Vintage DD turntables. Are we living dangerously?

@downunder   

in Italy has not yet arrived but it should still be a few weeks away

It’s like the original first press versus the remastered reissue.

Top quality vintage analog gear has it’s own glory.
Vintage turntable in perfect condition is also an investment, the price only goes up in time. Luckily we have people who can calibrate them, refurbish them or even upgrade them. Doing it by our own is even more interesting, but not each one can do that. But most of them are just fine and need no service at all. Turntables from the 70s and 80s are amazing, it’s a pleasure to have them and use them, same with tonearms and cartridges from that era. They are all reasonably priced today and it’s great. That was the golden age of the analog. No reason to sell them even if that new Sp-10R is very very good (sooner or later it will be on the used market too). 

@chakster   

+1  :)

Dear @downunder : The SP-10MK3 is a great unit but the new Technics design comes with fundamental/vital characteristics/changes over the MK3 where the MK3 can't compete no matter what: the new Technics comes with a totally new motor design and now is coreless, its TT bearing is way superior, the TT platter is way better damped than the " ringing " MK3 and many other superior characteristics.

No, I don't have yet the opportunity to listen it but I don't need to listen to know its superiority and you neither.

It's the time to let it go the MK3 and MK2s.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

It's the time to let it go the MK3 and MK2s.

Never, rather death!!!       :)

rauliruegas"The SP-10MK3 is a great unit but the new Technics design comes with fundamental/vital characteristics/changes over the MK3 where the MK3 can't compete no matter what...No, I don't have yet the opportunity to listen it but I don't need to listen to know its superiority and you neither."This is the single most extreme example of so-called "conformation bias' that I have ever seen in this distinguished forum it is interesting how some of the contributors to this forum who most claim to be objective and scientific type who embrace data and verifiable results can make such a holy pronouncement about the inherent audible superiority of one device over another without ever having even heard the specific device that they say they prefer! It is this same faith-based belief in measurements in the absence of any hands on experience that results in these same self appointed gurus proclaiming for example that cables make no difference and that every well designed amplifier within certain limits sound the same! Of course they sound the same and is no difference if you never listen and even if they do as is made clear here their mind is made up they care convinced! Confirmation bias!

I agree with Raul that a coreless motor, executed to the level of excellence of the iron core motor in the Mk3, would in theory be superior for the job of driving a platter.  However, Raul's additional contention that the Mk3 platter, all 21 lbs of it, is subject to "ringing", is absurd on its face.  It weighs 21 lbs! It is made of stainless, brass, and iron all bonded together powerfully and therefore benefits from CLD.  Any solid object will resonate at some frequency or other if hit with a mallet, but the notion that the Mk3 platter, among all turntable platters in the world, is particularly subject to ringing is.... (I guess I already said... absurd.) 

Time, and some intrepid pioneer who listens to both turntables side by side, will eventually tell us if the SP10R really has a leg up on the SP10 Mk3.  My guess is that the Mk3 is already operating at such a high level (in the DD pantheon) that discerning whether the 10R is really superior is going to be like arguing the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin.  (Siri knows this, if you've ever asked her.)

This recent discussion reminds me of the "Princess and the Pea"* fairy tale.  But then that applies to many aspects of our high end audio hobby.

No doubt the new Technics SP10R is an upgrade from the older SP-10 Mk 3, and more so from earlier models, at least on paper.  However I believe two considerations should be made.  First, how much of an audible difference will the improvements make?  That answer may vary from one system to another.  Second is the cost.  I've read the SP10R will be priced at $10K in the US, with the complete unit with arm and plinth at $20K.  Many of us own older models with less investment, so the question becomes how much improvement will be realized and is it worthwhile to each of us individually?

Anyway, my hat is off to Technics for developing this updated model.

*No, the Princess didn't have a bed-wetting problem. ;^)

I also know Siri has no hair, but the Statements made without
ever listening to the tables in question by Raul are simply
without merit.

And I won't even get into his TT-101 comments.

the Technics SP 10 R has a switching power supply, it can be an economic advantage for Matsushita but I do not like this kind of power supply; fortunately, the power supply is far from the drive unit, but it could trigger spurious feeds of the nearby connected electronics.

@lewm should not the MK3 platter have thick rubber under it as for MK2?

