derekw_hawaii
Fascinatiing theortical discussion. But can any of the posters share some of their personal real world diy tweaks, like the 3/24 post superball suggestion, that we normal people can apply in our systems? Gracias, in advance. Here are a few, in no particular order. Impress your friends! 1. Wrap the bottom of all house exterior drainpipes with a single 12” black cable tie. Don’t over-tighten. 2. Remove all telephone books from the building. 3. Remove all cell phones from the building. 4. If you store your LPs and/or CDs horizontally put them all in the vertical position. |
The Hubble Space Telescope (launched almost 30 years ago) has a pointing stability of 0.007 arcsec. Post repair. Ha ha. The James Webb Space Telescope which replaces the Hubble has a pointing stability of nearly twice Hubble’s. 0.004 arcsec. Since onboard motors and other sources of vibration reduce resolution of the Space Telescope’s optics great efforts are made to isolation vibration on board. You could say the vibration isolation on the Space Telescope is analogous to vibration isolation for a CD player since optics are involved in both cases.
CD players provide a tiny spring system for the laser assembly, which allows the laser freedom of motion during servo movements and also provides some degree of isolation to the laser assembly, since very low frequency vibration would obviously be unwanted, what with the nanoscale data spiral on the CD and the nanoscale laser beam width. This is precisely why CD players benefit from competent, I.e., very low Fr, vibration isolation. The tiny spring system that supports the laser assembly is tuned to too high an Fr to prevent extremely low seismic type vibrations from degrading the laser read operation.
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Referring to it as an observatory kind of demonstrates you got what the acronym LIGO stands for and that’s about as far as you got. Oh, well, as Randall McMurphy in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest tells the other inmates distainfully after failing miserably to lift the 300 lb water fountain, “At least I tried!”
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I’m hurt. I’ve been talking about LIGO with you for the last four years. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. Hel-loo!
So, how does it feel being part of the isolation community? It must be weird.
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michaelgreenaudio
Your components are not isolated from the fields, but a part of the fields.
You might be getting a little carried away with the Fundamental Interactions. Let’s float back down to Earth for a moment. Vibration produces forces, not fields. Seismic vibration produces forces in six (count em!) directions. This silly little inner tube thinggies I suspect you probably tried won’t get you very far. They are not effective in most of the six directions and just barely do anything at all in one direction. It’s no wonder you’re a disbeliever.
However, the springs you use ARE isolators. There’s no escaping that. It is almost physically impossible to use springs so they aren’t isolators. Hel-loo! So, while you might be an isolation denier you are, in reality, a member in good standing of the isolation club. Welcome aboard, sailor!
Remember, you want to emulate the Big Boys, LIGO, the project that observed gravity waves. And what’s the Big Boys’ motto? You know. The only good vibration is a dead vibration. The audio signal is not (rpt not) like a musical instrument. 🎻 Violins can be played at funerals, though. The funeral for the dead vibrations!
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Costco_emoji, that seems a little bit too harsh and personal. If you can’t argue the facts without getting all hot 🥵 around the collar maybe you should drop out. |
What’s outside Pleasantville? (Trying to stay calm and keep from revealing he was from the future) I’m from a town where the roads don’t end at the edge of town. It’s not like Pleasantville. There are some places that the road doesn’t go in a circle. There are some places where the road keeps going. Keeps going? Yeah, it all just keeps going. |
flapjack, I actually think you might be onto something. But with one minor comment. Inasmuch as the brain 🧠 is the primary mechanism by which we hear, can I suggest amending your post to say something to the effect that the size of the brain determines what individuals hear? Look inside! 🤗
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audionuttoo
MG, I concur. I have never heard two isolated systems sound the same - only different from an non isolated system.
>>>>I’m not surprised. You know, since no two systems sound the same, isolated or non isolated. Even the same system will sound different in different rooms. Furthermore, since there is no such thing as absolute isolation, isolation systems vary quite a bit in terms of sound quality by their very nature.
Isolation is as much art as science. Results in terms of sound quality depend on many factors - Fr of the isolating system, internal damping of the iso system, damping of the top plate, method of interfacing the component to the top plate, method of interfacing the isolating system to to floor or rack, and geographical location, since seismic type vibration intensity varies from location to location.
The percentage of transmission of vibration for an iso system will obviously be lower for locations well away from cities, subways, traffic, ocean shore, and geographic areas of high microseismic activity.
No matter how much you have in the end you would have had even more if you had started out with more in the beginning.
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Glubson, you realize there’s a very thin line between being stupid and pretending to be stupid, don’t you?
To all
pop quiz: in order for something to vibrate does it need to have mass? |
Speaking of definitions, fool’s par·a·dis noun: - a state of happiness based on a person’s not knowing about or denying the existence of potential trouble.
