I took a look at the reveiw Sstalwar points us to and can't agree with the white noise, lack of drive, slowness or lack of liviness.
In my set up the sound is life-like when classical live recordings are played and to me that is a testament to a good table. Separation of instruments are one of the table's strong charecteristics among many such as deep bass.
I am not criticizing the reviewers choice in music, but for a reveiw I think it was irresponsible for not seeking out better recordings. |
Wow, it sounds like Mr. Bloom is not a fan of VPI in the least. I got a sense he set off to dislike the table even before he started the review, from the tone of his narrative and numerous remarks that had nothing to do with the actual performance of the turntable. I also found his comment about "few and far between" positive reviews of the Classic rather disingenuous as the opposite seems to be the case. All I can say is wow. |
I sent mine back. It was nice to look at but I found the sound too cold for my ears and I kept hearing a popping sound every time I turned the motor off. Also my high output Grados all hummed on it.
I used the money to get a nice vintage Thorens TD124 and Im very happy so far. |
I've heard the Classic directly compared to a VPI Aries 1 and Aries 3 table with the same cart in the same system and the Classic ranked significantly behind the others.
The Classic was very lively, but rather hot and noisy on the top end and the bass was all there, but a little too heavy with not as much detail or pitch. Both the Aries 1 and 3 had much lower noise floors and more air and detail while still sounding lively and musical at the same time. Associated equipment used was EAR phono pre and amp, and Avantgarde Duo speakers. Not sure if I remember what the cables and interconnects were. All types of music were used in the comparison: rock, jazz, classical, pop.
We felt this was largely due to the Classic's motor assembly in relation to the plinth and the aluminum platter. |
Philb7777...interesting comparison. Did you use same tonearm and cart as well on the 3 tables or no? How about isolation under the tables (same or different)? Just curious if there were any different variables or if you used precisely the dame variables when comparing the tables. Thanks for doing the comparison and posting the results. |
Here was the set up:
Aries 1 with JMW 10.5 tonearm and Dynavector XX2 and Zoethecus stand
Aries 3 with JMW 10.5i tonearm with Dynavector XX2 and Zoethecus stand
VPI Classic with JMW 10.5se tonearm with Dynavector XX2 and Zoethecus stand
The same dyna xx-2 was used in all set ups and was calibrated with a VPI jig in the Aries 1 and a Mint tractor specific for JMW 10.5i and 10.5se in the Aries 3 and Classic. Same downstream system for all three set ups. VTA and VTF determined by same process in all three tables.
We felt we were very accurate in comparing 'apples to apples' about as much as we could. We even tried the paper and rubber mat the aluminum platter comes with in the Classic on and off and liked the Classic without any mat on the platter best. But in our set up and comparison, the Classic fell behind the other two tables by a not insignificant margin. |
Oh yeah, and we used an SDS in all three set ups too. Unanimous that the SDS helped all three tables. |
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I must say that one of the more frustrating things about high-end audio choices is to read completely different opinions on the same product, which tend to leave others quite confused. Especially when meaningful auditioning is not possible. A vinyl specialist from a very respected and popular dealer shop that has been in business for decades had this to say about the Classic:
"We basically recommend the VPI Classic over everything under the $5100.00 Basis 2000/Basis Rega arm...[The Classic] is well-built to even the most casual observer. Heavy and stable, with big, adjustable feet, it is easy to set up and not prone to accidental misadjustment or drift of tonearm or suspension geometries. The JMW 10.5i tonearm can be damped with silicone fluid which allows some tailoring of the tonearm's performance and sound, and it will work well with the Soundsmith Aida's slender physique. The soundstage is large and deep with precise imaging, the bass is solid and the midrange and high frequency response is detailed and smooth. We think it is an all around best buy."
This was in response to my question whether he would recommend the NA Space 294 over the Classic. They carry both brands so I have no reason not to trust this salesperson's opinion, especially since the Space 294 is much more expensive than the Classic. Certainly the majority of professional reviews have been very positive, which leads me to believe that it is not the table as much as the different tastes of those who don't rate it as highly as most.
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The table that I had before the Classic was an Aries 1 with a 10.5 arm and the original, and much desired, original platter.
I never liked that table. I had it with an SDS, permiter ring, and a wonderful Gingko isolation table. It always sounded bright to me, although the SDS definitely helped.
When I got the Classic, I hooked it up the same way as the Aries, and it sounded better right out the box. Much less bright, with great extension and speed. Also, I found no difference with the SDS hooked up, or with it off, so I sold that, and the Gingko platform made no difference either, so I sold that too.
