus. Not bad if the cartridge is NOS, don’t you think so? Do you know how many of us have bought Astatic and Glanz ? Simply seach audiogon and you will find all the info. I would like to remind anyone who's afraid to buy even used cartridges that you can always return a cartridge with no loss on ebay under paypal buyer's protection (if you think the cartridge is not as advertized), this is simply guaranteed for any purchase on ebay with paypal payment. I think it would be much more problematic for you to return a new Orotofon if you don't like it than any items purchased on ebay. Some people just don't want to learn about simple rules for ebay policy and paypal protection. |
Here is a pro-fun suggestion. It may not exactly be about a direct path to the highest upgrade, but as implied by the budget of the OP I actually think it will in the end be a good milestone in the ascension to higher audio:
(1) Upgrade to an Ortofon 2M Bronze. It's a noticeable upgrade without being a quality mismatch with a budget turntable.
(2) With the rest of the budget, get a tube phone preamplifier. Pro-Ject makes a bunch but the most fun I had with a tube phone preamp was the Yaqin MS-12B. Not the quietest in the world, but the ability to find decent old stock 12AX7 and 12AU7 tubes (which can be pretty cheap) and roll tubes, change sounds, is a ton of fun. And you can use the thing as a line level preamp too!
Overall there will be some initial sound improvement with the potential for more as you find tubes.
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@jji666 why do you think a tube phono stage (especially a cheap one) is a good idea ? After a years of tube rolling with some expensive NOS tunes i ended up with SS gear and it is so much better. Regarding the phono stage i think the tube must be avoided.
As for the stylus upgrade you're right. |
I am listening to an old NOS Sonus Gold Blue MM cartridge. I also have an older Pickering XSV 3000. After listening to these cartridges, I see no reason to entertain MC cartridges beyond my Lyra Delos. No reason. I am getting older so maybe my ears are going but on the 1200G these MM cartridges sound just incredible.
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@jji666 why do you think a tube phono stage (especially a cheap one) is a good idea ? A few responses: (1) I introduced this as a pro-fun suggestion. Tube rolling, especially if one has never done it, is pretty fun. Plus with a relatively inexpensive piece of gear the stakes are low. (2) "Cheap" is in the eye of the beholder. The OP’s budget implies "cheap" relative to many posters here, but you can get a phono preamp for well less than $100 that technically does the RIAA curve correctly (not that I would...). A $200-$400 phono preamp can be pretty decent and about what is appropriate as a mate for the turntable. (3) Audio is a journey. While I am usually of the mindset that when you have the upgrade itch you are better off focusing on one big leap upgrade versus a bunch of smaller purchases, analog/phono based upgrades go steep pretty quickly. I was thinking that tube rolling would be a fun experience and allow for an exploration of various sounds based on tube etc. (4) I did say that the MS-12b is not quiet, so I can see your point. However, short of power tubes that can be much, much more expensive, I found that tube rolling with a phono preamp made the greatest difference relative to rolling in other gear. Your mileage may vary, but that was my experience. (5) Note the OP's name... Point being, if the OP wants one of those experiences where he/she wants to relisten to all the vinyl through a new lens, this would be a good way to do it. Spending only on a cart upgrade as with the current TT, and the OP doesn’t have the budget to really do a great TT upgrade and new cart, would likely top out performance based on the TT ceiling. A tube phono preamp is a way to try out different sounds and enjoy an analog feel with old school tubes on that budget. |
Chakster - I'm going to try that Astatic MF100 on your recommendation - I do most of my listening with top flight MC - have curtly installed A90/Lyra Olympos/ Lyra Atlas/ Ortofon Cadenza Black/ and the 2M Black on a "red" body :-) - you know the thing that can't be done
Good Listening
Peter |
@pbnaudio good, remember it was one of Raul’s favorites back in the day in MM thread. For higher price that seller may have Glanz MFG-610 LX (you can ask). Glanz is better (different cantilever and different tip), but for double price. The seller is legit, some other audiogon members bought stuff from him (me too). But for whatever reason you can always return a cartridge under paypal buyer's protection with no loss. |
I think @chakster is a little ignorant when it comes to this issue. I've upgraded tone arms (which a TT upgrade would do) and used the same cart. The sound improvement was significant. Putting a shibata tip on an ortophon blue is like driving a boom box with a 300w amp. Jus' sayin'
Rollin
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There is also an Astatic mf300 on ebay, NOS including headshell for $599.