Dear @lewm : Maybe " ringing " was an exageration: mea culpa. Look, those 21 lbs and the build materials and as you said does not impedes resonances. Micro Seiki big TTs has even weigthy blended metal platters that rings like a bell and I mean it because I own it. No the MK3 is far away from the MS in that regards. So, stay calm about.

Do you know why you prefers the Dp-80 over the TT-101?, not only because better specs but even that the DP-80 platter is not a heavy one like the MK3 and others is way silent that many due to the double platter design and even that my Denon units are dampened by me with a damped material underside the bi-platter.

@totem395 the point that you can’t understand how in " hell " any one can makes such kind of statements with the new Technics vs the MK3 ( that I know very well. ) only talks of different training levels between you and me and obviously different knowledge and ignorance levels in between.

I know very well Technics and I know that they can’t celebrates that great anniversary with SL-1000R if that unit been not superior to what the did it in those old times.

Technics has and never forgot its CULTURE and still belongs to the Mathushita group because of that and they are taking advantages of all that amazing audio culture they seeded over the years with the latest technology at hand today.
They are not a " garage " audio manufacturer and seems to me that you just ignore everything of what Technics name really means its real meaning.

Think in different way with other premises can be a misunderstood by your self or by other gentlemans that think like you.

When Denon comes again to competes Technics you can be sure that the items will be superior to the DP-80 or even the DP-100. Same for Pionner or Yamaha.

TT-101?: did you read the @lewm where by a " hair " he prefers the DP80 over a refurbished TT-101?
JVC/VICTOR never competes vs Technics, Denon, Pioneer or Yamaha regarding TTs or at least at that levels. Is a good unit but that’s all. If you own the TT-101 just put on sale and buy the new Technics or even a vintage Denon.
Btw, who told you that the TT-101 is so " superlative " as you think because that's a total misunderstodd by your self or the one that told you?

@best-groove you even do not own those Technics. I don’t understand your post. Anyway, this is an opportunity for people like you that in the near future will afford the MK3/MK2 with lower prices than last year.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@best-groove: http://fidelisanalog.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2018/03/IMG_1686.jpg

Dear Raul, If I did write that I prefer the DP80 over the TT101, it was a typographical error.  Because the opposite is true, although I do like and admire the DP80 very much.  (I did and do say that the DP80 is less colored than the two SP10 Mk2's that I have owned.) I think if you'll re-read my post, you'll find you misinterpreted my words; I prefer the TT101 to the DP80 by a smidgeon.  This means very little to anyone else. It's only my personal opinion.  I will say also that the TT101 plinth should be discarded in favor of a more modern and higher mass design, IMO. That makes a lot of difference to the performance in my experience.  Halcro and Thuchan (and also I) have done this.

I think you were quoting me, when you wrote, "those 21 lbs and the build materials and as you said does not impedes resonances".  But I think you got me wrong, again.  I wrote that the material composition of the Mk3 platter makes it rather more immune than most to resonating at a single frequency, because of the CLD construction.  I then went on to concede that anything will resonate if you whack it hard enough, which IMO is an irrelevant way to test platters.  But the MK3 platter would tend to resonate in a broad band of low amplitude, again because of its composite construction. The bottom line is that compared to most other platters, the Mk3 platter is more dead.  I can only hope that the SP10R platter is as dead.  It's lighter in weight, according to specs I read.  Don't get me wrong, however, I would love to own a 10R some day.

The MS platter may or may not be resonant, but those heavy platters are made of a single metal, which may make a difference.

@rauliruegas 
I see you have miss quoted me also, I did not say how in "hell"
anywhere in my post but still find your your sweeping 
assumptions of others opinions off putting.

But carry on as usual. 

@jpjones   I see many thanks ;)

Btw, who told you that the TT-101 is so " superlative " as you think because that's a total misunderstodd by your self or the one that told you?

Uhh....let's see....
Apart from me and Lewm, there's Audpulse, HiHo, Aigenga, Thuchan and someone called Harry Weisfeld who wrote in 2014

I have a Kenwood LO-7D, a JVC TT101 (best of all of them), MS DDX-1000, an SP-10 Mk-2, etc. All are wonderful.....

The TT-101 inspired Harry to design the VPI-Direct which, together with the $105,000 Techdas AF 1, are still the only A+ turntables on the Stereophile 'Recommended Components' List.

@best-groove you even do not own those Technics.