I love the Classic. The only issue that I have had at all, is hum when my Grado The Reference 1 (Statement) is over the platter. VPI has told me that is due to the lack of any shielding with the Grado. They did say, and I agree, that the slight hum is worth it due to the excellent sound they make together, and they suggested keeping the cartridge, and they are working on how to eliminate the hum. |
Please don't misunderstand my post. I think the Classic is a great table, fantastic for the money. Absolutely fantastic. It just didn't sound as refined as the other tables we compared it too. This was also the second generation Classic table after the mods Harry made since version one (changes to tonearm and platter).
I certainly agree, though, that so many things are system and room dependent. We could have the same three tables on a different system or different room with the same system and come up with different results. Everything in high end audio must be taken into context and looked at objectively. |
Macdadtexas, did VPI offer any advice on how to get rid or minimize the hum? Is the hum caused by something in the Classic? I assume it must be since otherwise Grado would certainly have taken measures to fix this problem in their cartridges. I'm curious why a particular table would cause hum in cartridges while a different table wouldn't. Sounds like it might have something to do with the aluminum platter, doesn't it? |
No cure, they said that it happened with the LO Grado Statement cartridges, and said they didn't have a cure right now, but they were working on it. They did say it was the platter.
Really, somehow, it doesn't bother me that much. It's only noticable on very high volumes. But really the cartridge does sound stellar. |
So it's done; I ordered a Classic with my dealer and the worst part of the process has begun--waiting. I got the black finish and the Valhalla wiring.
I must say the pictures do not give this turntable justice. When I walked into my dealer's today, they had just assembled a black Classic with Valhalla and Dyna 20X cartridge for a customer who had been waiting for his since January. (It must have been a sign!)It looked so much better than in pictures. The finish was exquisite and the table was so imposing with its heft and massive platter. Absolutely amazing. I think the black finish especially makes it beautiful.
My only concern at this point is my current MI cart that's 6.8 grams and has a compliance of 22. I intend to upgrade to Lyra Delos in the near future but my Soundsmith Aida will have to do the job for a while. I hope it has a good synergy with the Classic tonearm. |
Actusreus...i plugged in the specs for your Aida cart (6.8g cart mass and 22 cart compliance) with the JMW10.5SE tonearm mass of 12.3g and you get a resonant frequency of 7.76Hz which is right below the 8-12Hz recommended region. As per VPI website the ideal combination for the Classic's 10.5SE tonearm are carts with mass in the 7-11 grams range and compliance in the 11-16 range. The Delos @ 7.3g and compliance of 12 would fit very nicely with the 10.5SE tonearm, yielding a resonant frequency of 10.37Hz. Good luck and let us know how you are making out. |
Thank you Cmalak for your feedback. I actually contacted VPI a while back and Mike told me the effective mass of the JMW-10i SE is 11.2 grams. But then it seems that others were told the mass is anywhere from 11.6 to 12.3 grams so go figure. With an effective mass of 11.2, the resonant frequency I get is 7.9 so it's not completely bad, but doubtless the Delos would be a better match.
I'll keep you guys posted on my impressions and progress. |
Actusreus...I hear you. As you say there has been a range of estimates. Maybe it's because some people have put the traditional 10.5i (with Valhalla wiring and VTA tower) on their Classic (I am assuming this is the 12.3grams) and others have put the 10.5SE (which is the tonearm that comes standard with the Classic without the VTA tower and Valhalla wiring). It's kind of frustrating that VPI does not put the specs on their website for their products. Just as a clarification, so you wired the 10.5SE tonearm with Valhalla wiring but did not get the VTA tower? Is that correct? If so, can you tell us what the upcharge was for the Valhalla wiring? Thx and looking forward to your impressions once you have the table up and running and all is settled in. Congrats. |
That's correct Cmalak. I got the Valhalla wiring but not the VTA tower. The Valhalla option was $300 extra, but my dealer said unequivocally it was absolutely worth it and I trust his judgment. The Classic that was set up at the store also had some sort of a felt mat on the platter, which I found interesting as I know HW normally advises against any mats for VPI tables; I've never felt the need to use my Boston carbon Mat-1 with my Scout, that's for sure. I wonder if that's because of the aluminum platter. I will certainly experiment with the mat and will let you know what I find. |
I think the arm mass on 10.5i is rather confusing since there are 2 versions of the arm. There used to be a lighter version then there is a steel arm wand version which is slightly heavier. I think the heavier arm is now the standard arm but the earlier units, steel arm is an option. So I am not sure if 12.3 g is the heavier arm or 11.6g is the heavier arm? I am waiting for the VTA on the fly kit as my local dealer can retrofit it easily enough. I assume that VTA tower should not really affect the effective weight. |
Good point Suteetat. The difference in effective tonearm mass probably has to do with the steel vs. aluminum arm wands and not whether the VTA Tower is included or not as I said. I guess one has to check with VPI to be sure what they have. |
Just discovered and read this thread. I received my unit in December and originally placed it on a home built 3 1/2 inch thick laminated plywood block. I had no issues with "pops" when I turned the table on and off. My wife however forced me to remove the lovely block and place the Classic on a thin composite mat on top of a the glass (I know, I know) shelf above the preamp and tuner and that is when the loud pop occurred on shut down of the unit. The block has mysteriously disappeared so I haven't been able to duplicate the original set up. Hope this helps Maurager. |
For those with the "popping" problem: why not simply turn the volume all the way down when you turn the Classic off? I do it anyway, just in case, even though I have not experienced any popping with my current set-up. It seems like a prudent thing to do. |
So my Classic finally arrived and oh, my! My dealer set it up and mounted the Lyra Delos. I brought it home yesterday and right out of the box the combo sounds heavenly. Transparency and detail is amazing; I think the soundstage should get better as the cart breaks in. No pooping issues as mentioned in some posts above. Also, the woofer pumping is all but gone, which I experienced with my previous setup. The worst album in my collection is Black Sabbath "Paranoid," which caused a tremendous woofer pumping before, even before the music started. It's still present with the Classic, but much less so. I think it must be the record with a lot of subsonic frequencies embedded in the vinyl during the manufacturing process. Every other record shows no sign of rumble.
