I vote that we honor Bill (Wrm57) with an Audiophile Eloquence Award for perfectly and concisely describing what we all love about our VAC gear. It just doesn't get better than "illuminating music from within." I'm going to send that over to Kevin and suggest he uses it as a tagline!
So, Bill... thanks for the explanation about what "direct to amps" really means. It seems clear and obvious (well, now) that "direct" is not possible because with any outboard or built in phono stage, one would need a volume control and additional circuitry to control the downstream amp, in essence, you need a line stage for this to work whether it's part of the Steelhead or VAC is irrelevant. Did I understand you correctly (please correct me if I haven't)?
So, I'll risk continuing (if I misunderstood, my foot's already in my mouth, a little deeper won't be too bad): Since this would be exactly like getting ANY outboard phono stage and utilizing my current line stage, I can go back to my original focus on simple phono stages like the Zesto, Herron and Chinook, hook the winner up to my beloved VAC's line stage, and I'm good to go! |
03-25-12: Alonski
It seems clear and obvious (well, now) that "direct" is not possible because with any outboard or built in phono stage, one would need a volume control and additional circuitry to control the downstream amp, in essence, you need a line stage for this to work whether it's part of the Steelhead or VAC is irrelevant. FWIW, and I have no familiarity with the Steelhead, my take on this is that it is not irrelevant. The functionality of a line stage is needed, somewhere, but if that functionality is implemented to a high standard within the same component that provides the phono stage functionality, investment of a given number of $ can potentially provide better results, since those $ are only paying for one component instead of two (plus an extra pair of interconnect cables). Also, while a pure phono stage (lacking line stage functionality) will not incorporate a volume control mechanism, it still has to include circuitry to drive the line stage and the interconnect cable between the two components. The requirements for that circuitry will not differ greatly, if at all, from the circuitry that would be required to drive the power amp, and the corresponding interconnect cable. So the two-box approach means having an additional buffer/driver stage in the signal path, compared to the one-box approach. Obviously, those potential advantages of the one-box approach may or may not be realized depending on the specific components that are involved, system synergy, listener preferences, etc. In your particular case, my feeling is that what you previously proposed is likely to be well worth exploring: Replacing an amazing preamp that has a really good built-in phono stage, with an OUTSTANDING phono stage that allows me to go direct to my VAC amp for best LP sound (which is what I care about most) and would accommodate my CD player with what would probably be a very decent line stage input. So in essence, it's a preamp with its main focus on vinyl.
One more benefit to this is that I could sell my VAC pre to offset some of the cost of the new phono stage. Best regards, -- Al |
Alon,
Thanks for the compliment. I was mainly just talking about the differences between running the Steelhead as a preamp vs. through my preamp. The latter sounds better, and my post tried to speculate as to why. I didn't mean to generalize beyond the two components. It may well be that some other phono stage (e.g. an IO Signature, as Jwm recommends) with a volume control would be much better than the Steelhead direct, or the Steelhead through VAC preamp, for that matter. No reason why it couldn't be, as Al says.
Bill |
Bill,
No worries, your post was very helpful to me, even if I extrapolated your explanation a bit beyond your intention. Of course, a 5-figure phono stage could very well be better, but it would still need a line stage, volume control etc. for it to work. So going direct is not really so direct. Either way, whether I consider a pure phono stage or one that has volume control, it's going to be the quality of the design and circuitry and its interaction with my system that will make the difference. That's what clicked when I read your post, so thank you for that.
Al,
Thank you as well for reinforcing that I'm at least asking the right questions in my exploration. I have thought much on the 2 Box vs. 1 Box issue (especially since room on my rack is limited), and if I could do it without the need for a very high WAF, I'd probably just upgrade my VAC Standard LE preamp to the Signature Mk IIa, which I'm sure sports a much better phono stage! But, as crazy as we are in this hobby, I love my wife more than I love new gear.
Cheers,
Alon |
Upgrade to better vac preamp with phono built in is the route i would go too |
OK, I'm intrigued. I took Jfrech's advice and did some research on SUTs. I read about the EAR, Audionote, Ortofon, Bob's Devices, and K&K. This is a whole new animal.
There's some intimation that SUTs work best with tube MM phono stages, which leads me to the question:
Do any VAC preamp owners on this thread have experience replacing the built-in MC phono stage with an SUT?
Great, I just added another month to my research timeline... glad I love this stuff. |
Might also check out the E.A.R. MC4, this is the one I am demo'ing right now and will likely purchase...I'm sincerely impressed.