And Raul does not own a TT-101.
Nor has he even heard one.
A few years ago he bought a Victor TT-71 and because he has a 'need' to have the 'best'.....he declared the TT-71 better than the TT-81 and TT-101.
He has never even heard the Denon 100M which he continually praises based on its specifications.
Ask Thuchan how the Denon 100M (in his bedroom system) compares to the TT-101 in his main system.....😎

A few years ago he bought a Victor TT-71 and because he has a 'need' to have the 'best'.....he declared the TT-71 better than the TT-81 and TT-101.

lol.....it is not necessary to make a religious war ....every enthusiast pushes his idols and his ideas forward  I suppose

every enthusiast pushes his idols and his ideas forward I suppose

There is nothing offensive in doing that.....
But Raul is almost alone, in consistently denigrating other equipment and other contributors’ systems.
Whether it’s cartridges, tonearms, turntables, phono stages, amplifiers or speakers......he has expended almost as much energy in these Forums, on his subjective negativity and personal vitriol, as on his (often) valuable positive insights.

And that IS offensive to many of us.......🤔

Dear @halcro : I heard not one time but several times the DP-100 through the Denon distributor/dealer in Laredo,Tx where I bougth my DP-75 and 80. I posted more than once that I never had the kind of money to buy it P.Layandeker ( pass on. ) was a really Denon dealer enthusiast he always was in love with Denon and Treshold. One of the very first USA presentation of the DP-100 was at Audio Den in Laredo and I attended and during the demostration Peter puts his little boy stand up at the DP-100 plinth during play to demo that how good was the very well damping system of the unit and you know what the music playing there was listened the same with the boy there and with out him ! !. So you are totally wrong with what you posted.

In the other side I listen my 71 " face to face " a 81 ( both stok units. ) and I did not see any single advantage over the 71 that was my unit and no I never had that opportunity against the 101.

Btw, whom is H.Weisfield or Thuchan, only two other persons as you or me nothing more. Differences as always are based and has its foundations on: self training, knowledge levels and ignorance levels and I can see that you never grow-up and stay stick there for ever. That you still own the 101 and those SAEc tonearms and many other audio items you own speaks for you alone. Your words has not a real significance when what you try to show with out success. Thuchan is only a wealthy gentleman with not very high knowledge levels in audio and MUSIC, at least is not what he shows, I have several " anecdotes " with him ( maybe he improves . ) that are facts but he is not the subject here.

Every one has its own all those characteristics levels and if those self audiophile characteristics are low or high is not offensive to speaks about. You can’t hide behind money or behind other audiophiles. You me and every one else are what we are. If I have a mediocrity level you can be sure that no matter what I can’t hide it and you can’t hide your real level.

You as best-groove still after so many years just can’t understand my posts because stay sticked in the past but all in the world in changing every second and audio is not the exeption.

Btw, @lewm I think that you neither took my point: I said that Technics takes all its accumulated audio cuklture with the today audio technology/materials/electronics at hand that they did not has in those all times so makes sense that their new units be superior to the vintage ones. @lewm wake up: your unit comes from 1981 and today we are in March 2018 ! ! that makes adifference: don’t you think? In the other side camn you share if your DP-80 is a refurbished unit?, thank’s in advance.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

When I purchased my DP80, it was not running correctly.  It did "run" but there was a problem; at this point in time I've forgotten what it was. It's a 100VAC model, and the seller told me he ran it with 120VAC. No wonder it was problematic.

I gave it to Bill Thalmann. Bill replaced all the electrolytic capacitors and replaced many of the discrete transistors for modern ones that according to Bill perform better and are more reliable.  I also obtained a new chip from a vendor in Hong Kong.  This single chip is essential to normal operation of most of the high end Denons, and Bill installed the new one in mine, mainly because that was found to be the source of the original problem.  Bill also calibrated the unit, and I have had zero problems with it since then.  (I will say this: In my experience, the DP80 after Bill worked on mine is more reliable than the TT101, but this is comparing only one sample of each.  Hardly worth drawing any conclusion from that.)

