Sarcher30, I quite agree. As far as I'm concerned, it is unconscionable that a product as mature and pricy as a VPI turntable should have a "hum" problem. That problem should have been fully addressed years ago. Just as much as any other fundamental design flaw, it significantly degrades the overall performance, and respectability IMHO, of an otherwise fine product. To perhaps make matters worse, both surprisingly and not the output of the VPI SDS is unbalanced even when it is plugged into balanced power. *Sigh*
The above complaint not withstanding, utilizing balanced AC for the whole studio, including all fluorescent lighting, reduced the overall phono system 60 Hz hum by about 15 dB. It's still there and I can see it and measure it, but it's now at a level that is essentially inaudible.
(BTW, my computer is not on balanced AC. It's unncessary. The computer is both physically remote and electrically isolated from the rest of the system by using Toslink connections which are, of course, non-conductive.) |
Brf - Yes, I'm think replacement of the motor in the new version of the Classic 1 will counter that issue.
Stringreen - How much does that new counterweight cost? |
Harry has designed a new rear counterweight that eliminates the headaches that are expressed on these pages. I have replaced the simple dropped counterweight that first was shipped with my VPI 3D arm, and Harry has since shipped me his new weight. It took me less than 10 minutes to get the arm squared away with greater perfection than I ever could have done with the old weight. I am pretty sure this new counterweight would work with any VPI arm - not just the 3D. Get in touch with VPI. |
The latest versions of the Classic tables now have the motor mounted at the rear of the table and farther away from the cartridge. Perhaps this helps with some motor/cartridge hum interaction. |
It's just physics. The motor is too close to the cartridge. They either need to shield the motor better or move the motor farther away. Sure certain carts will be more immune to the effects but you should not have to worry about this on a product this mature. |
Macster - No, it won't! Lol...
Lp2Cd - Interesting you should bring up the issue of balanced AC power. In fact, that's how I've been running my system for years. I've got a dedicated 32amp spur running from the mains to my room and the balanced transformer is plugged into this, from which my system is powered. So far, so good, no noise ... except from my first VPI Classic which appeared to be feeding motor hum into the cartridge via the LP surface. And I never lift grounds. |
RE" Meanwhile, let's hope this 31-month-old thread will finally stop cropping up!"
HA!
M~ |
I'm a very occasional lurker at Audiogon, and I came upon this thread while looking into maybe upgrading from my VPI Scout Signature TT (with SDS speed control) to perhaps a Classic 3. As my handle suggests, I do studio quality LP to CD transfers and remasters, often for commercial release. The persistent, if very low level these days, 60 Hz hum I've gotten from the TT and cart (a Shure M97xE with a JICO SAS stylus; no better sound for anything like the money) is mostly what has driven my thoughts about an upgrade. (BTW, I can easily and precisely notch out any 60 Hz + harmonics hum with software so it's not in my finished product, but still...) While I haven't read every word of it, I've found this thread useful and edifying, and I thought I might add some different suggestions. As implied, I don't use this TT for general listening. My system setup is such that the signal goes directly from the TT via unbalanced Monoprice ID#2680 RG-6/U 18AWG 75 Ohm Coaxial cable (I auditioned several interconnects up to $200/pair and none were as good, and for $7.50/pair!) to a Musical Fidelity M1ViNL phono stage directly connected with balanced cables to a Mytec Stereo96 ADC and then via Toslink to my DAW (Digital Audio Workstation). Thus I am able to very clearly SEE in real time with spectral analysis, as well as hear, exactly what I am getting and the effect of any change I make. Cables, and their position, ARE important, and it's rather surprising how evident the microphonic effects can be when the cable from the TT is moved even slightly. Cabling is also a significant reason why I've been considering moving to a Classic 3, as that can be had with balanced outputs which have the potential to eliminate essentially all spurious RF and AC pickup. But the other hum-killer that no one seems to have mentioned in this thread is balanced AC power. With balanced AC, instead of a 120v hot and 0v neutral leg as is normal, there is 60v 180º out-of-phase on BOTH AC legs, which will naturally cancel most AC noise. Converting one's system power to balanced AC is easy, but it requires a big, heavy, well-designed and expensive transformer, and prices start around $1500 and rapidly go up. Equi=Tech is hands down the best manufacturer of such equipment, and THEY AIN'T CHEAP at all, but boy is it worth it if AC hum is a problem. Their website is full of good and valuable information. BTW, another often unnoticed source of AC hum are these damned compact fluorescent light bulbs. They'll generate a whole LOT of hash and can cause interference if they are anywhere near your equipment. Running them with balanced AC helps that tremendously as well. A couple of things that no doubt go without saying around here, but I'll say them anyway. First, hum and RF pickup are completely separate and different issues from acoustic feedback problems. I don't have acoustic problems because I play my monitors at a very low level while transcribing an LP. Also, DO NOT LIFT GROUNDS, ever, which people sometimes do to fight hum. Proper grounding is important, including from the TT to the system, but it's especially important if balanced AC is being used. ALL modern electrical equipment is compatible with balanced AC, but if there is a fault, you could get hurt or worse if your grounding is improper. Well, enough for now. Hope this helps. |
Glad to hear. Please let us know how you fare. |
Bifwynne... I've yet to set up and play the new Classic 1. My old Classic 1 had a problem. It's all explained in one of my posts following the original post. It was the TT itself. So I traded in that Classic for an Aries 3, which has been hum-free so far.
