Degustibus non disputandum |
The best speakers for 10K that I heard : Martin Logan Prodigy, Audio Physic Avanti III, B&W 802N. If you are in Europe I would add to the list Audio Physic Calderas II they are only here $ 9500. Enjoy it |
Audiokinesis/914nut:
The reason I recommended those two speaker systems: Sound Lab and Magnepan is because they are nonboxy speakers. I own
Acoustat 2+2s with both ARC and Spectral equipment. So
any pure Electrostatic has to be excellent(faulty logic
I know). The Sound Labs got excellent reviews which I expected. In 1985 when I purchased all my equipment, the
choice narrrowed down to Maggie IIIas or the Acoustat 2+2s.
I chose the Acoustats(the golden ear of the family my wife
preferred the Maggies). I have never looked back since...
well....almost. Since I got on Audiogon this past year,
this forum picqued my interest in new stuff. I auditioned
three speaker systems last weekend. The Avalon Eidolons in an all Spectral setup(2C3D), Martin Logan Prodigy speakers, and Magnepan 3.6s. The winner was clear in about 10 seconds
The Maggies. More transparent, more coherent, more natural
timbre,more dynamic. The Martin Logans took ten seconds
to find out they lacked everything the Maggies had. The
Ediolons had the best soundstage/imaging but lacked the
natural timbre and transparency. On dynamic passages you
knew the music was coming from a box. The Maggies defintely
need power to sound great, the more the better(I would guess 400 watts 4ohms minimum). I will make the assumption that the Sound Labs will sound excellent because it will have many of the characteristics of the Maggies/Accoustats but maybe even better. However, were the three I tested better than the Acoustats, the Maggies for sure, but lots better?? No. The Martin Logans were a very definite NO. The Avalons
were good speakers for a box, but the whole setup was over
70K dollars. So to get reasonable sound from a box you have to spend alot more money than I care. The upshot of this
all: I love electrostats and will keep the pair I have until
they fall apart,ditto the electronics(I didn'hear anything
appreciably better in that regard either).Audiokinesis:
I was only kidding about discounts.
One question: Whatever happened to Jim Strickland the
founder of Acoustat???? |
Although the topic seems to have varied a bit from the question, I will put in my vote for the best speaker in the $10K range... The winner for me is Vienna Acoustics Mahler, hands down the nicest sounding speaker I have heard in it's class.
Niels. |
914nut - here are a few things you may or may not have tried that should improve the imaging of your Sound Labs:
Try them on cones. I use Walker Valid Points, stuck in their little lead hockey pucks. I have a customer who uses Blue Diamond Racing cones (the "detail" ones) on a hard tile floor with good results. When you are standing the speakers back up, having screwed on the cones, take care not to put all the weight on a single cone. Rotate the speakers to one side a bit as you stand them up so the weight is distributed.
Address the first sidewall and "frontwall" reflections. I use fake ficus trees at the first reflection points to either side of the speakers, as well as behind (and a bit to the inside of) the speakers. If your room is bright and underdamped, consider a date with Sallie.
Put a pointy piece of tape on the floor exactly in front of your listening position (pointy so you can get an exact measurement), and using a tape measure make sure you have both speakers exactly the same distance from the point. You may end up making small, 1/16th inch adjustments by ear. Roger Waters' "Amused to Death" is useful for getting this part right.
Make sure you have both speakers toed in the exact same amount. I suggest using a flashlight held to your forehead, and adjust the panels until you see exactly the same reflection in each.
If you have done everything very meticulously and the center vocalist is still a bit off-center, try gingerly using the bias controls as level controls to dial that vocalist in to dead center.
I find speaker cabling to make a significant difference in the soundstaging as well. You want a very coherent cable, one that minimizes time smear. Since the Sound Labs are inherently very coherent, timing anomalies that go unnoticed on other speakers ought to be addressed. The wide, flat Magnan Signature cables are my personal favorite. Note that David Magnan's reference system is a pair of stacked Original Quads - conceptually rather similar to the Sound Labs.
