VPI Classic hum

Hi Bassraptor, are you ready to report on how're making out with the Classic/Maestro combo? I'm waiting for VPI to send me a Classic 3 arm, hoping that will calm down my bass resonance problem.

UUUhhmm, I also own a VPI Clasic and I mounted a Clear Audio Maestro Wood, a MM with a 3.6mV output. I think the I/C from the TT to the phono pre may be some off the shelf "higher end" Radio Shack RCA cable. I don't know if its shielded. I don't use a grounding cable from the TT to the phono pre. Also the phono pre is NOT a super high gain job, only 58 db. Bottom line -- no hum whatsoever, but as I mentioned in two other threads, still tweaking the set up to optimize sonics and reduce a slight bass resonance.

Bassraptor, did I miss something in the posts above, but it seemed like you found cartridge nirvahnna with the Rega I/Cs and the CA Concerto? How did you wind up with the Benz and Dynavector cartridges?

Let me challenge point you with a couple of questions. Krell runs his Classic with the Dynavector and reports no problems. His set up is grounded. Is yours?

You mentioned that the Rega I/Cs are shielded. Can I assume that these I/Cs are effective with respect to shielding against low frequency currents in nearby electronic circuits, trannies or the TT motor? Do the Rega I/Cs run near any of the foregoing types of equipment?

Finally, have you sent a private message to Krell asking for more details on his set up, including what he's using by way I/Cs? It seems to me that if you can duplicate whatever Krell is doing, presumably you should get a similar result.

Good luck!

Bassraptor: I installed a CA Maestro Wood on my Classic and am experiencing probelms with low frequency resonance/ringing. I've been trading e mails with Mike at VPI for over a week about this issue. In the most recent exchange of messages, Mike thinks that I might need a different VPI tone arm tube (higher mass and better damped) in order to mitigatde the ringing. I have a couple of follow-up questions for Mike to answer before I try his suggestion.

Please let me know if you're experiencing the same or different campatibility problems. If not, let's compare notes on set up. Perhaps I'm not installing the Maestro properly. Thanks

Bassraptor: I agree with Actusreus' comment about Grados, at least the Sonata. I used to own a Grado Sonata MM (5 mV), which was mounted on a restored vintage Thorens TD 160. No matter what I did, I couldn't get rid of the hum. The sonics were ok, but not as good as the Maestro.

I haven't tried a Grado out on the Classic, but maybe if I can't fix my Maestro bass resonance problem, I'll try one. However, I might "road test" the Ortofon 2 M Black, which is supposed to be one fantasic MM cartridge.

Bassraptor, which Classic model do you have? The Classic 1 and Classic 2 come standard with the JMW 10.5i SE arm, which per the VPI website is "made from aluminum and stainless steel, critically damped in the armtube to keep the arm and wires from vibrating." The VPI website says the Classic 3 "arm [has] a new stainless steel arm-tube, bearing assembly, base mounting, and Nordost Valhalla wiring from cartridge to RCA (or XLR) output jacks."

As I mentioned above, Mike is suggesting that I try an arm tube made of stainless steel. Perhaps it's the same arm tube you have??

In any case, I would appreciate knowing which model Classic you have and whether you have identified any compatibility issues with the Classic/Maestro combo. Thanks for your help.

Bassraptor, very curious, very curious indeed. As mentioned above, I installed a Maestro Wood cartridge on my Classic 1 with stock arm. I may be hyper critical here, but I think I detect a bass resonance or ringing in the 50+ to 100+ Hz registers. I surmise this because I still detect the bass bump when I turn off my sub, which rolls off at 40+ Hz.

As also mentioned, I've been trading e mails with Mike at VPI about the issue. I infer from his messages that he may have been able to replicate the bass bump at the factory. He suggested that I exchange out my stock aluminum/stainless steel arm for an all stainless steel arm. Mike explained that the stainless steel arm has a higher damping factor and effective mass. My questions back to Mike were (i) a request that he confirm whether in fact he was able to replicate the bass bump using the stock arm and (ii) if yes, whether the stainless steel arm corrected the problem. If the answers to the foregoing questions are "No," I may have to rethink what to do next.

Oh BTW, I believe the bass bump relates to the phono stage because I do not detect the bass bump when using my CDP.

Perhaps you can help me with my issue by telling me how you set up your cartridge. In particular, (1) did you use the VPI jig to set alignment and overhang? (2) At what mass did did you set VTF? (3) How did you set VTA/SRA -- with the back end of the cartridge above or below a straight horitontal plane for the cartridge? (4) Did you use a head shell weight? (5) Did you use the VPI mat, rubber damping ring and clamp. (6) Finally, I assume azimuth was true.