But I've still been lusting after a Classic. An opportunity emerged last week to get another one...the new version with the raised plinth... And I'm hoping it will be hum-free... |
Sorry Bassraptor, but not sure I understand your most recent posts. Does the new Classic also present the same hum problem? If so, I really find it hard to understand. I own a tricked-up Classic 1/2 plinth with a Classic 3 tone arm base and S-S wand. I've had two hum/bass ringing problems that were unrelated to the TT.
My first problem related to using a Grado cartridge, which is not news. A different cartridge fixed that problem.
The second problem related to a bass feedback loop relating to an "el-cheapo" IKEA kitchen table my wife gave me to put the TT on. The kitchen table is close to the speakers and transmitted a bass rumble into the TT. The "fix" was to mount the TT on a heavy maple butcher block board, which in turn was placed on two Styrofoam bricks. I have ideas for a better fix, which includes ditching the crummy kitchen table, but that's for later.
Bassraptor, I have no doubt that something is going on with your system. I just don't think it's a defect with the TT.
Hope you can sort it out. |
|
No one would have any problem if you use balanced interconnect |
It happened! I just got myself a new Classic 1 yesterday... again! It's the latest version, of course. I can't really explain what got into me! Yet to unbox it. Waiting for a cartridge. If the same issue crops up, I'm writing to Harry and Mat.... But I really hope not....Because, you know, you only live once...
Yeah, I know, that last part didn't make much sense to me, too... But what the heck! |
The Aries 3 has its motor separated from the plinth, so the Classic's earlier issues won't apply. I'm enjoying my Aries 3 with Classic platter and Dynavector XX2 MkII cartridge. Hoping to get a newer Classic some day.
Hope you're enjoying your system.
Meanwhile, let's hope this 31-month-old thread will finally stop cropping up! |
I received my Aries 3 yesterday and set it up today. The motor hum is G-O-N-E. It took a long time, but it was worth it. Thanks again to Bassraptor, Bifwynne and Macdadtexas for all your help.
M~ |
Bassraptor
RE"I did a whole lock-stock-and-barrel change. The provided arms with each deck don't seem to be drop-in exchangeable units, unless, I suppose, one removes the arm base/mount as well."
I remove the entire arm and mounting assembly, this included the round mounting base and the phono junction box. Also, I had them to transfer the feet from my Classic to my Aries. I'm pretty good at setting up tables, hopefully this will go well. I'm thinking that I can have it set up in about 15 minutes or so, because everything should drop in. But as they say "stuff happens." Well, I'm looking forward to bringing this to a close.
M~ |
Update
My Aries 3 will be shipping at the end of next week. I'm having the feet from my Classic-1 install on it.
M~ |
The Aries 3 in on order through my dealer. :-) I hate to see the Classic go, but the hmmmm is too aggravating. Even though it's really low I can still hear it. Thanks for all the help, but it's time to move on.
Happy holidays, and stay away from unhappy people.
M~ |
Macster: Haha, so it seems, like the hum on my Classic!
I did a whole lock-stock-and-barrel change. The provided arms with each deck don't seem to be drop-in exchangeable units, unless, I suppose, one removes the arm base/mount as well. I ordered the metal platter later. Yes, the Aries 3 has a phono junction box.
There were some issues setting up the arm initially because I wanted to use the Dynavector D17MkIII cartridge, but it was just too light even with headshell weight! Anyway, to cut a long story short, I ended up with four different counterweights from VPI, and eventually still traded up to a heavier cartridge, the XX2 MkII ...
I'm not that much of an expert at setting up, I've got it down to a point where there seems to be no glaring discrepancies in the results... one day, when it's raining hard, I supposed I will get down to further fine tuning it ... |
Bassraptor
You started a thread that just won't die. I just emailed Mike at VPI and told him that I would be exchanging tables next year. I don't want to risk any shipping disorders during this holiday season.
