VPI 2nd Pivot for 3D


I just installed mine and discovering my old records anew.  I thought I knew everything there was to know on the original pressing of Fleetwood Mac's Rumers......but no - there's more.  You immediately hear a more solid bass, but then the dynamics hit hard.  It sounds like my amp is on steroids.  More cleanliness, - everything is better.  Very highly recommended.
128x128stringreen
Dear @moonglum : Thank’s, you are rigth and yes: who’s counting but me. Good.

Ignorance is the " war’s mother " and that’s why I always try to improve my ignorant levels.

@moonglum in confirmation to your posts and mine here high-ligths from specific experts studies on the subject and its importance:

"""

The stylus tip, when in good condition, touches the groove walls at only two points. The entire weight of the stylus and the structure which holds it is concentrated at these two microscopically small points. When this concentration of pressure upon the points of contact is calculated, we find it to be approximately 26 tons per square inch. The walls of the record grooves are, of course, subject to the same pressure, but only for the fraction of a second required for a particular section to move past the tip as the record rotates. The stylus tip must travel well over one-half mile of surface each time a 12" LP record is played...with 26 tons of pressure per square inch. """



""" The most interesting photos to me described the "infinite" amount of force applied to the groove by the spherical and elliptical stylus designs. These designs effectively rest on 2 round contact points about 80%-90% of the way down into the groove. Since the contact points are rounded, the contact area is infinitely small, so no matter what the tracking force, the tracking pressure at the point of contact is effectively infinite. """



""" Getting back to the ripples caused by spherical and elliptical styli near the bottom of grooves, there seem to be 2 forces at work. The stylus tip gets warm on the two contact surfaces after only a few seconds playing. At that point you have a hot stylus pressing infinitely hard against vinyl and this can easily create substantial softening (melting is not required, in fact melting is not the mechanism that creates the ripples). After the stylus has passed any groove location the after-effect of the stylus bouncing merrily along in the groove causes the rippling. ..... But there are so many stretching, bouncing, musical, pushing/pulling pressure waves being generated, some driven into the disc and some being generated as the stylus tries to drag the vinyl along with it, that as the soft vinyl hardens again, it reacts in a resonant fashion. ""!"



""" From page 975 : "because of the small area of contact that exists between the stylus tip and the groove, the pressure against the groove wall can rise up to many thousands of pounds per square inch. For instance, if the wall receives 0.7 g of force applied through the contact area equal to 2 ten millionths of an inch, the pressure is 7726 lb/squ.inch. It has been experimentally shown that with such high pressures and forces of friction between stylus and the vinyl, that the outer skin layer of the record material melts as the tip slides over the plastic and then refreezes almost as fast as it melted. It has been suggested that since the melting temperature of vinyl is about 480 °F that the same temperature exists in the contact area. If the record material is metal, which happens when metal mothers are played, then the pressure increases to 20,000 to 30,000 lb/squ.inch, and the temperature can reach 2000°F because there is no plastic deformation of the groove wall. This explains why styli made of diamond, which is nothing more than carbon, literally burn up or wear out in a couple of hours when they are used to play metal mothers. """


In my past post I don’t speak of other parameters that can increment/modulate those very high forces that per sé increment the unstability problem in the unipivots during playback.


The recorded grooves were recorded at different recording velocities according the music information needs this has a direct effect on those forces that push the tonearm bearing, stylus tip shape has its own effect as the stylus tip wear through the time that between other things increment the friction between stylus tip and recorded grooves in encrement on those forces, skating has an effect too as the VTF and SRA that it’s changing almost at each groove due to LP imperfections. Of course that self cartridge tracking abilities contributes too.


All those very high forces affects any kind of tonearm bearing designs but on unipivots is the worst case.


@stringreen , I posted:


""" As always I’m not talking here if we like what we are hearing through unipivots or dislike, this is not the issue but to stay nearer to the recording that means we need to stay with distortions ( of every kind. ) at minimum and unipivots can’t help to achieve that main target. """


That’s what I’m talking about. As unipivots does not exist any single tonearm design with out trade-offs and each one of us choose which trade-offs are better choosed to be nearest to each one targets. Unipivots are out of question to achieve my today targets.


It’s nothing wrong with you because your system today fulfill your targets. Fine, that's what each one are looking for.

Btw, thank’s for your invitattion and you are welcome to come at my place in México city anytime.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.


Btw, as always the post of that person came only to " hit me " ( obviously with no success. ) with no single fact because has no facts. Pity.

To be entirely fair the pressure on a main bearing can be up to 50 tons/sq inch and stylus forces commensurately large but who's counting ;)
Post removed 
The cartridge stylus tip is below a " tremendous " task where are generated hard and huge forces when ridding the LP recorded grooves...
Those movements/vibrations are not a tiny ones but huge ones to generates unstabilities at the tonearm bearing where a unipivot can’t handle with aplomb...I’m not talking here if we like what we are hearing through unipivots or dislike, this is not the issue but to stay nearer to the recording that means we need to stay with distortions ( of every kind. ) at minimum and unipivots can’t help to achieve that main target...Can I be wrong?, just tell me.

Yes Raul you are very very wrong and again your flair for the dramatic and extreme are used to support your pronouncements of "fact" and wisdom. In fact the forces involved in LP playback are not "huge" ones at all but teeny tiny forces that are typically in the approximate range of fractions of a gram and it is for that reason that the entire rest of your summation here is as usual for you completely mistaken although you state it with such conviction and presumed authority that it may appear to be reasonable to he casual and uncritical reader and of course if Raul is consistent with his recent behaviors he will now respond by attacking the messenger with taunts and vindictive but frankly this matters not one tiny whit to me. 

