This is a discussion that for me began on the Stereophile forum which went horribly wrong in my opinion. I was wondering though if this same topic could be discussed here as it comes up a lot in one form or another. My background has been about vibratory tuning as far back as the 70's work in the recording industry and continued into home audio and beyond. The audio signal is one that can be easily tuned, I doubt there is much room there for debate, but we will see, it's Audiogon after all. This being the case I have always concluded that the audio signal is vibratory so has anyone I have ever worked with. It's a common and sometimes even daily practice for someone here to make a vibratory adjustment changing the sound which is obvious to all.
On some of these forum threads however you will see posts saying to get rid of the vibration, without any explanation as to how to remove vibration without altering the audio signal. Every vibratory move I have ever seen done changes the performance of the sound. I've also been a part of the variables of the audio signal during play in real time. If the audio signal is not vibratory how does it change?
I invite you to discuss the vibratory structure and nature of the audio signal.
derekw_hawaii Fascinatiing theortical discussion. But can any of the posters share some of their personal real world diy tweaks, like the 3/24 post superball suggestion, that we normal people can apply in our systems? Gracias, in advance.
Here are a few, in no particular order. Impress your friends!
1. Wrap the bottom of all house exterior drainpipes with a single 12” black cable tie. Don’t over-tighten. 2. Remove all telephone books from the building. 3. Remove all cell phones from the building. 4. If you store your LPs and/or CDs horizontally put them all in the vertical position.
Fascinatiing theortical discussion. But can any of the posters share some of their personal real world diy tweaks, like the 3/24 post superball suggestion, that we normal people can apply in our systems? Gracias, in advance.
The Hubble Space Telescope (launched almost 30 years ago) has a pointing stability of 0.007 arcsec. Post repair. Ha ha. The James Webb Space Telescope which replaces the Hubble has a pointing stability of nearly twice Hubble’s. 0.004 arcsec. Since onboard motors and other sources of vibration reduce resolution of the Space Telescope’s optics great efforts are made to isolation vibration on board. You could say the vibration isolation on the Space Telescope is analogous to vibration isolation for a CD player since optics are involved in both cases.
CD players provide a tiny spring system for the laser assembly, which allows the laser freedom of motion during servo movements and also provides some degree of isolation to the laser assembly, since very low frequency vibration would obviously be unwanted, what with the nanoscale data spiral on the CD and the nanoscale laser beam width. This is precisely why CD players benefit from competent, I.e., very low Fr, vibration isolation. The tiny spring system that supports the laser assembly is tuned to too high an Fr to prevent extremely low seismic type vibrations from degrading the laser read operation.
Referring to it as an observatory kind of demonstrates you got what the acronym LIGO stands for and that’s about as far as you got. Oh, well, as Randall McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest tells the other inmates distainfully after failing miserably to lift the 300 lb water fountain, “At least I tried!”
My studies have always been in the vibratory realm so using vibratory analogies are common place for me. Hope that explains why I tend to drift to those areas for pulling examples. I consulted for West Virginia’s engine lab, Herman Miller, Vanderbilt University Laser Dept and was a part of UMI (united musical instruments) among other vibratory ventures (SUNY Music of course) and in doing so have found the similarities that maybe someone else with a different study discipline may not want to make the same connections. Vibratory is vibratory in my studies and lab research from a pure science point of view. This is probably why I have been asked to participate in these ventures that are in and outside of the music industries. They are all connected for me.
I'm sure Geoff over the years was joking with us about LIGO being about isolation. That's why I actually haven't had conversations with him about LIGO.
Geoff over this past few years that you have mentioned LIGO I honestly thought you were kidding. If not the case, my bad. I didn't pay much attention to you because I've always known of LIGO as a research facility that explores the fundamental interaction "gravity" among other vibratory discoveries. I would never have guessed you actually using them as your, as you like to call them, argument for isolation. This is why even this last time I needed to ask the question "did you mean LIGO".
So again I know you're trying to make a joke that I am in the isolation community some how, but as innovation moves forward we all see our most advanced research facilities around the world continue to say there is no such thing. It's all Vibratory just as we who have studied vibrations always knew it was.
As far as the weird part. It's true I have always felt it weird that HEA has used the term "isolation" when there really is no such thing in audio. As I think someone said here, everything is touching something.
"...because we already have the credibility we do."
Yes, until the moment you (unknown, not you personally by default) use the word "troll". Then it is game over for credibility in that particular discussion.
"If we were talking about cars right now we would be talking about computers keeping the performance in line yet our audio systems..."