The difference between 1981 and 2018 is going to be mostly in the fact that these days we have faster and more complex ICs.  I am not sure that that is an important advantage for modern DD turntables vs vintage ones, because the operation of the servo governing both is not "rocket science".  In fact, there may be some advantage to slower reacting corrections coming from the servo. (That's a subject for another thread, I guess.)  The L07D, for example, deliberately relies more on platter inertia than on rapid, frequent servo corrections to maintain constant speed.  In this way, the design contrasts with Technics.  I can't prove it, but I have often wondered whether the seductive "liquidity" of the sound from the L07D has something to do with this aspect of its design. (My latest experiments with the L07D also suggest that one MUST add EMI shielding under the platter in order to get the most out of it. Without added shielding, there's a faint "gray"-ish coloration that causes the sound to hang on the speakers and reduces the dynamics.)  On the opposite side of the ledger, modern corporations tend to be run by accountants who are all about reducing costs.

Also, from what I read when it was introduced, the Grand Prix Monaco has space age speed correction, possibly faster than any other design.  Is anyone in love with the GP Monaco?

Also, don't you think we can dismiss the Stereophile ratings of anything? It's just commercial crap. We know that many great pieces of gear never see the light of day on that listing.

lewm

When I purchased my DP80, it was not running correctly. It did "run" but there was a problem; at this point in time I've forgotten what it was. It's a 100VAC model, and the seller told me he ran it with 120VAC. No wonder it was problematic.

Yup, no wonder. I do not believe that the DP-80 was ever made in a 120VAC model. When I bought my DP-80 back in the late-70s - brand new from a Denon dealer -  it was delivered with a Denon-branded step-down transformer.

Dear @cleeds : You are rigth the DP-80 never was manufactured to run at 120VAC . My unit comes exaxctly as yours but the 75 comes with no step down transformer.

I think that the unit that bougth lewm was modified in some ways to run at 120VAC.

I don't know other DP-80 owners but my unit from new ( and the 75 too. )  always play as " new " and I have in stock status. 

Btw, maybe the 101 design is very good but the JVC excecution was not at levels of Denon or Technics and even its manufacturer specs are inferior to the Denon's.

101:  w&f  0.020%    s/n   75db  speed accuracy   0.002%

DP-75:  w/f   0.15%    s/n   80db   speed accuracy    0.002%

Even the JVC 71 has better spec than the 101 in s/n db. Main difference between the 71 and 81 is the double/bi-directional servo that does not comes in the 71 and of course the higher price.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Dear Raul,

If you heard no differences between the TT-71 and TT-81....then something was very wrong.
Either the TT-81 was faulty, the system it was connected to was not revealing or you are simply unable to hear discriminately  🤔
The differences between the TT-81 and TT-71 are far more marked than those between the TT-81 and TT-101 starting with the bi-directional servo control which is a patented breakthrough in DD technology and is the reason that the Yamaha GT-2000 (which uses the same Victor bi-directional servo motor) is so desirable.

Halcro, do you have the patent number?  The TT-101 service manual describes the bi-directional servo as the differences between a simple F/V servo which has to coast to slow down, and a PLL which is bi-directional in this sense, and is something every 'table with a PLL (aka Quartz Locked) has.  

Dear @halcro : Fortunatelly the JVC chasis is very similar to my Denons and I mounted both in the custom plinths of both Denons with the same tonearm. Maybe you are rigth and I am " simple unable to hear discriminately..".

You need to grow-up in your knowledge and ignorance levels. I don't know what happens with you because I think that in this same thread ( if not in other where you posted too. ) I posted that that " touted " bi-directional servo in the JVC and that for you is the " penultimate wonder " on TT was a unique in JVC designs when was and not is  ( I don't know where you try to learn or with what kind of audio advisors you are surrounded. ) that way because not only what jp posted but Denon stated about that bi-directional servo in its DP-70M and latter on the DP70L models.

I assume that you think that discovered the " black thread " with the JVC. Wrong, nothing special. It's one units in the  japanese TTs bunch and that's all. Obviously that when some one ignore audio information can makes a misunderstanding in this and other audio subjects.

So, what are you talking about?

Better than that please do it a favor let it go the JVC in change for the new Technics units.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Perhaps this is what Halcro is referring to: https://patents.google.com/patent/US4888564A/en?q=phase&q=lock+loop&oq=phase+lock+loop. From a brief glance, it looks like what is described in the tt101's service manual. Perhaps it is related to the pitch control capabilities that the tt101 and tt81 possess and their other turntables, e.g. tt 71, don't. I leave it to those with superior technical minds to render judgment.

For those who prefer their information concatenated with pretty pictures, Vinyl Engine has several jvc brochures from the late 70's which describe the merits of their line of quartz turntables (along with the 'numbers' for each turntable in a convenient side by side format).