You might want to get several bags of lead shot and put them on top of the speakers. I put each bag inside two thick, dark socks, (the opening of the inner sock oriented opposite to opening of outer sock). I use number six shot. You might also want to experiment with solid lead blocks on top of the speakers. I think this would work even better.
Someone above was wondering if the Sound Lab dealer in New Orleans offers a discount. My reply:
"MUUAAAH HA HA HA HA!"
Sorry, I've been wanting to do that for a long time.
My gimmick is, if you travel to New Orleans for an audition, you stay free in a bed & breakfast I manage, and I'll reimburse up to $500 of your airfare with purchase. I offer a modest discount in addition to the airfare thing, but I'm not trying to be the internet discount king. I'm trying to be a real dealer regardless of where my customers live - my shipping crates are available to my customers, for example, and if you have a problem I'll do my best to get it resolved quickly and to your complete satisfaction. Blah, blah. |
Schubertmaniac--- couldn't agree more with you about Maggies/SLs/boxes. I've owned Maggies since mid-'70s----most recently 3.5Rs (which I still have. HP likes 3.5Rs/3.6Rs when combined with a subwoofer, but if you start adding up what it costs to bi-amp, with the extra amps, interconnects, speaker cables, subwoofer, etc., as the monkey said when he peed in the cash register: "This is gonna run into money!" And fast!)----but the SL A-3s (same as M-2s, functionally) I bought about a month ago are in a totally different class. Transparency/natural timbre are strong points, AND they've got as much accurate bass as I could ever hope for. (Caveat--I listen to classical music almost exclusively----YMMV.) I've gotta say, however, that the Maggies perhaps do image a bit better, although I'm still experimenting with speaker placement.(Unfortunately, at least IMHO, there are more compromises in speakers than in any other component, except perhaps phono cartridges, the other end of the chain. Maybe in the future there will be one speaker that does it all, but that doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.) Can't speak for the Maggie 20s----I've never heard them----but I'm extremely happy with SLs. I've heard there is a long waiting list for any of the Maggies (about the same for SLs, also!).
As for box speakers, there are without doubt some excellent ones---- I'll be the last to criticize anyone's choice---- but to be perfectly honest, the only ones I've "listened to" in some 25 years were a pair of Revels in a salon when auditioning a Sony 9000ES recently. The only demo classical SACD they had was of Glenn Gould, so I couldn't tell much about image/soundstage, etc. I guess Maggies and SLs have simply convinced me I'm a planar nut.
BTW----in my limited experience, some SL dealers will knock a bit off the retail price----seems to be discretionary. Also, beware of some of the used SLs on various classifieds. From what I've heard/read, Dr. West, the SL designer, is constantly "tweaking", so what seems to be a bargain may be otherwise, depending on year of manufacture, fixes/upgrades that have been done, etc. There have been many improvements over the years. Get serial numbers, contact the factory, and they can tell you about the history as they know it.