This may be apples and oranges. If for nothing else, because of different media, forces, and what not, involved.
"It is almost physically impossible to use springs so they aren’t isolators."
At the same time, it is almost impossible to use springs so they aren’t connectors.
There’s no escaping that.
In the end, it may be about the balance of those two actions. That is where it gets tricky. Theory, experience, and a little bit of open mind is needed.
Inner tubes will definitely not get you far if they leak like mentioned in some earlier post.
"Trying to displace physics variables from this hobby is strange at best..."
This cannot be more correct.
The only practical problem is that, every now and then, someone who does have reasonable knowledge of physics comes to these threads and asks questions or provides explanations. Sadly, more often than not, such a person becomes labeled as whatever the insulting word of choice for that day is. Insults can fly from both sides (tunee or not tunee, follower or oponent of whatever trend is discussed, etc.) depending on the topic discussed.
Displacing physics (laws, variables, whatever else related to it) is at times laughable but more often a sorry example of arrogant ignorance. Unfortunately, some of the pro-physics discussions are just like that, too.
However, even if the physics is applied/explained correctly in some discussion, the fact that that the ultimate receiver is biological material with its own rules and shortcomings gets ignored. Your ears are sensitive, but not flawless. They may not pick up the differences envisioned in an Internet chat.
Yep, deciding how to chop this up into bite size posts is always an issue when the topic itself is so long winded. I always wish I was an editor and had the gift of writing compression. But after my editor passed away I realized it's either bore others to death by saying too much or not getting a chance to say it at all.
michaelgreenaudio Your components are not isolated from the fields, but a part of the fields.
You might be getting a little carried away with the Fundamental Interactions. Let’s float back down to Earth for a moment. Vibration produces forces, not fields. Seismic vibration produces forces in six (count em!) directions. This silly little inner tube thinggies I suspect you probably tried won’t get you very far. They are not effective in most of the six directions and just barely do anything at all in one direction. It’s no wonder you’re a disbeliever.
However, the springs you use ARE isolators. There’s no escaping that. It is almost physically impossible to use springs so they aren’t isolators. Hel-loo! So, while you might be an isolation denier you are, in reality, a member in good standing of the isolation club. Welcome aboard, sailor!
Remember, you want to emulate the Big Boys, LIGO, the project that observed gravity waves. And what’s the Big Boys’ motto? You know. The only good vibration is a dead vibration. The audio signal is not (rpt not) like a musical instrument. 🎻 Violins can be played at funerals, though. The funeral for the dead vibrations!
If you take two components and they measure exactly the same (say an amplifier) you should ask why they still sound different. We did this by buying the same model of components with consecutive serial numbers and were a little more than surprised at how differently they staged. It wasn't just surprising how they staged at first but how they became different sounding animals as time went on.
For example, same amp model same measurements with one broken in on panel speakers for a year and the other on dynamic speakers. At the end of the year playing both on yet a different pair of speakers the two amps sound amazingly different. Two amps starting with the same specs yet after playing different loads for a year the two amps now sounded like they were two different models altogether. Same thing happened with the same amp models being used in different parts of the world during break in. Amplifiers develop their own character of sound dependent upon how they are being used. What does this do for reviewing non-tunable components?
Trying to displace physics variables from this hobby is strange at best, we are talking about sending an alternating current through mechanical conduits in different Vibratory environments. If we were talking about cars right now we would be talking about computers keeping the performance in line yet our audio systems are supposed to play perfectly and automatically every time we put on a different recording?
I can see this mythical teaching being accepted for a year or two many decades ago during the age of paperback golden ears, when we were glued to our monthly copies hoping we were a part of innovation, but in the age of information we would have to be pretty isolated to discount the physical interactions taking place with our systems. Remove yourself from your wishful thinking just for a moment. An audio chain with all Vibratory parts and pieces staying in tune while passing the variable audio signal, while sitting on a vibrating planet revolving. To top this off, playing recordings with their own unique variables and your system having one volume control for the adjustments.
Michael, I just don't read long posts anymore. While I am not tunee material, I will say that your comment about its a shame that preamps don't having tone controls is right on. I just accepted the "its because anything in the signal path is bad" argument. Never again.
Some HEA hobbyist spend so much time defending their practices that it’s not until they get to the end of their hobby before they see what they did as being backward. They make Tuning into something difficult conceptually instead of seeing the alternative.