Now, as regards your problem, maybe my ears are just plain shot after obsessing endlessly over my perceived bass bump, but I do NOT detect any humming coming off the phono stage -- just a little tube hissing, which is normal. My rig is an ARC PH-7 phono pre, an ARC Ref 3 line stage and an ARC VS-115 amp. I have not as yet hooked up a ground wire from the Classic to the PH-7. The I/C from the PH-7 to the Ref 3 is nothing fancy, just a set of better grade off the shelf Auvio brand RCA jacks I bought at Radio Shack. The I/Cs from the Ref 3 to the VS-115 are balanced Kimber Heros.

It seems to me that we have similar TT set ups. Logic dictates that if we conform our set ups as much as possible, perhaps we can help each other sort through our respective TT issues. I gather you have suffered through I/C problems, grounding and proximity of the I/C cables to inductive current lines. If so, the only thing remaining is that your Maestro may be defective or, perhaps more likely, the stainless steel arm in some way is creating an induced electro-magnetic field because of proximity to the motor. Remember, my stock arm is a combo of aluminum/stainless steel.

Last thoughts, did you mention above whether you think the hum is at 60 Hz? If so, that would be a strong pointer to the motor and stainless steel arm. Have you contacted Mike at VPI, either via e mail or phone?

Sorry for the long post. Just trying to help.

Please write back with your thoughts. Thanks.

Bassraptor, I had a another thought that might help to localize the cause of your hum problem. You said you get the hum when you place the stylus on the record surface, mostly in the first couple of tracks. I'm not trying to be simple here, but do you get the hum with the stylus sitting on the record, but with the motor turned off? I suspect that the answer is no. Then if you start the motor, I assume that the hum starts up. If I'm on target so far, what happens if you touch the ground wire to the tone arm base. Does the hum go away? If not, what is your ground wire connected to. If the pre, any possibility of a ground loop? Just for fun, if you can extend the ground wire touch a water or gas pipe, you might get a clean and solid ground that will eliminate the hum.

I have a vested interest in your results. Mike at VPI just advised me that with the Maestro installed, the "Classic 1 arm . . . resonance was at 16HZ, way to[o] high. It will be at 10 HZ in the Classic 3 arm." As is mentioned above, the Classic 3 arm is all stainless steel. Hence, if I upgrade to the Classic 3 arm, I may resolve my bass resonance problem, but substitute a new hum problem.

Please let me know how you make out. Good luck!

I hear ya! My goodness, I NEVER had anywhere this much grief with my old Thorens. I think the Classic is querky because of the uni-pivot arm. Everytime you mess with VTF, you screw up up azimuth. VTA is just trial and error, but at least we can adjust it with the star wheel. I believe that VTA in the Rega arm is a pain to adjust -- at least in the RB 301 I used to own.

As I wrap up my business with Mike at VPI, I will suggest that the company figure out a better way to adjust the arm without all the grief.

I hope it's all worth the effort when we're done.

Please let us know how you make out. I'll post something once I set up the Classic 3 arm.

Cheers to you.

Bassraptor, thanks for the update. Did you try the suggestions I made on the 23rd, namely:

"Do you get the hum with the stylus sitting on the record, but with the motor turned off? I suspect that the answer is no. Then if you start the motor, I assume that the hum starts up. If I'm on target so far, what happens if you touch the ground wire to the tone arm base. Does the hum go away? If not, what is your ground wire connected to? If the pre, any possibility of a ground loop? Just for fun, if you can extend the ground wire to touch a water or gas pipe, you might get a clean and solid ground that will eliminate the hum."

The suggestions should take all of 10 minutes to try out. If the problem is, as I suspect, related to the motor and its interaction with the stainless steel tube, maybe the grounding ideas will help.

BTW, it's very nice of your dealer to let you try out another Classic TT this weekend. I suggest that you try out a Classic 1 with the stock arm, which as I mentioned above is an aluminum/stainless steel combo. If my suggestions above don't work, try twitching out your stainless steel arm with the Maestro already mounted onto the test TT. If the hum persists, I think that's credible evidence that your motor is ok. Next, I would mount the Maestro on the stock Classic 1 arm that comes with the test TT. If the hum disappears, then I think you have localized the problem to the stainless steel arm. If the hum still persists, maybe your Maestro is defective or the Maestro/Classic is simply not a good combo.