Anyway, I will be keeping my arm and the entire assy. Does the Aries 3 come with the phono junction box? I also intend to keep the feet and the platter. They will be getting my table and the upgraded motor assy. Is this similar to what you did? Also, I will be setting up my table on my own. I have it down to a science.
M~ |
Gvandyke2: You're lucky, then, that the hum was traced to the interconnects. I tried a number of shielded interconnects before tracing the actual cause of the hum in my (former) Classic ... |
Had a similar problem with a VPI Scoutmaster using a Dynavector 20XL along with a Cayin Phono One preamp. Replaced my Monster Cable interconnects with VPI shielded cables. Connected the ground wires to a water pipe. Hum problem disappeared. |
For those of you who are suffering in silence. Get the following: Danco #36 O-Ring pn#96750 $3.00 and Surface guard felt washer kit pn#9425--- $1.96 from Home Depot or where ever.
1. Put the Danco washers under the motor around the mounting screw holes. The motor will rest on the washers.
2. Take the smallest felt pad and place them on top of the motor felt side up, midway between the mounting holes.
3. Tighten (just snug) everything down using a star pattern.
Why this?
Because it helps to isolate the motor.
It's cheaper than buying a 300RPM motor ($140+ shipping.
It works... to a point.
If it doesn't work, the washers and felt pads make nice Xmas gifts.
M~ |
Mine didn't at first, but it does now. Again, if you never ever heard what I'm talking about, you wouldn't know that it's there. For the most part, it's covered up by the music. It's only apparent when you are listening to the table through headphones. However once you've heard it, you can pick it out without fail.
Bassraptor, thanks for the info about the platter/bearing interface. I'll be keeping my platter, whole arm assembly, feet and transferring them to the Aries 3. Let me know If you come up with any additional info.
M~ |
Bifwynne: Mine didn't, too, at first. I think not every unit was plagued by this issue. If yours is working fine, I envy you, I still love the Classic's looks and sound. |
Still no hum on my Classsic rig. The only thing I hear is my wife screamin' to turn the music down. LOL |
Wow, almost 18 months since I started this thread and it's still going on.
I've read the replies since my last post. It appears the motor mounting is the culprit. I'm sure VPI would have rectified this issue on all the Classics since then.
Macster - You'll be glad to know I've stuck with the Aries 3. One change, though, I ordered a Classic all-metal platter for it. This takes the Aries 3's bass to Classic level.
An A-B I did last year before giving up the Classic (and using the same Clearaudio Maestro cartridge) showed the Aries 3 to have more air and detail, and a bigger stage. The Classic had deeper and weightier bass. I switched platters (just a case of drop-in) and then the Aries 3's bottom end clicked nicely into place, the way I like.
Funny thing is, I then ordered a Classic platter from VPI, and when the unit came, it wouldn't fit on the Aries' spindle! Anyway, they did send a whole set - spindle and mount, so I remove the ones on the Aries and fixed the whole platter set.
So far, I'm pretty chuffed with the Aries 3 - I have a Dynavector XX2 MkII on it.
Would be interested to know how far sonically the Classic 3 is from the original model. I spied a new Classic 1 at my dealers, with the new finish plinth, and was tempted to give it another shot... what's it about that bloody Classic, then, ay? Must be all that wood that's calling me!
Just thought you folks might want to know where I've reached in my VPI adventures.
Cheers! |
I am, it will be in exchange for an Aries 3.
M~ |
I have the same vintage Classic TT and have been using a Benz Glider without any hum. Suggest you send your table into VPI and have Mike take a look at it. |
I agree, it should be. I've contacted VPI and also have spent over $1000.00 for various fixes and things. The thing is, that, if you had never heard what I'm hearing with my table, you wouldn't notice it, even now( with all the fixes). The problem comes from having heard it and now I'm locked in on it. I was able to make dead quiet recordings from using my LP12 with any cartridge that I had (Grado's , Shures, etc). This is not possible with the Classic. During my trouble shooting of the Classic, I was able to borrow an outboard motor assembly. With it connected to the Classic, all of my recordings were dead quiet. As a result of that and using a stethoscope on the plinth to check for motor noise I was able to confirm the source of my problem and come to a conclusion. Again, don't get me wrong, with the Soundsmith, and 300RPM motor the table is very quiet but not dead quiet in my listening environment, it's very enjoyable to listen to. However, I want and need to make dead quiet recordings, so I will be moving up to an Aries 3 like the gentleman did earlier in this thread. I've learned a lot on how to mitigate the noise to an acceptable level without spending a lot of money like I did and if someone wants to know they can email me. |
Your Classic should be dead quiet. If not, call VPI and they will tell you what is wrong. Don't listen to hum....not a good thing |
I received my new styled Carmen on Wednesday and installed it. It's a great looking cartridge and sounds wonderful. Now to the point, the hum is still there. If you weren't aware of it before, you probably wouldn't notice until you listen to a recording made from table via a set of headphones. Well that's not good enough for me, so the table will be upgraded to an Aries 3 next year. Don't get me wrong, this thing simply rocks with the Soundsmith Carmen. I have the arm set to level, VTF @1.394gm, and am using the 3gm VPI headshell weight. It has it all, separation, depth, explosiveness and just flat out enjoyable. I'm staying with the Soundsmith line and will move up incrementally. This cartridge is seriously good for the price.