How many times do we hear someone say they wish they had that system they once did, or how many times do we see someone say the system they now have is the best they have ever heard and within a short amount of time we see that they are selling off and buying something new. And of course the new is better than the old until some time passes and they are back in the HEA component revolving door. It’s a weird little revolving door when you think about how this part of the hobby is so "in search of" yet rarely even lets a component work in a system. A hobby inside of another hobby.
When you buy a guitar the first thing you do is put the strings on and tune the instrument. Pretty basic procedure. The guitar will go in and out of tune often until the instrument starts to settle then tuning becomes more precise as the guitar takes on it’s vibratory self.
HEA component collectors buy products with a different mindset even though the same vibratory settling takes place with every component just like that guitar. "Well it’s electronics that’s different!" LOL, different? The fact is an electronic component takes a much longer journey to settle in vs any musical instrument. Fact is, like a guitar, components never stop maturing. Aging is part of the Fundamental Forces and gravity in particular assures us that this maturing process is always in change and never ending.
Your components are not isolated from the fields, but a part of the fields. Here’s a simple example. Ever notice how different your system sounds as we go from night to day and back to night again. Or, how different it sounds as the weather changes, or you add (turn on or off) appliances to your house. If you started taking note of how many things change the sound of your system, and trace them back to the cause and effect you would find vibratory at the root of change. Motion, time and interaction are continuums.
Costco_emoji, that seems a little bit too harsh and personal. If you can’t argue the facts without getting all hot 🥵 around the collar maybe you should drop out.
(Trying to stay calm and keep from revealing he was from the future) I’m from a town where the roads don’t end at the edge of town. It’s not like Pleasantville. There are some places that the road doesn’t go in a circle. There are some places where the road keeps going.
People may be more inclined to change their gear than their brain simply because it is easier to change an amplifier.
At the same time, I was not trying to bring the brain into this discussion (geoffkait did that). I stayed firmly planted in the vibratory realm. You might have confused us and expected different approach.
That inaccuracy out of the way, one thing I have learned over time is that every time I thought something was simple it was more likely due to my inadequate knowledge and understanding. Science of sound is anything but simple, no matter how smart or knowledgeable you, me, or the third person may be. Of course, when it comes to practical applications, you may be way more experienced, quicker, and successful than many, but, again, science behind it is not simple. Do not confuse those two.
My mentioning of the head was actually aimed at various effects it has on vibrations reaching it and effects that vibrations reaching it have on head. Aside of bony structures and soft tissues, I was, silently, focusing my thoughts on airway passages and sinuses.
That is not to say that brain is not involved in the whole story and someone may add thoughts about brain/vibration effects.
One thing I have learned about types who use word "troll" is that they resort to it when losing ground and getting frustrated with their own inability to provide logical arguments. In some way, using word "troll" catapults a person into being a troll.
Do not do it. It takes the credibility away in an instant.
Glupson, I’m glad you’re here on this thread and hope you can stay on point without straying to far into troll BaitLand. One thing I have learned about trollish types is that they seem a little bi-polar in their posting ranging from all out angry men to adding some valuable info adds to the conversations. When actually contributing I like when they are around, that’s why sometimes I respond to them and other times ignore.
Saying this, you have been a good counterbalance to the trolling on this thread. I hope you have the energy, thick skin and wisdom.
That aside, I’m also glad you have brought the brain into the thread. Do you know how many HEA audiophiles are scared to death to bring the brain and body variables into their hobby? It’s huge! HEA has pushed brands, models and price-tags for so long it has developed a big insecurity problem. In fact so big that it uses measurements over feeling, hearing, seeing and all the senses available to us.
You are also correct that these topics may be a science breeze for me and the Tunees, but that's because we have In-room tunable systems playing daily and we are right in the middle of constant variable explore mode. I don't expect that most go that deep, but it's still important for those who do go to the extremes to be here.
This thread has a long way to go (hopefully lol) and when we get into all the Vibrations you are going to be surprised (or maybe not) to find that the hobby side of this industry is made up of mostly marketing and talk without really getting to the core of audio, sound, the variables and us as listeners.
For example, do you know how many people do not know what the audio signal is and how simple of a science it is, yet how much info recordings have? Many don't know that the audio signal is a variable that can be tuned. The interest in equalization and room correction devices are starting to bring the awareness back but we are just getting started to let ourselves explore a world beyond overbuilt pricey systems that only deliver one sound, unless you change out components when you play every recording.
Vibratory, or as audionuttoo says use your own word that means vibratory, encompasses all of audio and that means there is a core to all this.