As I mentioned above, Mike from VPI is exchanging my Classic 1 stock arm for a Classic 3 stainless steel arm. In light of what you said on the 26th that you don't hear the bass resonance/ringing that I seem to have, then that's a good indication that the stainless steel arm is better suited for the Maestro. I just hope I don't wind up fixing the bass resonance problem, while adding a hum problem.

Please report back on how you make out. Good luck.

Bassraptor, anything to report about the hum issue?

Mike at VPI said that I should receive my Classic 3 arm towards the ned of next week, already set up to take the Maestro. We'll see.

I agree, this is way too hard. I admire the build quality of the Classic, without qualification -- kinda reminds me of the way things were back in the 50s and 60s when "made in the USA" meant something. Ooops -- showing my age. But . . . I think the uni-pivit arm is too "unusual" for the Maestro.

In an e mail to Mike, I suggested that VPI try to disclose in its marketing data situations/cases where the uni-pivot arm is not a good match with such and such cartridge. There must be some common denominator where the arm is a poor, fair and good fit.

Perhaps VPI, as an alternative design, should provide as an option a more traditional fixed double pivit arm. I'm sure anything VPI comes up with would be top flight quality. In the end, I think whatever VPI comes up with should be, as you say, an easy plug and play situation --like the Rega. For me, I'd willing to "sacrifice" squeezing out the last "n percent" of capacity/sonics from a cartridge/arm combo for plug and play convenience. Just my humble opinion as a consumer and audiophile.

Macdadtexas: Is the Soundsmith Zypher a MM or MC? If MC, do you know what the voltage output is? The gain in my phono pre is 58 db, so I don't want to install a cartridge with an output of too much less than 1 mV. How much does it cost?

Also, Bassraptor and I seem to have different problems with our Classic TT. Bassraptor complains of an annoying hum with his Maestro. By contrast, I do not detect any hum with my Classic/Maestro combo. Rather, I detect an anoooying bass resonance. Very different problems with same cartridge and similar TTs. The only difference is that Bassraptor has a SS arm, where I have the stock arm.

Given that you believe the problem relates to the motor in the plinth, why does Bassraptor have the hum problem but I do not?????

Bassraptor and Macdadtexas: My particular problem may have resolved itself. Here's why.

I turned on my rig, carefully as usual lowered the stylus onto the record -- and no sound. Thought a tube blew in my phon pre, so I opened up the case and checked the tubes. A-OK!! Uh-oh. I figured now I've got phono pre problems. Gettin' ready to ditch vinyl and go back full tilt to my trustee CDP.

Then, behold, Shaazaaam! I noticed that the da*n cantilever on my Maestro disappeared into the 4th dimension. Last night it was there and today it "weren't." I asked my kids if the messed with the TT, but they said they did not.

I installed my old CA Virtuoso and I'm back in business. Phono pre is ok. No hum or resonance that I can detect. I still think the Maestro sounds better than the Viruoso --but then it should. It costs a couple of hundred bucks more.

So, at this point I'm inclined to thro' the towel in with the Clear Audio Maestro. I'll see what I can pick up, maybe one of the cartrideges that VPI sells; maybe a Soundsmith Zypher -- which I think is named after Mr. Federman's dog. I'll report back later.

Bassguy, you're right. This is too da*n hard. Never had this much grief with my old Thorens TD 160 Mk II and $79 Ortofon from back in the 70s. Please report back on how you fare with the Aries.

As Macdadtexas said, it looks like the hum related to the motor since nthe Aries motor is an outboard job. Curious though because I did not have a hum with my Classic/Maestro combo.

In my post from May 28th I said "I installed my old CA Virtuoso and I'm back in business. Phono pre is ok. No hum or resonance that I can detect." Sorry guys and gals -- too quick on the draw "pardners."

After more listening, I get the same exact bass resonance with the Virtuoso as I did with the Maestro. And that makes more sense because the cartridges are very similar.

I am still trading e mails with Mike at VPI about the bass resonance issue. I am 100% confident everything will be resolved to my complete satisfaction this coming week. When everything settles down, I'll report back.

In the meantime, to everyone reading this post, have a safe and restful Memorial Day weekend. Let's not forget what the holiday is all about. G-d bless America and the brave men and women who have taken up arms in her defense.

Hey Bassman, I'm burned out with all these delays. Too much gatification delay. Still waiting to get my Classic 3 arm. BTW, I just sourced a new Ortofon 2M Black and a practically new DV 20X H MkII. Should get both before end of the week. I hear both sound great on the Classic. I'll try both and run with the better one. I'll report back.

