Alon, that's a great recommendation for the Bronze and confirms what I'd imagined. The Replicant 100 stylus, of which I'm a big fan, on an aluminum cantilever suggests exactly what you describe--great detail combined with lots of body and tonal richness. Cool that Kevin is on to it. Thanks!
Bill |
Bill,
You are certainly inspiring, but I think I'll hold off on contacting Mr. Percy... that sounds dangerous!
I am very fussy about cartridges. The Ortofon Cadenza Bronze thoroughly exceeded my expectations and compels me to say that it does not belong in the $2000 price point, but much higher. It is silky smooth, rich and meaty with micro detail to die for. It creates a believable deep and wide soundstage and has what I love the most... a lot of Slam! I could go on and on... When I play my original early 70's pressing of Jeff Beck's Wired LP (esp. the cut Goodbye Pork Pie Hat) it practically knocks me off my seat, without being at all too forward or aggressive. It has replaced my previously favorite cart of all time, the Carnegie One by Madrigal as my reference.
It did need to break in for about 90 hours, but when it reached its potential it was breathtaking! I believe it to be one of the best MC bargains out there.
And you know who gets the credit for introducing me to the Bronze? None other than Kevin himself! Really, who would know better?
Alón |
I recommend calling VAC to find out about the differences between the RenIII and SigIIa phono stages. I might be wrong, but I think the line stages themselves are pretty different, with the SigIIa being lower gain. Another question for VAC.
And as I said above, I find the phono in my Phi Beta, which is the SigIIa circuit, to easily compete with my Manley Steelhead II. Don't know about the Pass. I did audition the Allnic at home a few years ago, although my system was quite different then, and I passed on it. I found it extremely liquid but ultimately somewhat colored and it hummed like mad. I preferred the Steelhead anyway. YMMV. |
To those of you who have experience with VAC phono stage and comparing it to others: I am considering moving to a VAC preamp with phono, and I am looking for some kind of gauge as to how good the phono is. Are the phono stages the same in VAC's Renaissance III and Signature IIa? Most of the comments above compare the VAC phono with units around $4K, which seems reasonable from a comparative pricing perspective. But I had come to think that the benefits of using the on-board phono in the Signature IIa placed its competitors in a more expensive category (like Allnic H3000 or Pass XP-25)? I would appreciate any comments. I received a recent suggestion to consider the Renaissance pre without phono and using a separate phono preamp. The idea was that the Renaissance is 90% as good as the Signature IIa, and an improved separate phono would more than offset the 10% differential in preamps, while not breaking the bank in the process. |
I was not doing my own thing at Newport last year, but assisting Concert Fidelity. This year I will be exhibiting with Fritz Speakers and WyWires. As I indicated we plan on using the Zesto again. We'll be using a Concert Fidelity refurbished Denon DP-3000 with Denon arm and B&O MMC-2 cartridge for the rest of the analog set up. By all means look us up and stop in for a listen. |
Loading varies with the phono stage, the overall system, and one's taste, of course. And like anything in vinyl, it can always be optimized by fine changes, IMO. Whether one really needs to is another question. Playing with this VAC, I find changes of 15 ohms to make worthwhile differences so I've blown a load of cash on Vishays from Michael Percy, mainly because it's so easy to experiment. but I could have gotten by with fewer options.
I'd guess your Ortofon would be quite happy at 100 ohms. Would it be happier at 125? Maybe but it might very well not matter. I have two Ortofons and I like them both at 25 x DCR.
BTW, how do you like the Bronze? I've been interested in that cartridge--seems like it would be very meaty and musical with good detail.
VAC did the mod. It was Brent's clever idea and he did a beautiful job. Resistor value x 10 gives me loading value, so it's a breeze.
Best,
Bill
|
Clio,
Thanks for your impressions on the Fosgate and the Hagerman Trumpet. I believe I'm leaning toward the Zesto because it's the only one I have heard. I love its rich, full-bodied and warm presentation with a surprising ability to find low level detail.
What room did you run in Newport? I'll probably be there this year... Might be my best bet in hearing both the Herron and Zesto. |
Wrm57,
My medium output MC (0.4MV) cartridge (Ortofon Cadenza Bronze) has what seems like a pretty wide load impedance range of 50-200 Ohm. Do you think that within that range there is a sweet spot that can only be discovered by tweaking? I understand that this is more an issue for MM carts, but would getting a phono stage with adjustable load settings be a benefit for my MC and therefore part of this discussion?