Jim |
So....Bob,
Are you trying to say you like these beasts? :>)
Great. Just what I need - another Holy Grail to pursue! |
Hi Telescope, so you took the plunge. Sounds like you made the right decision. Congratulations! |
Apres avoir relu votre reponse, je comprends que vous etes heureux de la base, je crois, sans subwoofer. Regardant mes notes de la demonstration, je n'ai pas ecrit quels equippements etaient utilises pour les demontrer et maintenant, apres longtemps, je ne m'en souvenais pas. La difference entre ma perception et votre experience prouve que les demonstrations au magasin sont beaucoup plus inutiles que les demonstrations chez nous. Il est probable que vous ayez raison et je me sois trompe de la capabilite base profonde des Parsifals a cause d'une mauvaise demonstration. |
Subaruguru, Merci de votre reponse. Je dois ajouter que je n'ai pas entendu Les Parsifals Encores, mais juste Les Parsifals et je ne sais pas quels developpements ils ont fait pour ameliorer le Parsifal. Il faut admettre que les hauts-parleurs aient ete demontre avec les "woofers" emettant le son vers le mur plutot qu'en face de nous, mais apres m'avoir entendu plaindre depuis quelques minutes de la base profonde absente , le vendeur a tourne la boite woofer vers nous. Bien sur, c'etait une enceinte avec un son "tiede", donc, on attendrait qu'il ait porte assez de frequences bases. Mais, ce n'etait que les frequences bases plus profondes qui etaient manquantes. J'ai trouve cette bande de frequences beaucoup trop "tight" ou "supprime". Par exemple, les parsifals n'ont demontre aucune tendance a ebranler la salle sur la deuxieme bande du CD "Surfacing" par Sara McLaughlan. D'autres CD's portant la base profonde nous ont montre la meme chose. Peut-etre que les enceintes se trouvaient trop loin du mur pour produire les fortes bases frequences. Mais, est-ce que vous pensez de pouvoir les utiliser sans un "subwoofer" est d'etre heureux avec la reproduction des frequences bases profondes? Merci. |
Rayhall...j'ai oublie: il faut utiliser les "woofers" "front-firing" si le dimension de mur est plus d'une metre.
Si non, les woofers annulent la base de la midrange. Donc un
grand trou entre 60-100Hz. J'utilize les Encores 2 metres devant le mur. Ils faitent BEAUCOUP de base (un petit TROP fort 70Hz) dams mon systeme. |
Rayhall...Les Encores manquent la base?? Dans ma maison ils
sont tres fort jusqu'a 30 Hz. (-6dB @25Hz). Et une "midrange" sans pareil sauf les hauts parleurs "electrostatic". J'ai peur que vous avez eu une demo avec des autres fautes! Ecoutez encore dans un autre venue, si possible. ATTENTION: le nouveau "woofer" d'Encore est beaucoup plus fort que l'ancienne modele. Bien sur, il est cher, mais il chant avec toute honnetete, et un coherence extraordinaire!
Essayez-vous encore. Je suis sur que vous voudriez changer votre opinion. A bientot. |
Hi John (above)...Adrenaline 75's
Well you have heard these wonderful speakers because you have pretty much nailed it!
I am still going through all the tweaking but have found these pretty easy to place, unlike a lot of speakers.
Not real sure I need Tom to come down and mess with my
placement :o) :o). Sounds great off axis as well.
These things totally disappear, and have a vibrant, powerful
sound with the best bass you will ever hear. Almost feels
like you turn solid during brief deep bass impacts. KILLER!
And bass alway's remains tight & deep even at lower
volumes.
Smooth highs and very accurate midrange. (AIRY CITY)
Soundstage has you looking left & right & in between as
if you can alllllmost see the performers. I know this
speaker system can only get better with upgraded components.
Will give more reports later when I have lived with them for awhile, but anyone looking for speakers in the 10k
range should at least hear these 27k new speakers, because
they are a steal for 10-17k used. IMO
I am known for never being happy (Very picky) but feel that
I have won the speaker lottery for sure :o)...BTW, did I
mention how beautiful these are??
Sorry if I went overboard.
Bob |
10K a great price point spending more not always helps the sound.....
My favorites JM LAb Mezzo,B&W 801N,802N,Audio Physics Avanti III,Martin Logan Prodigy.