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michaelgreenaudio OP
With electricity being such an important part of our systems lets define. "Electricity is the set of physical phenomena associated with the presence and motion of matter that has a property of electric charge. In early days, electricity was considered as being not related to magnetism. Later on, many experimental results and the development of Maxwell’s equations indicated that both electricity and magnetism are from a single phenomenon: electromagnetism." Electromagnetism is one of the Four Fundamental Interactions. For a quick review "Fundamental interactions, also known as fundamental forces, are the interactions in physical systems that do not appear to be reducible to more basic interactions. There are four conventionally accepted fundamental interactions—gravitational, electromagnetic, strong nuclear, and weak nuclear. Each one is understood as the dynamics of a field." MG >>>>>>What is that supposed to be? I suspect you were searching cyberspace for a connection between electricity and vibration. Better keep looking. |
OK, Class, settle down. Put your listening ears on. This is how the big boys do it. Sneak preview: “To operate effectively, the lengths of LIGO's arm cavities (i.e. the distance between the test masses at the ends of each arm) must not vary by more than a fraction of a picometer (one- trillionth of a meter). To hold the masses in place, we need to push on them–but very carefully, and we use the reaction chain (see figure above) for that. Simple motors made of permanent magnets and electrical coils push on the upper masses; these 'voice coils' work like audio loudspeakers, with the coil producing a magnetic field which attracts or repels the magnets. On the test masses themselves, we use more gentle electrostatic forces, like that which attracts a balloon rubbed on a sweater to a wall (or hair to a comb on a dry day). The goal is to keep our hands off the masses as much as possible so they will move only due to gravitational waves.” The entire article, https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/vibration-isolation |
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Extremely lame. No offense. Breakdown of the education system, obviously |
One must differentiate between the acoustic waves in the room or the sound of acoustic instruments 🎻 and the audio signal in wires. So far I’m sensing a lot of denial. God gave you one mouth and two ears for a reason. 😳 😳 😳
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glupson1,860 posts03-27-2019 9:57pm"...air leaks out through the rubber fabric, just like it does in bicycles." The valve may be much more important leak in a bicycle. Now back to audio vibrations.
>>>>>>When you don’t know, guess. That’s your strategy? |
I’m curious what you don’t understand about what I’ve said. Say, aren’t you the guy that can’t spell the word totally?
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chazro580 posts03-27-2019 3:24pmGeoff - Earlier you stated how you were an early customer of Michael’s. It seems like you’re no longer a believer (a tunee!?) and I’m wondering what happened? Did you initially hear the benefits, or were they never there? I’d really like to hear the story. >>>>>There is no story. Nothing happened. It doesn’t mean anything. Don’t be such a drama queen. |
This is becoming quite an excellent example of the Brer Rabbit and Tar Baby routine. But I can’t figure out if you’re the Tar Baby or Mr. Fox. 🦊
Just to be clear, I never said audio is not vibratory and I never said audio is not vibration. You are putting words in my mouth. This was bound to happen when you don’t define your terms. As Dylan says, words have different meaning to different people. If I say the word house we all have a different picture of what a house is. If isolation was not real as you seem to believe then LIGO would never have been able to detect and observe gravity waves. Just like the optics in LIGO the optical system must be isolated and protected from vibration that would interfere with the observation of gravity waves the optical system in CD players must be protected from vibration, especially the very low frequency seismic type vibration, otherwise the CD player will not sound as good as it could. The same logic applies to turntables since very low frequencies excite the circa 10 Hz Fn of the tonearm and cartridge.
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I must be psychic. I knew you were going to say that. Sha-zam! |
Glubson was obviously talking about acoustic waves in the room. Glubson has this knack for stating the obvious.
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I’m not saying they can’t be in the same camp sometimes. I’m saying they are not the same thing. Their technical meaning is different. It’s like a Venn diagram. Sometimes they overlap. But this is not the real question anyway. The real question is whether vibration can interfere with the audio signal. I’m sure you agree. The oscillation/vibration issue is kind of a red herring.
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I never said isolation was absolute. Where do you come up with this stuff? It sounds eerily like Star Sound. 🤡 all these words you’re throwing around have different meanings to different people. So discussions can get bogged down rapidly. When you assume something it makes a fool out of me and Uma Thurman. |
“Oscillation” not equal “vibration.” You need to define your terms. Words mean different things to different people. - Bob Dylan
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I answered your second question regarding whether I believe the audio signal is vibratory several different times. As I also stated earlier you must define your terms before any discussion can occur. Terms such as vibration, oscillation, audio signal. Otherwise, what’s the point?
As for your question regarding air bladders/tubes/springs and load I answered that specific question earlier today around sevenish. |
Michael, let me draw your attention to my posts earlier today in response to the same and related questions.
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Most audiophiles have a thermostat. Besides, unless there are very big swings in temperature it’s not really an issue. The same applies to the speed of sound in air. Maybe Superman would worry about it in his Fortress of Solitude. But not the average audio dude. Not an issue audiophiles should worry about. If that’s your best argument against isolation it’s not very convincing. It doesn’t make sense and if it doesn’t make sense it’s not true. You cannot fool a thermodynamicist! |
Addendum: one big issue for inner tubes and air bladders in general is that air leaks out through the rubber fabric, just like it does in bicycles. To maintain proper isolation (design height/stiffness) one must pump up the %@&$% inner tube every other day. That’s one reason why I eventually went to mechanical springs.