Epilogue: Mike, the VPI customer service rep, came through 100% as I surmised. I recently sold my Clear Audio cartridges for scrap/re-tip credit. As mentioned above, the Maestro's cantilever disappeared into the Fifth Dimention (not the pop group from the 70s). The Virtuoso's cantilever is bent and/or out of alignment. I definitely must stop loading the effective mass of my tone arm with a brick.

On a more serious note, Mike did some testing of the Classic 1 arm and Maestro combo. He reported back to me that the resonant frequency was 16 Hz, which is too high. This could possibly be the cause of the bass ringing, but I can't say for sure now because those cartridges are history. Anyone reading this post who is interested in installing a Meastro on a Classic 1 arm arm would be well advised to call or e mail Mike at VPI first to learn what tweaks may be necessary to get the combo to work at its top potential.

In addition, it recently came to my attention that the VTA adjustment set screws at the bottom of the Classic 1 tone arm base were loose. I'm currently using a Dynavector 20X2H cartridge. The DV opened up after I tightened the VTA set screws down. Something to keep in mind with the Classic 1. Don't know if the Classic 2/3 is susceptible to the same issue since VTA is adjusted on the fly.

And btw, I haven't got a clue if the source of the bass ringing I heard on the Maestro and Virtuoso in some way related to the VTA set screw issue. As stated above, check with Mike.

This comment is from another OP that I started:

"Final comments: shortly after posting this thread, I sourced a practically new Dynavector 20X2H for my Classic. This cartridge was easy and forgiving to set up and sounded very good, especially "sans" rubber mat. I liked it very much as an all-around cartidge. But that's not the end of the tale.

"Fortunately I purchased the 2M Black from an incredibly nice guy whi is unbelieveably honorable. Upon learning of my difficulties with the 2M, even with full disclosure that the problem might relate to other issues, he offered to take it back with a full refund. In addition, I sold my Clear Audio cartridges for scrap value.

"Now, enter the Zephyr. As luck would have it, one came on the market about a week ago, and I snapped it up. Just got it yesterday. I am amazed at how good it sounds. If anyone is interested in learning about the reactions of other A'gon members, as well as my impressions, there is a thread running that was started by someone else. Check it out.

"Last comment about the DV 20X2H and the Zephyr. I am using the Zephyr as my primary cartridge with the DV 20X as a back-up. Obviously, I like the Zephyr more, hands down. BUT, the DV 20X is so good, I can't part with it. I may need it one day.

"Best to all and a sincere thanks for all the helpful suggestions."

Vinyl ..lover, both the DV and Zepher are shielded and I haven't noticed hum from either carty. I would circle back to your dealer. He should know what to do. But if you get stuck, try a Dynavector or SS VPI Zephyr.

Good luck.

Vinyl_lover, did Mike's suggestion help? It makes sense.

Vinyl..lover, how did you make out with the TT. VPI finish yet? You must be frustrated as heck.

As I said above, I use the SS VPI Zephyr (MI) and DV 20X2 H (MC). Both are well shielded and both sound well, although I think the Zephyr is better. Macdadtexas and I drive the same front-end and share similar views about the Zephyr's performance. I am very pleased now because I stopped fussing with the carty set up, resonance and hum issues.

I hope Mike can pin-point the issue for you AND resolve it. Let's face it, from the tip of the stylus up to the input of your phono stage. how much is there to "drey" over. Ask Mike what "drey" means.

Wayne.., how well does yhour Ortofon 2M Black mate with the Classic 1's 10.5i SE arm? I tried it several months ago and had problems. Still not sure if my problems related to compatibility, or the carty's output voltage, or even a defective carty.

I found the 2M to be very bright and analytical to the point of listening fatigue. In addition, the output distorted (hissed and crackled) when the sylus tracked record grooves with high-dynamic music. I have since switched over to the DV 20X2H and the SS VPI Zephyr and am quite satisfied.

Vinyl...., great news. VPI is a great company and Mike is a top drawer guy!! BTW, did you ask Mike what the word "drey" means???

Gotta tell ya though, what you described was a wierd defect. Glad you're getting a new table.

Mike should know better. If not Mike, then Harry. It's Yiddish and mean obsessing about something to the point the victim gets a head-ache or very aggravated. The full expression is "don't drey my kupf." Don't give me a headache.