Sure you can spend more and improve what?....at most 5% and additonal 5k,10K or 15K of expense. The speakers above are truly on the edge of technology today. I for one don't see a point of spending more $. Yeah they are that good, don't take my word for it. GO OUT AND LISTEN :-) |
Only two choices:
Maggie 3.6s(maybe the MG20.1s if you can get a discount)
Sound Lab M2s(maybe SL M1s if the guy from New Orleans will
discount)
A box is a box is a box......You can dress them up.... |
Subaruguru,
A mon avis, les Parsifals de Verity Audio manquent la base profonde et, alors qu'ils affichent une presentation generale qui n'est pas tout a fait epouvantable, ces enceintes ne justifient pas la coute qu'il faut payer. Il y a beaucoup d'enceintes qui donnent du son aussi ou plus "lisse" , mais qui coutent moins cher. Et a ce prix, il faut que l'enceinte atteigne les frequences bases assez fortes que la reste de la gamme sonique et qu'elle demontre quelque chose d'exceptionel aux hautes frequences et aux frequences moyennes. D'apres moi, bien que les Parsifals ne sont pas de mauvaise enceintes, ils n'achevent pas un niveau d'etre considere comme une des meilleures de cette categorie. Peut-etre que j'ai recu une mauvaise demonstration, mais c'etait mon opinion. |
Telescope_trade:
I've heard the adrenalines at a friend's house hooked up to a spectral and rowland setup. Quad Rowland amps ! I thought they sounded like a very large, detailed, and refined multi-coned dynamic speaker. Probably the most remarkable characteristic is their ability to produce large detailed yet weighty soundfields without being overpowering or sounding like a huge speaker. Sonically, they reminded me of a giant audio physic tempo but with greater bass and a larger soundstage. The sheer size of the drivers allows the speakers to portray spacially complex soundfields similar to a magnepan. They don't quite have the coherence of a magnepan 1.6, nor the timbral purity and weight of a vandersteen 5, nor the low level detail and speed of an audio physic virgo. They do manage to do all these things quite well though. Very fast, powerful bass. A real-live reference speaker. Overall, maybe the best speaker I've heard. Very very strong in all areas. Huge things. You must have a dedicated room.....
Tell us what you think ! |
What about Wisdom Audio Adrenaline 75 dipoles?? I have not
heard them but bought a pair on reputation alone. I know
that's risky but oh well.(Picking them up tomorrow)
Just curious as to whether anyone has heard them.
25k new, but can be bought for 10-17k used |
Shameless dealer plug here - the Sound Lab Millennium-2's offer a unique combination of qualities at this price ballpark. The Sound Labs excel at timbre and nuance, trading off efficiency. These are true full-range electrostats (in contrast to those that really need a sub for the bottom octave). I have yet to hear their equal at what they do well. Another ten-grand ballpark speaker I like very much is the Gradient active Revolution system. Not a Gradient dealer (yet!). |
Je propose les Parsifals Encores de Verity Audio a Quebec.
Simplement merveilleux et extraordinaire! Profond, naturelle, un peu relaxe...mais toujours exigent et plein de musicalite! Salut! Ernest |
alon circe are one of the best I have listened to and plan on buying a pair . I own alon mk. 5's and there mini monitors the petite if you want hifi look elsewhere if you like music look at the alon but you must use tubes with them. i also owned the alon mk2 a few years ago but sold then to a neighbor so I still get a chance to here them quite often . I think alon cable works well with them but if you can find apex speaker cable [no longer made] this is also very fine |
My vote goes to Nestorovic. Best I've heard at any price |
vonschweikert vr5 with vr7 woofers. read dennis hartwick's review this month at planethifi.com. he says..and i agree. that "given what i know is out there,they are the best". there is even a se version with special holvand caps. |
Martin Logan CLS IIZ's with 2 Vandersteen 2wq subs!!!! |
Can you say, Apogee Mini Grands?And yes i have had many of the speakers mentioned above, as well as other highly regarded speakers! |
|
lots of different ideas here but in that price range I would have to go with Magnepan MG20's I don't own a pair or even a pair of planar speakers but they do somethings so well it's worth the compromise, but I have been wrong before. |