One other tidbit relating to the differences between the tt101 and the tt 81/71 is this: only the 101 has a coreless motor. If one is to praise Technics for utilizing this type of motor in their new design (they are terribly late to the game, no?), then one should acknowledge at the very least that the 101 should sound different, and likely better, than its siblings. To dismiss the 101 after listening only to its siblings therefore strikes me as a logical error.

Jp,
Hopefully you can make sense out of what Banquo managed to find...?

I can only add that all of Victor's other turntables have PLL controlled motors but only a few (TT-81 and TT-101) include 'bi-directional servo-control' in their descriptions.

If what you say is true about all PLL servos....why do you think this would be?

The Jvc Victor has patented this many years after the ceased production of the TT-101 81 and TT801 what sense does this have if it will probably not produce more important or top-level turntables?

He has never heard the Technics SL-1000R...
He has never heard the Victor TT-101....
But he KNOWS what they sound like and he KNOWS  which is better....

No Reviewer nor serious knowledgeable audiophile would make such uninformed statements.
But that is the 'cut' of the man......

Dear @banquo363 : The 71/81 came with coreless motor, you have a misunderstanding. The 71 has not bi-directional servo.

@halcro , wrong again Yamaha ( my hands are tired to gives you the same answer: wrong again and again. Please stop to post, enough is enough. You are totally wrong. From where you learned or I have to say ....) used Yamaha motors not JVC motors both are way different and measures different: 75db against 85db in the Yamaha. That Yamaha used the PLL mechanism too is not why the GT2000 is so desirable.


GT2000 is so desirable by its own Yamaha design merits that has nothing to do with the 101.  The GT 2000 can check its hands with the DP100, Exclusive P3A opr Technics SP10 MK3. The 101 is one more of the " bunch ": no matter what. Can you understand it? can you understand why are you wrong again and again? Can you understand that the " black thread " you think discovered was  not but a " black thread clown " ? It's a good unit well the Pionners, Denons Sonys or Technics are good ones and I'm not refering to the top of the line of all these manufacturers that  all are way superiors to the 101. Problem is that your world start and ends with the |101.


"""   which is a patented breakthrough in DD technology """ NO IT'S NOT, only in your mind. Dion't you read here that Denon did it along Yamaha, Pioneer and several other TT manufacturers? At least try to read what you read carefully ! ! ? ?


"""  but only a few (TT-81 and TT-101) include 'bi-directional servo-control' in their description .."""

wrong again, the 801 too and the Denons too stated bi-directional in their descrptions.

Masoquist never tired about.

@best-groove, is useless give/gave facts as the date patent  with @halcro . This gentleman just can't see/read/understand facts.
Her argued because he want to " win " when the subject here is not who win or lost but to understand what is happening " down there ". Easy.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I don’t want to touch the argument about vintage vs new production DD Technics with a 10-foot pole. Nor do I even want to argue about which vintage DD turntable sounds best; all the best ones have avid supporters.

But, Raul,  I wrote that my DP80, like I guess all DP80s, was made to run on 100VAC. The seller (person who sold it to me) told me he had been running it at 120VAC. In other words, he ignored the labeling on the side of the chassis. (He was in California, where some rules of nature can be broken.) He even said it was running OK on 120VAC, but it was not. There was no evidence that the power supply had been deliberately modified in any way to work at 120VAC, although that might be possible to do. In fact, I always suspected that the malfunctioning of the control IC was caused by his subjecting the turntable to excess AC voltage. So, there was nothing out of the ordinary about my DP80.  I bought step-down transformers on eBay, one each for the L07D and the DP80.  Oddly enough, my TT101 does have the capacity to take 120V, 100V, and maybe even 240V, by setting the primary of the power transformer.  Someone else told me that there were a batch of 120V TT101s made to be sold at US military PXs in Japan, and mine might be one of those. 

@l it was cleeds whom posted first and then I gave him an agreement on it. That's all.

Take care.

hi Raul: "The 71/81 came with coreless motor, you have a misunderstanding. The 71 has not bi-directional servo."

Perhaps you are right and my 'audio education' has been adversely affected by those from whom I choose to learn and listen to. But don't blame me, I've been hanging out with the crowd in this thread for years!