Some of your fellow members would disagree inna. According to the emails I have been getting many readers seem to think this is one of the most sensible threads on Agon of all time. Do you know how many people in HEA believe the brand and model is what makes the sound and hadn’t a clue this is all vibration?
As with other threads that get into areas of how things work let this one take wings and see how it develops. Also keep in mind, as this thread develops here there is another that covers the science over on TuneLand that links to here so people can read how the Agoners respond when they read the topics of audio. An interesting little study between fact and real time Agon reactions. I've been doing this with several of the Agon threads over the past 2 years and it's amazing how different the two universes are.
"
can I suggest amending your post to say something to the effect that the size of the brain determines what individuals hear? "
I cannot agree more. It's a well known fact that birds of prey have amazing hearing using a brain the size of a small walnut. I'm almost sure they can detect all sorts of vibratory shenanigans going on around them. Once again you've hit the nail on the head.
You are definitely right and shape of one's ears must account for something. That, along with those few things I mentioned, is almost never, if ever, mentioned here (Audiogon). In this particular thread, chatting about vibrations, controlling/affecting those parameters may yield significant change. It may not always be practical, but this is a theoretical discussion anyway.
I suspect that having chronically thickened sinus mucosa affects vibrations, and consequently perception of sound, much more than some fancy wood cable elevators or inflated hoses placed strategically under the equipment. Those effects are, in fact, widely known and accepted. Widely minus one (geoffkait).
flapjack, I actually think you might be onto something. But with one minor comment. Inasmuch as the brain 🧠 is the primary mechanism by which we hear, can I suggest amending your post to say something to the effect that the size of the brain determines what individuals hear? Look inside! 🤗
@ glupson I'm afraid you've left out a key piece of the puzzle. The size and shape of the individuals ears. Some (although not as aesthetically pleasing as others) are far more efficient at receiving the sound waves and extraneous vibrations. This could very well explain the heightened sensitivity of our two experts here. I believe this may require further study......
audionuttoo MG, I concur. I have never heard two isolated systems sound the same - only different from an non isolated system.
>>>>I’m not surprised. You know, since no two systems sound the same, isolated or non isolated. Even the same system will sound different in different rooms. Furthermore, since there is no such thing as absolute isolation, isolation systems vary quite a bit in terms of sound quality by their very nature.
Isolation is as much art as science. Results in terms of sound quality depend on many factors - Fr of the isolating system, internal damping of the iso system, damping of the top plate, method of interfacing the component to the top plate, method of interfacing the isolating system to to floor or rack, and geographical location, since seismic type vibration intensity varies from location to location.
The percentage of transmission of vibration for an iso system will obviously be lower for locations well away from cities, subways, traffic, ocean shore, and geographic areas of high microseismic activity.
No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more if you had started out with more in the beginning.
You know, brain vibrates too and sometimes not quite in a right way. This is one of the most senseless threads on Audiogon of all times. There is only one fundamental force in music. It's the emotions, stupid.
I know it may seem like a stretch, and it practically is, but when talking about vibrations and sound and regardless if you prefer them extra/modified/unadulterated, vibrations inside your head are very important part of the equation. However, they practically never get mentioned. It may be much harder to control them than placing a tube under the CD player, but maybe someone really dedicated can take them into consideration when tuning/tweaking sounds. Stick a helmet on the head (what material?), use Afrin before listening session, or something more innovative. That would be a really thorough approach to addressing vibrations. Hairstyles are another very important component of vibration management, yet they are also rarely mentioned.
As far as influence of vibrations on electrical signal in the head go, it may be much less pertinent than in other electrical applications.
michaelgreenaudio OP With electricity being such an important part of our systems lets define.
"Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and motion of matter that has a property of electric charge. In early days, electricity was considered as being not related to magnetism. Later on, many experimental results and the development of Maxwell’s equations indicated that both electricity and magnetism are from a single phenomenon: electromagnetism."
Electromagnetism is one of the Four Fundamental Interactions.
For a quick review
"Fundamental interactions, also known as fundamental forces, are the interactions in physical systems that do not appear to be reducible to more basic interactions. There are four conventionally accepted fundamental interactions—gravitational, electromagnetic, strong nuclear, and weak nuclear. Each one is understood as the dynamics of a field."
MG
>>>>>>What is that supposed to be? I suspect you were searching cyberspace for a connection between electricity and vibration. Better keep looking.
OK, Class, settle down. Put your listening ears on. This is how the big boys do it.