I've been posting on couple of threads here recommending Coincident technology speakers. I believe that Coincident Super Eclipse is THE best sounding speaker up to 10K. Period! Martin Logan Prodigy distant second, not for sound but for demanding nature, placement, kilowatts..etc! Vandersteen is highly overrated speakers, and they would be probably the best 20-30 years ago. |
Snooks - as one who has heard the speakers Rayhall writes about (the Sound Labs) let me say they are indeed magical. The Millennium-2's are in the ten grand ballpark, and will spoil you for the likes of the Prodigy's and Quad 989's (heard 'em both), as well as anything with a box (sorry Rayhall, that includes the Vandy 5's - though the Sound Labs are voiced kind of like the Vandys). In my experience Sound Lab owners no longer have any interest in shopping for speakers, and with good reason. Alas, still saving up my nickels... |
Snook2: As I stated earlier, I cannot personally vouch for the Soundlabs, but I offer them as one a prospective buyer should listen to, before buying in the 10K price range. I make this statement based on the opinions of people I respect, and with whom I have had a high degree of agreement in the past on what sounds right. You may not agree with my assessment of B&W, Dunlavy, Martin Logan etc., and that is your right to do so, but I think those speakers are lacking in one way or another-more so than the Vandersteens. John_l: Thanks for the heads-up. Although, I wasn't considering Vandersteen 5's for the Aleph, that is a possibility in the distant future. I have heard them with Nordost SPM speaker cables. I don't remember the interconnects. The CD player was a Wadia 860. |
Make that their (vandersteens) 'balanced hi pass filter'. They do make a single ended version too. |
Rayhall, Be careful if you demo a set of Vandersteen 5's. You cannot use a Pass Aleph amp with their balanced crossover. You could damage the speaker if you do. Apparently the Van 5 balanced crossover needs matching values for pos and neg legs. Most amps are this way, but the alephs are not. I talked to a pass labs tech, and he said he could modify the vand hipass filters for around $50. They just have to change capacitors to compensate. I'm using my vt100 to drive them now.
I am looking for speaker cables to use with mine. My red dawns bananas won't fit and I need to biwire. What speaker cables have you or others seen the Vandersteen 5 demoed with ? |
Metaphysics - thanks for sharing your experience. I find it hard to believe that the 5's are some sort of lemon, especially coming from Dynaudio, but I guess it wouldn't be un-precedented. In any case, they'd be my first inclination for upgrading my 3.0's based solely on price and manufacturer. And, I agree wholeheartedly that the discounted pricing is to the buyer's advantage - I always like a great deal! |
KThomas- I am currently running a pair of Confidence 5s and couldn't be happier. In my room (25'x19'), I don't find the bass to be lacking at all. The 5s are much more "analytical" than the 3.3s. This means that the 5s will more readily show deficiencies in the rest of the system. I also find that the 5s do voices better than any speaker to which I've listened. Matched up with great electronics, they are, IMHO, the best at $10k. As for discounted pricing, it's to the buyer's advantage. |
Rosstaman - thanks for the reply on the Confidence 5's vs. the 3.3's. I've never heard the 5's, but I find it almost weird that I've seen so many practically new ones advertised for 40-45% of retail, and you practically never see 3.3's used for sale. |
Rayhall, How can you give such a statement without ever hearing the Soundlabs. |
Now I'll offer up a speaker that I haven't heard. The Soundlab Millenium M-1 or Soundlab A-1. These speakers are electrostatics, not dynamic. People whose ears that I now and trust say these are even better than the Vandersteens. These are huge speakers, which unlike all other electrostatics deliver terrific deep bass, can play quite loudly (although not quite like dynamic speakers), and can disperse high frequency sound throughout a wide horizontal angle. The Millenniums won the Absolute Sound Golden Ear Award in 1999. If I had a dedicated room, with sufficient space, and the desire to spend this type of money on speakers, I would definitely check these out. Their dealer network is small and they are difficult to find in order to get an audition. Again, they require a high power, high current amplifier, but people who are in the know say that these are absolutely magical. Check them out at www.soundlab-speakers.com. Oh yeah. These two speakers are over 10K. I did see several great deals on used A-1's on this site and others around 5k. With no disrespect to others, if you get a good audition of Vandersteen and Soundlab's, and natural, full range sound reproduction is your goal. I think you will forget about names like B&W, Dunlavy and Martin Logan and Wilson Audio. IMO, these do not come close. |