Seriously though, the resident motor 'expert' on this thread was hiho, and if I recall correctly he owned several tt71's and insisted, when the question arose regarding what kind of motor it and the tt81 had, that it was a cored one. Moreover, in the JVC catalog I referred to above, the side by side turntable descriptions have "coreless DC servomotor" under the tt101 and just "DC servomotor" under all the other tables (in that catalog--which didn't include the tt801).

Can you tell me then why you believe 81/71 have coreless motors? Perhaps you have a definitive catalog you could share? And if the 81 does have a coreless motor then, given that it possesses the same speed control as the 101, what is the difference between the two--only the digital speed counter?

You are totally wrong. From where you learned or I have to say ....) used Yamaha motors not JVC motors both are way different and measures different: 75db against 85db in the Yamaha.

Wrong.....

As only the Japanese can do, it was a co-operative effort designed by Yamaha in conjunction with Micro Seiki using a motor and motor control electronics from the Japan Victor engineer who designed the motor and motor control electronics for the TT-81.

Mostly Micro Seiki mechanicals and Victor electronics.

The 71/81 came with coreless motor, you have a misunderstanding.

 
Wrong......

TT-81

Motor: DC servomotor

Drive system: direct drive

Speeds: 33 and 45rpm

Speed detection: integrated frequency generator

Servo system: quartz locked positive and negative servo control

Starting time: within 1 second

Wow and flutter: 0.025% WRMS

Rumble: 63dB

Speed deviation: within 0.002%

Platter: 310mm diecast aluminium

Dimensions: 150 x 358 x 358mm

Weight: 8kg

TT-101

Motor: coreless DC servo motor

Drive system: direct drive

Speeds: 33 and 45rpm

Speed detection: integrated frequency generator

Servo system: quartz locked positive and negative servo control

Pitch control: +-6Hz

Starting time: within 0.6sec

Wow and flutter: within 0.02% WRMS

S/N: 75dB

Starting torque: 1.2kg/cm

Speed deviation: 0.002%

Load characteristics: 0% (with a 120g total tracking force)

Drift: 0.0004%

Platter: 310mm aluminium diecast

Dimensions: 150 x 358 x 358mm

Weight: 10kg

Sigh......so much mis-information

I do not think that the choice of one engine instead of another makes all this huge difference and I would not take this parameter too seriously to think that a turntable is better; I rather believe that everything in composing a turntable makes the difference better or worse than the competition.

There is no way the TT-71 aka QL-7  in N.A. a base model is coreless
but coming from raul its simply another off the cuff 
nonsensical remark.

Dear @banquo363 : Something is wrong somewhere ( maybe you are rigth. ) and maybe the 71 is not coreless. Here says that it’s along the 81:

""" TT-71 in clear bracketsMotor :FG detecting Coreless DC ServoDrive type :direct-driveServo type :Quartz Lock +/- Servo {Quartz Lock Servo}Speeds :33 1/3 & 45rpmPitch range :±6Hz from 440Hz {fixed}Speed change :electronic / electronic switches {electronic / touch sensors}Rise time :1s (33 1/3 rpm ; 120° turn) {1,4s ; 180° turn}0,025% (WRMS)Wow & flutter :63dB (IEC)S/N ratio :73dB (DIN-B ..."""

""" Precise FG detecting section consists of 180 slots FG yoke with a magnetic disc and an FG circuit board with equivalent 180 printed coils for excellent precision of rotation.
The servo is applied on both positive and negative areas for the TT-81, but only on positive for the TT-71. """


and in what halcro posted ( GT2000. ) says " JVC TT81 .... ""

About the GT2000 the motor is Yamaha the differences on specs are to high in between. I think that other than Denon, Technics and Pioneer other manufacturers can buy some parts from other sources as Micro Seiki than choosed for Technics/Panasonic motors but that does not says in the GT2000 that uses the 101 motor as @halcro think and what @best-groove posted is true a TT is not one characteristic design. In the other side what MS sourced to Yamaha was the platter overall design.
The fact that MS used in the RX5000 Panasonic motor certainly was not the main reason the MS units were " so desirable " because almost all owners of MS not even knew about. Same for Yamaha and other manufacturers. 

Anyway the JVC never competed not even with the 801 against the other named here top TT’s and that pátent is only bs and not as @halcro think that is the unique " all centuries invent " .

That he still sticked with the 101 even today says what he likes it: a lesser quality performance and not at the top as he think. Come on @halcro nothing wrong against you from my part but when even today you still listen music through those SAECs and FRs and the like how can I think of you in different way.