Did you mod the VAC stage yourself? |
As Clio09 said, the K&K Maxxed Out is terrific, especially at its price point. I owned one before I got the Manley. It's a little leaner but does everything well and is very flexible. Kevin Carter is a prince. The Zesto is also supposed to be excellent if a little richer sounding--probably closer to the VAC sound than the Manley. You have some great choices in the $2-3K range.
I should probably add that my VAC phono is different than stock because it has interior screw terminals that allow me to slide in resistors of any value (I use nude Vishays) to fine-tune loading. So cartridges that have odd loading requirements sound better into it than the Manley, which is versatile but limited in loading choices. |
Alonksi,
I've come to prefer the VAC phono but it's really a matter of splitting hairs and I wouldn't say the VAC is "better" than the Manley. In some ways, like dynamics, the Manley brings more. The VAC is a little more organic. Different presentations, different tubes. So I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the Chinook. I haven't heard it but reliable ears tell me it's remarkably close to the Steelhead, which means it must be very good. And the price is sweet. |
We used the Zesto phonostage in our room at THE SHOW Las Vegas this year and will most likely have it in Newport. I think if you are looking for an external phonostage and the price is in your budget, this one has to be on your audition list. It is an outstanding unit and while I did not do a side by side comparison, I certainly preferred it over the Fosgate. Then again, in a side by side comparison the Fosgate was inferior to a newly designed Music Reference phonostage.
If that Hagerman Trumpet is still advertised on here you might want to take a look at it. A real giant killer. Also, another of my favorite phonostages is the one from K&K Audio.
All that being said, if the internal VAC phonostages are that good, why complicate things with another box and set of cables? |
Music Direct has 30 day return - do they carry either? Of the two the Herron is dead quiet. |
Wrm57,
I've already decided not to wait for VAC's pricey phono stage.
Thanks for sharing your preference of VAC over the Steelhead in your system, that seems significant to me, as the Steelhead usually gets very high marks. Since the new Chinook is based on the same circuitry, I can deduce that in your system, the Chinook would not stand a chance.
Silly to make decisions this way, but I need to arrive at a short list so I don't drive myself and dealers crazy. If I could only find a local source to audition the Zesto and Herron and (dare I dream?) the Fosgate... Doing this by UPS is a lot of work and I would need to cover return shipping. |
Salectric,
Impressive DIY project. I was thinking at one point to buy an Audio Note phono stage "kit" and put it together myself... but I got over it. I just don't think that's my thing. |
Hello J from Audiorevelation,
Kevin never seems to be in a hurry. His built-in phono stages are so good that his outboard has to be a game changer. I wouldn't be surprised if he's been quietly experimenting for years.
What is your opinion J? Is the Zesto better than VAC's built-in? I assume you've AB'd them at your store... Have you compared any other phono stage with the VAC? |
Alonski, Yes I built my phono stage. You can read some of the details on my system page. I am not aware of a commercial product very similar to it, but there could be. Many mfrs use the 12AX7 because it is readily available and it is certainly capable of decent sound. However, when you want the best sound and the quietest noise level, you have to look beyond the 12AX7. |
Hi,
As a VAC and Zesto dealer who works with people all over the country I don't understand why you can't demo the Zesto in your own home. We certainly can arrange it if the situation makes sense.
Kevin has been threatening a phono stage for at least the 5 years I've been a dealer. I pushed like crazy for it for a good two years and eventually gave up.
J |
Podeschi,
Yeah, the Fosgate is also on my list. Very cool looking, like the Zesto. That unit uses half of each tube for each channel, right?
Good to hear (so to speak) that the Herron is dead quiet. I believe that the lower the noise floor, the better the unit will retrieve and present what's in the grooves! Thanks for your input.
Salectric,
Did you build your phono stage or buy one? Seems that many manufacturers use 12AX7s in thier units. Is noise inherent in the design in your opinion?