M~ |
NP
I'm working with my dealer on this. I know that we'll get it figured out. It may just my setup, I use my Classic to record cassette tapes. My setup CJ PV5, MF2500A Vandy 3A sigs, Nak CR7A, Dragon, Revox B-215, not the greatest but it allows me to enjoy the music. If you get a chance, record something and listen to the play back.
|
Final thought: if you haven't advised VPI about this yet, please do. If indeed, there is a mechanical hum from the motor, it sounds like the motor needs to be redesigned. The Classic is supposed to be dead quiet, so this is quite unfortunate. But again, maybe my ears or rig just isn't as discriminating as your set up. I'm used to the usual hiss sound from the stylus tracking in the grooves, so maybe I'm just ignoring what you hear. Please let us know what Mike and Harry at VPI say. |
IMHO, the hum is a mechanical hum, and is the result of the motor vibrations being transferred through the plinth. If you take the motor out. You can turn it on and off all day with no hum whatsoever. This was verified by using the tape monitor and listening through a set of headphones and was the reason for going with the 300 RPM motor (less vibration). Keep in mind that Im still getting hum when listening through the phono-stage in my system.
Actually using the source monitor on the tape deck is great for this in that it allows you to amplify whatever is coming through the cartridge. There are things that are going on that are covered up by the music. By using the tape monitor with belt disconnected from the platter, and the arm down on the platter you can heard the noise (mechanical hum) from the motor when it's turned on and off quite clearly. Normally on this table, what happens is that when everything is connected the cartridge acts like a microphone and the mechanical hum is picked up along with the music from the LP. I may not be explaining this quite right, but I never had this problem with my LP12. There was never any hum at all on the tapes made on my Naks or Revox machines. All of the tapes made on those machines are dead quiet. Also, I have a Project table here and no hum. Also, there is a possibility that you guys may still have the hum, but are not noticing it because you arent recording. Still, I'm open. I think that in my case, we may have to go with an outboard motor configuration of some kind or change the table to an Aries which has an outboard motor assembly. But right now I'm not in the mood to be spending a lot of money on this.
Where I'm at now. I have the Classic 300 RPM motor with the new pulley with a set of Audioquest King Cobra cables and a Dyna 10X5. The hum is lower (tolerable) but still aggravating. I talked to Peter of Soundsmith about the shielding on his cartridges and he said that all of his cartridges are six sided shielded and were shielded in the same fashion. So the shielding is the same on a Zephyr as a Carmen. So I ordered a Carmen. I will contact my dealer later in the week to let him know how the 300 RPM motor is working out and to inform him that I still have my problem. Im not as frustrated as I was earlier because there are people who have real problems (food, clothing, shelter) and here I am blessed to be dealing with turntable hum. It got me back on track, Im just going to see this through. However, I dont feel that this is my problem if you get my drift. |
Last suggestion: if you want to go the Sound Smith or DV 20X route, maybe the dealer will lend the carty to you, or at least install it for you in his shop. Then check the TT for hum. Btw, is using a tape deck to check for hum really a valid way to assess the problem? For all you know, the tape deck may have a hum problem.
Look . . . fortunately, the Classic TT is not an old fashioned Swiss watch with gears, cogs and a main-spring. There simply aren't that many parts that can be defective. It's either the motor or the carty -- period. If you still have a hum in your system, it has to be somewhere or something else -- 60 Hz inductance from a power line, I/Cs, or other electronic gear.