My only question so far is about the feet: I noticed that one was visibly raising the table as I was turning it as I could see the thread of the leg screw extending. However, another leg just seems to turn and no screw is visible but still appears to be raising the table. Anyone with a similar experience? |
I picked mine up about a week ago, and I can see the leg screws at all four coners. The table sits perfectly level. I do have the motor pop issue, but its not a big deal. The SDS will eliminate that problem. |
Call Harry at VPI and he'll tell you how to replace a capacitor inside the long metal plate under the table on the side opposite the tonearm. There's no soldering. You just go to radio shack and get the correct one, take that plate off, remove the wrong one, and replace the correct one. No more pop--dead quiet. A $2.00 fix in 10 minutes. The slight hum as you get over the platter with the cartridge seems to have no answer, however. I had a Classic and I did just this with no electrical ability. |
Which cap to replace? What are the original and replacement values?
Thanks. |
Mmai,
Call Harry at VPI and explain you're turn on pop sound you get. It's been about 1/2 year since I did this and I can't remember the exact numbers on the caps. He'll tell you and a quick trip to radio shack will get it done. About 20 minutes to take the plate off, remove the noise inducing cap, and replace with the new one, and put the plate back on. Absolutely no noise on turn on or off--still have that little hum when you move the cartridge over the platter though. I no longer have my Classic or I'd be more help. Bob |
Somewhat underwhelmed with the Classic thus far. Lots more humming with Grado as compared to my VPI 19JR that was dead quiet. I guess I will play around with different interconnect options. |
The Grado is unshielded and will hum in the classic and also in a Rega. Its really a cartridge issue, that's picking up motor hum. If there is a way out of it, Harry will find it. |
I've got a hum and buzz that I can't yet defeat. |
I've been living with a low level hum with my Classic for the past year that I've owned it. It hasn't bothered me too much but I decided that I wanted to get rid of it once and for all, so I just bought a used pair of Cardas Golden Reference interconnects (double-shielded) and that should do the trick. When I get them I'll post the results. Meanwhile I've been using a pair of Gabriel Gold Extreme II. I temporarily stuck a pair of cheap video cables on there to see if that got rid of the hum (like VPI recommends in the owner's manual), and indeed it did. So, at least in my case, the hum is caused by poorly shielded interconnects. |
I have a classic1, and Ive also owned a scout, hw19, Aries 1 and TNT mk IV in the past ,all of them had the pop when you turn off the power. I just got used to hitting the mute button on my pre before I turned it off.
Also when I upgraded the Aries to the 300 rpm motor there was no longer any pop. I know the classic 1 has the 600rpm motor built in. Not sure if that can be changed. The classic 3 comes with the 300rpm motor. I'm buying a classic 3 and selling my classic1 shortly ill let you know if it pops or not. |
I also changed my classic motor to the 300rpm. It eliminated the pop on power off on my deck as well. Speed stability seems better with the 300rpm motor also |
Stringreen, It would seem that a way to avoid hum with the Classic/Grado combo is to shield the motor of the Classic, assuming that the motor is somewhere inside that plinth where it creates an EMI field that is picked up by Grado. The shield should work whether it is around the cartridge motor or the tt motor. |
I am considering a VIP Clasic 1. Any suggestions regarding one of the Sumiko cartridges such as the Blue Byrd or Black Bird instead of a Grado Sonata Reference? Thanks. |
Sorry, I meant the BLUE POINT SPECIAL EVO lll. Thanks. |