Anyway, each one of us are happy with what we own and at the end is what really matters.
Enough for me.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Audiophiles buy Lyra cartridges because Scan-Tech is the builder or because is Lyra and all what this means?

R.

The TT801, so far as I can tell, is nothing but a TT101 with vacuum platter.  This required a large wooden box to house the pump and added a lot of tubes and channels inside the chassis that could cause problems.  The motor and the electronics seem to be identical between the 101 and 801.  Vacuum platter is not my cup of tea anyway (because of the potential to add noise), but if you like it, you can add the Audio Technica platter mat with built in vacuum to a TT101 or most any other turntable; you don't need the 801 to get there.  Yet the TT801 seems to command big bucks in the marketplace, maybe as a collectible.  Otherwise, I don't know why.

Dear @lewm :  I think you have a misunderstood about because the 801 measures way better than the 101, so exist some kind of refinements in its design that were not available in its little brother.

W&F   0.01%  and S/N  -80db.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

WOW! Reading through all of this, the parts I can understand anyway, I am well aware I am way out of touch these days.
All of my gear is from what I called the "Golden Age" when I mustered out of the USN after Vietnam. With my pockets somewhat full I began putting together my system and building on it for a few years until I had what I thought was pretty good. Not so great by any standards of today but happy to report what I bought back in the mid 1970s is still going strong and I still love my music.
For the TT I selected the Luxman PD 121 with an SME 309 TA fitted with a Denon 103 MC and Denon 320 matching transformer. Later on I added a Technics SL1200 MKll for the vinyl I had that may have seen some bumps along the way.
After all this reading I have to ask am I doing wrong. I do not use the Luxman often at all unless I get in the mood to spin some of my better vinyls and that means it sometimes does not get used for over a year at a time. Some here say that it is best to use it rather than allow it to set. All I know is when ever I do decide to spin it it is spot on just the way it always has been and sounds great played through my Sansui G-9000 and Altec 19s. This discussion made me do some math but most of my gear is well over 40 years old but still doing just fine and I highly doubt I will ever need to update any of it with newer offerings. All I have ever done is cleaned a few contacts, mostly in the receiver, and kept all my components clean and dust free. The SL 1200 is the workhorse and about as bulletproof as can be and only ever gets a cartridge or stylus change once in a great while. I doubt any of this stuff can be repaired if something goes simply because the parts likely don't exist except for the Altecs thanks to GPA. I don't run in circles where I get to hear what the new stuff has to offer and none of my pals have any interest in good tunes now in our late 60s. My wife and I do enjoy doing concerts here at home but just the two of us when we decide to crank it up a bit and give the 19s a workout. I often say I am and Analog guy stuck in a digital world and most of my family youngsters never even heard a vinyl album played the way they were back in the "Olden Days". They seem very satisfied with what ever comes from their phones through ear buds but they do want to get behind my gear and do hook ups so they can hear their tunes through my 19s. Never going to happen as long as I am here.
Great discussion here so carry on and all I wanted to say is if you buy quality stuff I hope it can last as long as what I bought but it just does not appear to be going that way.

Dear @halcro and friends: I don’t know whom was your " friend " that told you about the 101 but his advise wa a true deceive even a true fraud because it’s a deceive think or let some one thinks that something is way beeter that what in reality it’s.

As I posted here and elsewhere from years is that the 101 is nothing more than one more TT from the pile/bunch of TTs in those times and certainly nothing especial as you still think today. Not even its superior big brother 801, not even this!

Your 101 dream in reality is a " nigthmare " and I understand that with all the time and money that you puts on it as other 101 owners you must " be satisfied " with because you already wasted time and money on it. So no one can says it’s not a true top tier.

Take a look to any of these members of that big TT pile/bunch that not only competes with the 101 but all outperforms it and between other things measures a lot better than the 101 and please if you can’t understand yet how with out hearing an item I can have an opinion on it then don’t give me your answer:

Pioneer: PL1/3F/5L/7l/70L, Denon: DP75/59L, Sony 555/X700, Yamaha: GT750/D71, JVC: 44F/66/A70/75 and many many other TTs.

Of course that you can go on with your " nigthmare " and even the worst nigthmare /dream finishs through the time.

Any one can beats the 101 with the SL- 1200G/1200GR that comes with tonearm included!!