No idea if that is twice as good as the mf100?
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I think @chakster is a little ignorant when it comes to this issue. He knows more than anyone. Just ask him, he'll tell you. Or don't ask him, he'll still tell you. Buying 60 cartridges demonstrates... something. But spending less than the cost of a cartridge on a turntable upgrade doesn't make sense... |
@uberwalts There is also an Astatic mf300 on ebay, NOS including headshell for $599. No idea if that is twice as good as the mf100? No, it’s not Astatic MF-100 is like Glanz MF-71L, Astatic MF-100 is like Glanz MF-31L. Huge upgrade over all of them is Glanz MFG-610. If you are considering Astatic MF-300 for $599 you can buy much better cartridges for the same price (or even cheaper), for example the Audio-Technica AT-ML150 OCC or Stanton 881s mkII or Pickering XSV-3000 are all under $400 normally (and much better). But for $280 Astatic MF-100 is great. For this price an Ortofon M20FL Super with FineLine stylus is also superb. @rollintubes I think @chakster is a little ignorant when it comes to this issue. I’ve upgraded tone arms (which a TT upgrade would do) and used the same cart. The sound improvement was significant. Putting a shibata tip on an ortophon blue is like driving a boom box with a 300w amp. Jus’ sayin’ Upgrading tonearms is what i’ve been doing for years, but you can’t mount a good tonearm on cheap Music Hall belt drive turntable, also you can’t probably buy a much better turntable with better tonearm for $700 (except some vintage used items) which was the OP’s maximum budget. If you cartridge can not extract maximum from the record groove and your whatever tonearm can’t compeslate it, no matter which tonearm. The signal goes from the record grooves and stylus profile extract music from the grooves. Wider frequency response and accurate reproduction is a primary function of the stylus and cartridge, then it depends on any other componets in the chain. But not vice versa. Upgrading tonearm is great if you already have a great cartridge with nice stylus profile. MM cartridges designed to swap styli, what you’re sayin in noncense. MM cartridge manufacturer designed different styli at different cost to let the buyer choose what he need, if anytime anyone would like to upgrade MM cartridge a first thing to do is to buy a better stylus. I want to remind you again that Music Hall tonearm was matched with 2M cartridge by the manufacturer (the synergy must be OK). If you have a little bit of technical knowledge you can look at comparison chart of the 2M line to understand the generators are all the same! You can continue tube rolling. I think you’re changing tubes in the amp, but not the amp for the tubes. Some NOS tubes cost more than the whole amp! I’ve been there too. @big_greg But spending less than the cost of a cartridge on a turntable upgrade doesn’t make sense... This hobby is all about constant upgrade of everything, it’s all about spending money of everything related to the audio system. We’re doing it step by step. When the OP asked for a cartridge upgrade is not a good idea to tell him he must buy another turntable first. |
When the OP asked for a cartridge upgrade is not a good idea to tell him he must buy another turntable first. In your opinion, which you have yet to demonstrate is based on any actual experience with the turntable the OP has. I would have welcomed that kind of advice before I spent the money I did trying to upgrade that table only to discover later there was a more cost effective and more impactful option. The OP has made a decision and moved on. Perhaps you should consider doing the same. |
I did recommeded a much better turntables if he would consider it with $1200-1500 budget (not with $700 budget), those turntables are brand new Technics direct drive. If you think an upgrade from one belt drive to another belt drive (actually just a different version of the same turntable) was so noticeable for you then you have to try a decent direct drive and if your ears are so sensible to turntable (not to a cartridge or stylus profile) you must be blown away by the Technics. But using a mediocre cartridge on any good turntable is a perversion. |
I recently acquired a JVC QL-Y66F direct drive table with a Stanton 981 HZ cartridge for $545. Much better table than the music hall 2.2. Music hall 5.X tables are often available with a decent cart for around $500. I just sold one for a little less than that. |
That Stanton is a very good cartridge. Enjoy |
@chakster
I was just curious on that Astatic mf300, not going to buy it.