Sneak preview: “To operate effectively, the lengths of LIGO's arm cavities (i.e. the distance between the test masses at the ends of each arm) must not vary by more than a fraction of a picometer (one-trillionthof a meter). To hold the masses in place, we need to push on them–but very carefully, and we use the reaction chain (see figure above) for that. Simple motors made of permanent magnets and electrical coils push on the upper masses; these 'voice coils' work like audio loudspeakers, with the coil producing a magnetic field which attracts or repels the magnets. On the test masses themselves, we use more gentle electrostatic forces, like that which attracts a balloon rubbed on a sweater to a wall (or hair to a comb on a dry day). The goal is to keep our hands off the masses as much as possible so they will move only due to gravitational waves.”
With everything audio being Vibratory and Interactive we can get down to business with Vibrations.
Vibratory structures are at the heart of how our systems sound. We get marketed into thinking of brands and models but when you break an audio system down to it's vibratory core many of the physical parts and pieces can actually be obstructions to allowing the audio signal to flow without contamination, resulting in distorting the signal. Keep in mind you can play part of the audio signal and it still be distortion free. That's why all of our systems sound different. Every system plays back part of the audio signal but rarely the whole signal. The conditions you need to play the whole signal is not difficult but it does require more than an audio playback system sitting in a living room.
I'll get into the tuning of the interactions but first want to say, sometimes in this hobby folks come in and give negative spins on sound, your sound. Your sound is uniquely yours and belongs to you and no one else. This hobby can get as involved as you want it to be, skies the limit (I'm not talking about money). Learning about audio is your own personal journey and as you travel it you are going to go through periods of successful listening and other times when things don't quite sound right. I don't care how much of an expert one is every recording type can offer up bliss or disaster. My goal is to help you play as much of your collection as possible, but that never means I'm telling you what you should be hearing, what you want to hear and that any of you should be listening the way I do or any of your friends here on Agon do. The fun of this hobby is that it is yours and you are the master of your own sound. That's why I do and promote the variables.
MG - I concur. I have never heard two isolated systems sound the same - only different from an non isolated system. Regarding Geoff's continuing problem with the word vibratory in this context, I offer the Merriam-Webster definition:1: consisting of, capable of, or causing vibration or oscillation2: characterized by vibrationWe all know that the pressure waves in the room coming from the speakers are a result of the amplifications of the audio signal, which oscillates over a range of frequencies and changes in amplitude. The pressure waves produce vibrations. Therefore, we are dealing with a variety of vibrations/oscillations/vibratory signals and waves. Choose the wording you prefer - it's just different ways of saying the same thing.
On this thread and others I talk about getting the sound you want as being more simple than you think. If you don't complicate or try to add to basic physics audio isn't all that hard to get right, here's why. The all of audio is tied together by interacting. If you study the fundamental interactions and apply them to audio and the different parts that make up audio you will find that they are all meant to work together. Vibratory!
Fields
Each of the known fundamental interactions can be described mathematically as a field. The gravitational force is attributed to the curvature of spacetime, described by the general theory of relativity. The other three are quantum fields, and their interactions are mediated by elementary particles described by the Standard Model of particle physics.
Sounds tough? It's not, and all you really need to know how to do is make the interactions adjustable, so they work together in tune.
With electricity being such an important part of our systems lets define.
"Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and motion of matter that has a property of electric charge. In early days, electricity was considered as being not related to magnetism. Later on, many experimental results and the development of Maxwell’s equations indicated that both electricity and magnetism are from a single phenomenon: electromagnetism."
Electromagnetism is one of the Four Fundamental Interactions.
For a quick review
"Fundamental interactions, also known as fundamental forces, are the interactions in physical systems that do not appear to be reducible to more basic interactions. There are four conventionally accepted fundamental interactions—gravitational, electromagnetic, strong nuclear, and weak nuclear. Each one is understood as the dynamics of a field."
I thought we were past audio being vibratory. Geoff if you are still not sure we appreciate your point of view and we can review but I don’t think any of us want to go in a continual circle. And I can’t image physics is in denial.
In physics, sound is a vibration that typically propagates as an audible wave of pressure, through a transmission medium such as a gas, liquid or solid.
As we covered previously Audio is Vibratory and Electricity is Vibratory. Now we have covered Sound is Vibratory.
Geoff if you disagree we are all perfectly fine with this, but lets not troll the thread. Thank you Glupson for keeping an eye on Geoff. I hope we can have fun here.
It is not fair. I used to tell you that you should get your money back from your school. Come on, no matter how good I am, think of something yourself.
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