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

Unhinged.......? 🙈

Hi Halcro, 

I don't know the the patent applies due to the date as pointed out.  Appears to be interesting reading that I hope to get to at some point.

 I doubt any of this stuff can be repaired if something goes simply because the parts likely don't exist

wrong thinking, of the Technics 1200 lies almost everything.

Dear friends: If we analizes step by step this thread and all the posted facts coming from each one of us we can think or better yet I think on it as what happens with a horse/gazelle stampedes where each member runs with out no single and true reason and runs because one to " nervous " member started to run to stay aways from " danger " that not really exist where some of those horses’s stapedes ends when the horses falls down a precipice.

There are several facts that tell us that exist no reason to the 101 " stampede " where no one of you stampede’s members never asked why you run and followed running till falls down: down there.

The " nervous " member that started the stampede not only " figured " that the 101 competes with the SP10MK2/3 or DP-100 or Exclusive P3 or Yamaha GT2000 or other top vintage or today units. Obviously the facts tell and told to all the stampede’s members that the 101 just can’t competes at that level and that’s only one parte of the average mediocrity even its price tell us:

when the mid-fi ( not top tiers. ) Denon ( 70/75 ), Technics ( SP15/25. ), Marantz, Pionners, Onkyo and even JVC models were all marketed with way higher prices than the 101 no one of you took in count. Even the JVC 70 that came with plinth and tonearm its price was only 65K yens ( higher than the 101 and like other 10 JV models the 70 came with coreless motor and double directional servos. ) when the P3 was 650K yens and the DP-100 900K yens and the Final or MS 1800K yens ! !

@halcro do you need more evidence on why I write here that this thread is the " century’s stampede " a glorious one where all the stampede’s members unfortunatily are in that deep cliff.

No, there are so many reasons why I was not a stampede member.

No one of you stopped ( at some time. ) to ask your self: hey what am I doing with? where are those reward? why is worth to do it?

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

‘Alternate facts’......? 
👺

Dear friends: Another problem with that kind of " stamped " is that if one member ask to other: where go we?, the answer is: don't ask and keep running. Stamped leaves us to : nowhere. Terrible.

@halcro : """  Unhinged.......? 🙈   """   

‘Alternate facts’......?
👺

those are your normal answers because almost ever/never have facts and share those " facts " ( if any. ) where you founded your " way of thinking ".

This thread shows that. No one of your posts tells any one you are rigth to started the " stamped ".

Obviously the thread is a learning lessons even for the ones that choosed don't participate in the " stampede " or in that lewm " terrorist " way of think: " change the caps and other parts on those vinatge TTs....... ".

@halcro , I hope that you learned too through this thread lessons . I have to say that I learned, thank's for that.

Enough, time to buy any of the new Technics TTs.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

rauliruegas

Dear @downunder : The SP-10MK3 is a great unit but the new Technics design comes with fundamental/vital characteristics/changes over the MK3 where the MK3 can't compete no matter what: the new Technics comes with a totally new motor design and now is coreless, its TT bearing is way superior, the TT platter is way better damped than the " ringing " MK3 and many other superior characteristics.

No, I don't have yet the opportunity to listen it but I don't need to listen to know its superiority and you neither.  (??)

It's the time to let it go the MK3 and MK2s.

Really?
With all due respect to this person, I cannot disagree more with this post.  Where to begin....first, people bear in mind, the drive architecture of the SP10R is cloned from the little brother SL-1200 G.  The new dc motor adds a second set of stator windings for increased torque and like the 1200G is coreless and brushless.  Both torque and power of the MK3 dc motor is measurably greater. The 10R bearing remains tiny compared to the SP10MK3's oversized bearing, its a toothpick.  The platter is multi layered, damped and dynamically balanced, like the Mk3, but weighs significantly less.  The power supply is switching type, not a proper linear power supply, which the MK3 has.  By the way, none of the stated factory specifications published by Technics thus far for the SP10R surpass the Technics Sp10MK3 technical bench specifications, nada = none.  By the way, those whom actually own one can confirm the SP10MK3 platter does not have unwanted "ringing" characteristics.  In my eyes, this makes it more of a new SP10MK2 v.2 per se, than anything else.

I'll be ordering a new Technics SP10R at some point for fun to compare and because I think its a neat refresh of an established benchmark, but need to make some room first! ;)