Wayne..., sorry I'm a little confused. In setting up VTA for the 2M, does this 2 degree adjustment mean the back side of the carty should be raised a little via the VTA mechanism. If VTA is raised that way, then the back end of the carty will ride just a little higher than the front end. So, if one could actually measure the position of the tone arm, it would not be horizontal. Instead, the tone arm would ride at a slight angle -- 2 degrees as measured from the stylus tip.

Does my question make sense?

Macster, I own a VPI Classic 1 (w/Classic 3 wand upgrade). My "primary" carty is a Sound Smith Zephyr. No hum and not even using a ground wire from the TT to the phono pre. My back-up is a Dynavector 20X2 (H). No hum with that carty either.

I've also used a Clearaudio Maestro and Ortofon 2M Black. Those carties didn't work out for me because of compatibility issues, which may have been my fault. But no hum with either of these carties.

Check Macdadtexas comments above. I tend to agree with him. I think it's the motor and the fix is using a well shielded carty like a Sound Smith or DV. I don't know if Clearaudio or Ortofon carties are well shielded, but as stated, no hum problem for me.

I have read elsewhere that Grados are susceptible to hum, but VPI mounts them as options. Maybe the VPI Grados are special order??? Dunno.

Macster, in light of your problems, I think letting your dealer install a new cartridge is a good idea. But before taking it out of his premises, I would ask him to plug it into a system to check it out for hum. Also, I would bring your VPI alignment jig and a digital weight meter to check for yourself that the carty is set up correctly. It should take all of 5 minutes to check alignment and weight. If there's a problem, I would insist the dealer resolve it on the spot. I offer these suggestions because the da*n tables weighs a ton. Why schlepp it around if you can avoid it??

Macster, so what is the source of the problem?

Get out -- motor vibration. Wow. Now that's a first for VPI. The underlying premise of the Classic is that the machine is built like a tank and weighs like one too. The permitted inference is that the motor on your Classic must have been defective. If so, that would be disappointing because I would expect better QC from VPI.

If my inference is off base please advise because I would very muck like to be wrong.

Last suggestion: if you want to go the Sound Smith or DV 20X route, maybe the dealer will lend the carty to you, or at least install it for you in his shop. Then check the TT for hum. Btw, is using a tape deck to check for hum really a valid way to assess the problem? For all you know, the tape deck may have a hum problem.

Look . . . fortunately, the Classic TT is not an old fashioned Swiss watch with gears, cogs and a main-spring. There simply aren't that many parts that can be defective. It's either the motor or the carty -- period. If you still have a hum in your system, it has to be somewhere or something else -- 60 Hz inductance from a power line, I/Cs, or other electronic gear.

As I said, try the Zephyr at your dealer's shop. If there's a little hum, ask yourself if it's OCD? Otherwise, plug the Classic in, turn up the juice and enjoy. Here's another suggestion. Pick up Linda Rondstat's "Living in the USA" record. The first track is the Check Berry standard, "Back in the USA." Turn the volume up -- a lot --listen to the track and look at the album cover pic of Linda wearing her roller skating shorty-shorts. She was in her prime back in the 70s -- one big time adorable cutie-pie. Aaahh, youth is wasted on the young. Sigh.

Final thought: if you haven't advised VPI about this yet, please do. If indeed, there is a mechanical hum from the motor, it sounds like the motor needs to be redesigned. The Classic is supposed to be dead quiet, so this is quite unfortunate. But again, maybe my ears or rig just isn't as discriminating as your set up. I'm used to the usual hiss sound from the stylus tracking in the grooves, so maybe I'm just ignoring what you hear. Please let us know what Mike and Harry at VPI say.

Still no hum on my Classsic rig. The only thing I hear is my wife screamin' to turn the music down. LOL

Sorry Bassraptor, but not sure I understand your most recent posts. Does the new Classic also present the same hum problem? If so, I really find it hard to understand. I own a tricked-up Classic 1/2 plinth with a Classic 3 tone arm base and S-S wand. I've had two hum/bass ringing problems that were unrelated to the TT.

My first problem related to using a Grado cartridge, which is not news. A different cartridge fixed that problem.

The second problem related to a bass feedback loop relating to an "el-cheapo" IKEA kitchen table my wife gave me to put the TT on. The kitchen table is close to the speakers and transmitted a bass rumble into the TT. The "fix" was to mount the TT on a heavy maple butcher block board, which in turn was placed on two Styrofoam bricks. I have ideas for a better fix, which includes ditching the crummy kitchen table, but that's for later.

Bassraptor, I have no doubt that something is going on with your system. I just don't think it's a defect with the TT.

Hope you can sort it out.

Glad to hear. Please let us know how you fare.