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Great question. The ideal internal pressure depends on several factors - the size of the tube or bladder, the number of bladders and the total weight. Design height is the technical term for an airspring height where max isolation is achieved. Design height is a function of air pressure for a given load. However, in terms of sound quality the height and internal pressure can vary. I find a stiffer air tube or bladder or airspring is better than a floppy one. So, the objective is not to have the component “floating on air” as it were but to achieve an optimum mass-on-spring effect, which usually means stiffness is desired. A resonant frequency of 2 to 3 Hz would be a good target. Having said that my guess at inner tube pressure could have been too high, it depends on load. If the load is relatively low then the internal pressure could be low and achieve proper stiffness.
You can measure the Fr by bouncing the component up and down on the air tube and timing the cycles per second. But because there are a lot of variables involved, including how the component is mounted on the air tube, how the air tube itself is mounted, where it’s mounted, etc.
Furthermore, an inner tube is not an ideal geometry. An ideal geometry is low surface area on top and large volume. A long vertical tube would be ideal in terms of geometry but would be very difficult to work with because it would be very floppy. My original Nimbus Platform used a single air spring, which is relatively floppy so the design needed a secondary horizontal sprung system to build up lateral support. The Nimbus airspring was fitted with a large auxiliary air canister to provide a high effective internal volume of the airspring.
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You’re close. Very close. The audio signal in wires in an AC circuit is actually alternating, not (rpt not) oscillating or vibrating. You must have not gotten the memo regarding acoustic feedback to believe that isolation of speakers and components is of the utmost importance. I.e., the audio signal doesn’t like vibration. They clash. In fact that’s why the natural frequency of tonearms and cartridges are designed to be much lower than the lowest frequency almost all speakers are capable of producing. Perhaps you could be open to the possibility you’ve been following the wrong, you know....
🐑 🐑 🐑 |
Somebody’s auto spell check is tottaly broke. 😬
Check out The Beastie Boys’ Licensed to Ill. Fuggeddaboudit! You got to fight for your right to party! 🕺🏻 |
Damage Control! Damage Control! 😬
By the way, yes, I can believe it’s been 30 years as I was one of the first customers of Corner Tunes, Echo Tunes and those super cool looking brass cones. |
michaelgreenaudio OP728 posts03-25-2019 2:02pm "Michael, and how exactly does that information help your argument?" Sometimes I copy and paste things directly from the text books so I can avoid any arguments like I did in this case. If someone wants to argue it’s not with me. I find physics to be pretty simple stuff, well documented and easy to demo. I see HEA many times trying to reinvent the wheel, but that just leads to heated discussions and I’d rather be listening to music. >>>>>Well, you started the thread. Define vibration. Define audio signal. Otherwise you’re the troll. And you’re the one who asked to keep trolling to a minimum, remember? Don’t be alarmed by the word argument. It’s not supposed to be a threatening word. Well, not usually, anyway. If you find physics to be pretty simple stuff then you are one of the very few. I think it was Feynman who said, if you think you understand electricity you probably don’t. |
Michael, and how exactly does that information help your argument? You need to take it to the next level. It’s akin to claiming the sky is blue. It’s a truism.
For those who aren’t convinced by or don’t care about the physics all you really need to do is try isolating something. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. |
Whoa! What! When did I break away from the four fundamental interactions? Them’s fighting words! I embrace the four fundamental interactions. Let me ask you a question or two. Which fundamental interaction is seismic vibration? How about acoustic wave vibration? What about vibration induced by CD vibration or vibration of the CD transport motor? Why are you ignoring those fundamental interactions? More to the point, why do you think the audio signal in wire is immune from those fundamental interactions? Why do you think you are not subject to the same laws of physics as everyone else?
Next up, which fundamental interaction does the audio signal in wires and cable fall into? What about current?
Also next up, can one fundamental interaction affect another fundamental interaction?
Also next up, the difference in physics between a variable and a constant. |
It all hinges on how one defines the word vibration. And on how one defines the audio signal. So, unless everyone agrees on terms, which I actually don’t see happening, it will always be a Tijuana stand-off. One way to figure out if vibration isolation is real is to isolate a component and see if it improves the sound. You don’t have to be a rocket scientist. 🚀
There are many inexpensive ways to isolate a CD player, preamp or amplifier. Here are a few.
1. 3 Super Balls (1”) in short glass candle holders with inside diameter 1 1/2”
2. Suspension using bungee cords
3. Compression springs of the correct stiffness and geometry
4. Very small bicycle inner tube, inflate to 15-30 psi depending on weight of component, not too stiff, not too floppy |
I only ask good questions. Let’s see if someone gets the right answer. 😛
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Of course, the $64K question is whether the audio signal in electronics is vibratory. Everybody and his brother agrees the acoustic waves in the room produced by the speakers are vibratory.
The reason that’s the $64K question for those who haven’t had their pick me up this afternoon, is because of the whole argument as to whether it’s better to let vibrations run free in the system or to isolate electronics from them. Talk amongst yourselves. Smoke if ya got em.
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