As I said, try the Zephyr at your dealer's shop. If there's a little hum, ask yourself if it's OCD? Otherwise, plug the Classic in, turn up the juice and enjoy. Here's another suggestion. Pick up Linda Rondstat's "Living in the USA" record. The first track is the Check Berry standard, "Back in the USA." Turn the volume up -- a lot --listen to the track and look at the album cover pic of Linda wearing her roller skating shorty-shorts. She was in her prime back in the 70s -- one big time adorable cutie-pie. Aaahh, youth is wasted on the young. Sigh. |
The heck with this, I give up. I'm doing what you guys did. The hum still comes through on my tapes. So it's either a Soundsmith or a DV20XH. |
Can anyone here explain why the Classic motor, when you turn it by hand you can feel cogging, just like a stepped attenuator. I have never noticed this before on any other tt motor. |
Get out -- motor vibration. Wow. Now that's a first for VPI. The underlying premise of the Classic is that the machine is built like a tank and weighs like one too. The permitted inference is that the motor on your Classic must have been defective. If so, that would be disappointing because I would expect better QC from VPI.
If my inference is off base please advise because I would very muck like to be wrong. |
Vibration, which is picked by the stylus and transmitted through the phono section. If you remove the motor from its mount the hum (resonance) goes away. My motor vibrated a lot compared to the other motors that we checked. We had gotten it to the point that you couldn't hear the resonance through the phone stage, however when we connected my tape deck and monitored the source it was very audible. It was also very audible on the tapes that I made. I'm thinking that a stethoscope would be very useful in trouble shooting this. A shield cartridge may mask the resonance problem. If nothing else it cost very little to check the motor vibration out before springing for a cartridge. |
What was the problem with the motor? |
96% of the hum is gone. No hum at all just listening to records through the phono section. I still get some (albeit at a very low tolerable level through my headphone jack) Cost $140.00 for a new motor. I'm still in the process of listening to a variety of records and checking things out. |
The motor and I know that it's a "duh." But I will elaborate more after my parts are in. I would "highly" recommend that anyone who has this problem to work with VPI and the dealer to resolve it. Once my table is finished, we'll be certain of the "fix" as I have my Goldring GL2500 in it and it was humming with the motor turned on, with the arm down on the record. When you turn the motor off the hum stopped.
Again, the whole approach on this is to find the problem and fix it. If you think about it installing a shielded cartridge does not solve the problem. If you want you can email me @ blkmacster@nosapam.cox.net, of course remove the nosapam. |
Macster, so what is the source of the problem? |
Found the source of the problem. New parts are on the way and will be installed tomorrow. |
One way or the other, I'm going to resolve this today. I'm taking the table back with my preamp and cassette deck and going through the trouble shooting process with my bud. What I've found is that if I disconnect the belt from the motor (let it wrap it's self around the platter). Then place a record on the table with the arm down touching the record and after that select source monitor on my Nak and plug in a set of head phones to the deck I can clearly hear the motor noise (hum) when I turn the motor on and off. This same hum is what I hear on the tapes that I'm making and now it's really bothering me. So I'm going to take Bifwynne's and Macdadtexas advice and get a Soundsmith Zypher or Dyna 20X2H. |
Another thing peter lederman at soundsmith told me was that the wire coming out of the tonearm of the classic that plugs into the junction box is un-shielded wire. This wire can pickup interference. I took a single strand of copper wire about the size of a human hair, then spiral wrapped it around the tonearm wire. I left a long piece near the base that I connected to the ground lug on the turntable. I then wrapped both wires in PTFE tape. This did eliminate a small hum issue I had. Those of you with the valhalla wiring, I think valhalla is shielded already so this would be no help to you. |
I never a problem until I had the bright idea to detoix my Goldring GL2500. The result was a nightmare and I ended up klutzing the stylus.After that I made some interconnect changes and from there I got on the cartridge merry go round to try to solve the problem. Now I'm going back to square one.
Actusreus
IMHO that hiss is a normal tube by product, but I'd talk to Bruce about it. Thanks for the contact info. |
I've had my Classic I with the Valhalla wiring, and a Lyra Delos for over two years now, and after three or four different interconnects across my system, three different speaker cables, two different phono preamps, a line preamp and power amp upgrade, I have not experienced any hum so many posters here complain of. I run tube line preamp and monoblocks so I do have what I'd describe as "hiss" when I turn the volume up to about a 90 dB level, but it has no effect on the sound; record imperfections are way more obvious than any hiss during quiet passages. So I'm puzzled by this mysterious hum problem and why the turntable would need any fixing or looking at. It's most likely poorly shielded cartridges than might be picking up some interference. I'm not sure how VPI or a VPI dealer can possibly fix the problem.
Btw, Macster, I also bought my Classic and the rest of my system from Stereo Unlimited in San Diego. If you want to get in touch, feel free to email me at actusreus13@hotmail.com. |