Raul....very few people on these sites are wrong or right.....Does one prefer Mozart to Beethoven?  All designs have something that can be pointed to with ridicule.  I've had many arms - (lets see if I remember some of them)...Grado Labs, ESL, SME V, Ortofon, Helius, Rega ..and so it goes.  They've all resided in systems that have changed as has the sound (my ears as well)....however, I have never been as satisfied with a tonearm as I have been with VPI. Should you want to hear mine, if you are ever in Arizona, let me know we can have a listen and some wine.
Dear @stringreen : """ the stability problem is eliminated. """

well, that’s what we think but: is it true?

The cartridge stylus tip is below a " tremendous " task where are generated hard and huge forces when ridding the LP recorded grooves.
Those forces come generated with almost at random directions/vectors that are transmited by the cantilever to the cartridge suspension to the cartridge motor and to the cartridge body and from here to the headshell/arm wand and tonearm bearing.

Those movements/vibrations are not a tiny ones but huge ones to generates unstabilities at the tonearm bearing where a unipivot can’t handle with aplomb and where that kind of unstabilities genrates colorations/distortions to the audio signal. This happens in a way down way with fixed bearing tonearm designs.

Take a look to these links on what the at each single groove where stylus cartridge tip has to " figth " and where each single groove is and has different path.
Additional to all those all the LPs comes with micro and macroscopics warps and all LPs are not dead centered mading the whole unstability subject more critical:

http://www.synthgear.com/2014/audio-gear/record-grooves-electron-microscope


https://www.google.com.mx/search?q=lp+grooves&tbm=isch&imgil=ktDEnuPAQUb1yM%253A%253BeuEapQR8NyxSFM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.openculture.com%25252F2015%25252F06%25252Fa-stop-motion-of-a-needle-riding-through-lp-record-grooves.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=ktDEnuPAQUb1yM%253A%252CeuEapQR8NyxSFM%252C_&usg=__Z4r0L19_k_EmY-GbwrRGAmPGugA%3D&biw=1366&bih=676&ved=0ahUKEwiZyteszZ3VAhXBJCYKHUFNCRoQyjcIMQ&ei=z6RzWdmmOcHJmAHBmqXQAQ#imgrc=ktDEnuPAQUb1yM:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuCdsyCWmt8


As always I’m not talking here if we like what we are hearing through unipivots or dislike, this is not the issue but to stay nearer to the recording that means we need to stay with distortions ( of every kind. ) at minimum and unipivots can’t help to achieve that main target.


I owned and own unipivots but as I posted I just do not likes because all those.


Can I be wrong?, just tell me. As I said, cartridge needs must be fulfilled by the tonearm design characteristics where bearing and damping make a paramount differences on the quality level of system overall performance. For me unipivots are out of the " equation ".


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.



On a note of clarification when I mentioned the effect might be worse for line contact I was of course referring to the listening experience not the "wobble" effect ;) :)

If it is wobbling then spherical or elliptical might notice it less ;)
I didn't care much about the wobbly unipivot. For me the improvement of the 2nd pivot is mostly sonic - in imaging and dynamics - and also the fact that you can easily adjust the azimuth without altering the VTF.  
Until I found this thread I wasn't even aware of this mod.  Just ordered mine and will report back on my experiences with it.  I haven't really had too much trouble with the unipivot, but the comments I've found suggest that the other pivot is a bit of an improvement.  
Dear Stringreen,
I think what Raul may be referring to is the eccentricity as the uni transcends a warp. If you videoed it then played it back in slow motion you'd see the cart wobble from side to side. My guess is that the effect might be worse with line contact and low compliance but the fact is that folk have been using regular unis for years and are unconcerned by rumours of eccentric behaviour. It goes without saying that in the general sense increased noise (for example) during the warp is often expected.
 Gimballed arm users needn't feel too smug because warps seldom remain in the same lateral plane as the cartridge but there is no active compensation other than via the cart's suspension or the cantilever. ;)

If there is a contest between the SL1200G & the Prime, this modification ups the stakes.
Happy listening!
truth be told, I never had any problem with either the 3D with or without the 2nd pivot or the metal VPI 10.5 arm with tracking any record I have.  I found the 3D a major improvement to the metal, and the 2nd pivot to be an even bigger improvement.  Some have voiced the opinion, that the single pivot arms "feel funny", but once lowered onto a record, the stability problem is eliminated. 
Raul,
lndeed the VPI may now be as stable over warps as the Phantom.

It must be said that many people out there are still enjoying great satisfaction with "true" unipivots despite their minor foibles and idiosyncrasies :)

Enjoy the music!
Thanks raul.....the 2nd pivot is certainly an improvement....probably as you say.
Dear @stringreen: True unipivots are a " mess/nigthmare "  for pick-up recorded information from the LP grooves due to its real unstability at micro groove levels. Yes, I don't like it. The cartridge stylus needs must be fulfilled by the tonearm and " stability " for is perhaps the first and main target for any cartridge when it rides.

At our sigth we can't see that unstability, we think is steady at the grooves but it's not.

So, if your  VPI is no more an unipivot then what you have is a serious improvement in your listening experiences. Good.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
That's cool, have been looking at that and was looking for some feedback. Seems a fairly easy process.