But I did buy the mf100 so hope it lives up to your recommendation!
😬😬😬 |
@tzh21y Yes, I immediately fell in love with the sound of it.The turntable body is a bit resonant, I'm going to try some internal damping to see if that helps. From what I've read, it's impossible to find a replacement stylus for that cartridge, other than some 3rd party options. I will enjoy it while it lasts. |
Big_Greg.
There maybe a few Nos stylus left but you will have to be lucky.
Possible there may be a Jico SAS available for that model.
Either way the price will not be cheap.
I paid probably too much for a Jico SAS for a Shure M91e but it sure does sound sweet.
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That's more than I paid for the turntable and cartridge!
I have a couple of jico sas styli and like them, but from what I've read they don't do Stanton. |
Jico used to make stylus for the 981 but a Pickering XSV3000 should work just as well.
Which are a little easier to find and cheaper! |
Thanks uber. It's good to know there's an option when the time comes. |
these vintage MM cartridges just do many things right. very enjoyable to listen to. |
Agreed on vintage mm. They do a lot of things right for not a lot of money.
Careful shopping can net you 4 or 5 totally different"flavour" vintage mm carts for same cost as one new MC cart.
Of course research is needed to see if they suit your tone arm in way of compliance and if replacement stylus are available at all.
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I am gettting as much satisfaction from older MM designs than I did with my MC cartridges if not more. It seems as though the 1200g stock arm is made for these old cartridges with high compliance. Just amazing. |
For those interested I can perhaps chip in with some recent experience
Last weekend I sat in on an Ortofon demo. 2M red, blue, black, Quintet black, Cadenza bronze & black.
All were mounted in detachable headshells. The system, top end Project TT with Musical Fidelity mid-range solid state and Klipsch speakers, with the exception of the addition of Ortofon's entry step up for the MC's the system remained unchanged.
2M red offered decent engaging sound. Someone earlier in thread mentioned they found using a cheap cart on better table offered better sound than a better cart on a more basic TT. Based on this demo I can understand that comment.
Quiet a change moving on to the blue, far more detailed by comparison, the red while engaging didn't allow the same level tone and insight into the way an instrument was being played. It sounding sweeter with incidental instruments more obvious in the mix. Vocals however were noticeably more sibilant, for me it tipped the balance toward overly so though others didn't feel it was a problem. The black alleviated the sibilant issues while extending the sense of real instruments being played. Soundstage was set between the speakers and there was nice tone and flow to the music, very acceptable sound but for me missing the beauty of what's available in a really good analogue set up.
The Ortofon rep clearly stated that the red/blue stylus were interchangeable as are bronze/black, while it may fit adding a bronze/black stylus to a red/blue body does not get you a bronze/black sound, just something different.
Moving on to MC the really significant change was the way in which the soundstage opened out, there were significantly more ambient queues that defined instruments in space across a wider, deeper stage, while retaining all the tone, body and flow of the MM range. Much more to my taste though I can understand some may favour the different flavour of the 2M black presentation
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@uberwalts
Jico used to make stylus for the 981 but a
Pickering XSV3000 should work just as well. Which are a little easier to find and cheaper! Jico never made SAS stylus for Stanton/Pickering, all they did is cheap generic Elliptical replacement which is a total degradation compared to any Stereohedron profile. It's better to send worn stylus to Expert Stylus in UK for retip with Paratrace profile. Expert Stylus Co LTD. specialized in Stanton/Pickering repair for ages. Our @nandric is their best customer for retipping his huge collection of MC with Paratrace profile from Expert Stylus :) Pickering XSV-3000 has D3000 Stereohedron stylus, but this stylus is equal to the (Stanton 881s) D81s stylus. Stanton 881 with D81s is not as good as the Stanton 981 with D91s! Stanton 981 is much better cartridge than 881 model and i think sealed D91s stylus cost at least $450 minimum. So ebay price is pretty close. Also Pickering XSV-7500 is much better than XSV-3000 P.S. I have factory sealed Pickering D3000 Stereohedron stylus if anyone interested. My latest find is low impedance/low output mega rare Pickering XLZ-4500s, this MM cartridge has an output as low as MC and must be connected to MC phono input. XLZ series is completely different from XSV series. |