Sschreiner: I heard the Vandersteen 5 with an Ayre V-1 (200 watts, solid state) and Ayre K-1 solid state preamp. It was magical. This is pretty expensive stuff. I would also recommend what I have now, which is a Pass Aleph 4 power amp and CAT SL-1 Ultimate preamp. If you want to spend less, you can look at amps by Marsh, Aloia, Monarchy, and possibly Electrocompaniet, as well as preamps by Audible Illusions, a used Audioprism Mantissa. As you can see, I am a solid state bigot (as far as power amps go), so you'll have to ask elsewhere for info about tube amps. These speakers may do well with tube amps. Since they have a built in amplifier to handle the bass, you will not be relying on your tube amp to deliver the bass which is where nearly all tube amps that I have heard fall down. Also, try to find a dealer who can properly set up and demonstrate the Vandersteen's. It is a difficult speaker to get "right". I highly recommend John at Audio Connection in Verona, N.J. |
I vote for the B&W N-802 or the N-801s..They are very beautiful sounding and definitely as good as any speakers out there in this price range. |
I think the Vandersteen 5's are excellent speaker eventhough I personally prefer the sound of Dunlavy's. The Vandy's sound superb driven with ARC VT-200. |
i prefer apogee diva, the are my choice! |
Rayhall: I'm very impressed with the Vandy 5's as well. What do you recommend as the "right" electronics? (My listening room is fairly large, high-ceiling, very bright w/hard surfaces.) |
Vandersteen 5. The best speaker that I have personally heard. Spacious airy highs that are not etched or unnatural. Transparent midrange. Beautiful vocals. Great soundstaging. Solid powerful bass, including deep bass, with which few, if any, of the speakers mentioned previously can compare. When matched with the right electronics, I think it really doesn't get much better than this. At any price. Don't buy until you have heard these speakers. |
Kthomas- The Dunlavy SCIVa and the Dunlavy Aletha were my second considerations. Actually, I was very impressed with the Martin Logen Prodigy, but my wife requested that the speakers look like furniture and not something out of Star Wars. |
Kthomas - The Dynaudio Confidence 5's had slightly better mid-range. Vocals especially sounded amazingly real. However, The Contour 3.3's were more full range and had better bass. It was not an easy decision, but when I went back and forth between the Confidence 5's and the Contour 3.3's, the Contour 3.3 just sounded better to me. I used the same cd's when I audition every speaker. They were the opening track of Eric Clapton's Unplugged, Sir Neville Mariner and the Academy...Vivaldi's Four Seasons, Louie Armstrong meets Duke Ellington-The Summit opening track: Duke's Place, and Pink Martini's opening track: Ameda Mio. |
If,if,if...you have a big room without rectangular geometry (vaulted beamed ceiling per se) with high current amps and quality (other) componets and optimized wire you cannot beat the Dunlavy SC-5s used. This also assumes optimal placement. Payoff is near world class performance. |
I auditioned the Martinlogan protidigies and I must say without any reservation that I do enjoy the sound and the look. I was a bit apprehensive about the price and I believed that they can be purchased a some discount--By the way Harvey' electronics is given a sale until january 31st-- Happy shopping.. |
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Voce Divina Tenore!!!! Basically, I threw away my Wilson watts, Kharma2, Sonus Fabers, B&W N-801 for these. These suckers are the most natural sounding speakers in the PLANET! All these in my list pales in comparison with the Tenore, especially the Q.Millenio Tenore which is the latest one! Heard it at the distributors house driven by custom tubes amps and AHHHHH!!!! it's the BEst Ive heard period! |
The Infinity Epsilon has a great soundstage and a impressive bass. On the moment you can get them for a great deal This speaker tested Top 10 overall. |