NeedFreeStuff,
I've heard good things about the BAT. I'm purely single ended right now, and I'm a sucker for a lush, gorgeous midrange, which I experienced with the Zesto. Glad you're enjoying your new upgrade. Just don't tell me you got it Free! |
From what Brent at VAC told me, their stand-alone phonostage will be a two-box, four-input affair retailing for around the price of a current Sig mk IIa preamp without the phono option, so it'll be pricey. It will integrate into the Sig mk IIa as a three-box preamp with the PS driving both linestage and phonostage. Target date is maybe next summer but that could easily change and probably will. I have a MC/MC phono in my Phi Beta preamp and it is wonderful. I've come to prefer it to my Steelhead II. The new VAC phono is supposed to be essentially the same circuit. |
I am using the Aesthetix Io Sig. with dual mono power supplies. These are fantastic, but are not cheap. |
Alonski,
Those two are true gentlemen. I am grateful that we have hi end brands in the US led by amazing audio entrepranuers who are also first class people. The VAC phono is first rate and in my system it easily beat 1-2k phono stages (eg, Simaudio lp5.3, psaudio gcph, etc). But the Herron is in a different league (to my ears). The Herron has NO noise (quieter than SS phono pres i tried) and its timing and transparency are superb. One unit i was very impressed with was the Fosgate Signature phono. A little tube noise but worth it for the beautiful sound. My cartridge was a liitle too low mc so Herron sounded better with it (benz lp-s). |
Kevin told me at the 2011 RMAF that he was working on an all-out outboard phono. It didn't sound like it was going to be released in the very near future, but if you are patient that might be worth waiting for.
I take exception to Mulveling's comment that "you're going to experience at least a bit of hiss with any tube MC phono stage, even with a step-up." My own tube phono which uses a stepup feeding a D3a pentode and 5687 phono preamp is a very quiet phono preamp, considerably more so than the 5 or so solid state MC phonos I've tried. It all depends on the design and type of tube. You're not going to get that kind of black background with a 12AX7 for instance. |
Podeschi,
I spoke with Keith and he actually wrote to Kevin to make sure the VTPH2 would be a good fit for my pre and cartridge! And Kevin wrote him back saying it would be great. Are these guys amazing, or what? True gentlemen (and geniuses).
Mulveling,
I know what you mean about making it a worthwhile upgrade. I figure with power cord, IC and the unit itself, I'm looking at over $5000 (with no way to sell what I'm replacing since it's built-in). Not a decision I will make lightly!
I spoke with someone (I'll keep their name to myself as a courtesy) at the VACtory who hinted that they are working on an outboard phono stage, but that it won't be coming out anytime soon and it'll probably cost around $12,000. No doubt it will be world class.
These new kids on the block, Zesto, which I heard at the California Audio Show, and it was superb... and the Manley Chinook, seem like viable options, but until I hear them in my system, it's hard to know if they can beat my current VAC sound by a wide enough margin to make it worthwhile.
Looking forward to more opinions and experiences from VAC owners. |
VAC makes sweet sounding gear.
I'll probably be in a similar situation in the future. I've got the three 12AX7 + transformer MC phono in my VAC Renaissance III - it's an awesome phono stage; a solid link in my system right now. I think you're going to experience at least a bit of hiss with any tube MC phono stage, even with a step-up. Better tubes can help; obviously phono tubes must be critically selected.
In my system I'd used Sonic Frontiers Phono 1, Benz PP-1, PS Audio GCPH, and Rogue Stealth & Ares. Nice stages all, but the VAC's stage beats most of them handily, with the only real competition coming from the Ares after heavy tube rolling; the VAC sounded great with just its stock cheapo (but presumably well selected) chinese tubes. Gut feeling is that I'll certainly have to go beyond a $2K retail to match or possibly eclipse the VAC's phono, and perhaps a good bit further to make it worthwhile.
Wish they'd make their own outboard stage. That might be fun. |
Recently purchased a bat vkp10se without the superpak option but it does have the lundahl transformers. Running all balanced connections. If your into jazz or female vocals this unit has a magical midrange. Good luck. |
I have the Herron VTPH 2 and it outperforms the built in phono stage in my VAC Ren Mk III pre. Lower noise, better resolving and transparency etc. i had tube rush and noise in vac phono and a new tube fixed it so you should try that for sure. While the phono section was beat by the Herron i have yet to hear a linestage better than what VAC makes. It competes and beats preamps i have heard at twice the price. And Kevin and crew give best customer service you could hope for (as does Keith Herron who is as incredible as his products) . |