Here is another opinion: http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=197:ear-mc-4-step-up-transformer&catid=37:full-length-reviews&Itemid=2
I wish I could help you better how it works with your VAC...works great with my Nagra ;-) |
Hi. You dont replace your mc stage with a SUT you run the SUT into the MM input. Best strategy is to get a SUT that is known to work well with your exact cartridge parameters. Vac can change a mc input to a mm. |
Jfrech, I've got you to thank for opening this can of new possibilities... I just read the Art Dudley piece on the EAR MC4 and now I've got to hear it in my system. If it matches my cart and system well and can beat the VAC built in MC, I'd say it would be a simple and relatively inexpensive upgrade.
Podeschi, I've been keeping an eye out for a VAC Ren or Sig, but they rarely show up here. My first choice is to stay with VAC if I can. |
Gentlemen,
I promised to follow up on my progress, so here's an update on the new twist in the road, SUTs. Thanks again to Jfrech for suggesting this alternative to an outboard Phono Stage.
Here's a letter I sent to Bob, of Bob's Devices, that will tell the story. Let me know if you have any questions on this development:
Hello Bob,
Thank you for the quick shipment of the 1131 Blue and the IC Cable (both of which are impressive in build-quality). As you know, my intention is to upgrade the MC phono stage in my beloved VAC Standard LE tube preamp.
I trust I didn't offend you with my skepticism as to whether this will be worth the money, since I believe my analogue set-up is pretty great sounding already. I asked how long the new SUT would take to burn in so I could make a good comparison, your instructions were clear: "If you don't hear a difference right away, just send it back to me and I'll refund your money." Fair enough.
So here's what I did the same day I received your SUT:
I prepared my system, warming up the amps for two hours, picking out tracks and sides of albums from my reference collection that I know very, very well, then playing some cuts to make sure the system was ready. As always, before any A/B comparisons, to fix in my aural memory the sound I'm starting with, I listened closely to the familiar tone, depth and speed of my system, which is my audio benchmark. And lastly, made sure I could move the new component in and out of the chain quickly and easily.
I did hear a difference right away, but I was not terribly impressed. The gain of your SUT was much higher than my preamp's built in MC stage, so I spent time equalizing the SPL for a more valid comparison, and listened again. Yes, the unit was much quieter than my VAC's built-in MC stage, which is somewhat important to me, but not worth the cost alone. Here's what I found in three hours of A/B testing:
1. The bass was definitely more pronounced, but loose and unfocused compared to my reference. On Ray Brown's solo on LA4's "Just Friends," I couldn't locate his instrument clearly in the soundstage... he was everywhere.
2. On Ennio Morricone's The Mission soundtrack, the upper mid-range sounded distorted, with some glare in the soprano choral voices. I paused here to clean the album and cartridge again because it sounded like a dirty stylus that caused some mis-tracking. I played it again... still there... took the SUT out of the chain and thankfully, I was relieved to be back to the familiar lush sound of my VAC (this amazing album is long out of print and I was concerned it was getting worn out).
3. After over two hours of A/B-ing, the little SUT did improve, but not enough to come close to my VAC. I was ready to pack it up and send it back to you, but it was getting late, so I figured I would do it in the morning and write you this letter of explanation. Before calling it quits, I decided to put on one of my favorite album sides, Dexter Gordon's Tanya from the LP "One Flight Up" on a wonderful Blue Note test pressing. OK, so something definitely happened about halfway through this remarkable 20 minute jam... It was startling. I got up to check, and yes, the SUT was in the chain and nothing had moved. I could barely believe my ears, and had to A/B this track three times to grasp the transformation.
Somehow, quite suddenly and without any really encouraging improvement that lead up to this, your SUT came to life! Everything was now better than my reference! The soundstage blew open and focused the instruments in space with so much air around them it felt like if I got too close to the tenor sax I might get sprayed with some spittle! Bass reproduction also took a quantum leap, getting richer, tighter and more musical. The mid-range glare not only disappeared, but left in its place an easy, natural sparkle that made my system without the SUT seem veiled and dull in comparison (this was hard to come to terms with since I love my VAC). I spent the next half hour doing more A/B and trying not to wake up my wife and dragging her into the listening room just so I could have someone, anyone to share this incredible experience with (would have been a serious infraction of the WAF code)!
Bob, when you said the 1131 Blue won't change much over time, you should know that least in my system, the SUT most definitely broke in very, very significantly over the course of 2-3 hours of continual use. And It's hard to imagine that it won't get even better as it ages in my analogue chain.
This test was a very moving experience of "You don't know what you don't know until you know it" when the joy of an audio upgrade reveals itself to us in one impossible musical epiphany that is so exciting, well, at least to us hopeless audiophiles (I'm certain had I interrupted my wife's beauty sleep, I would be getting that look right about now), that we want to shout "Yes! Yes! Yes!" in celebration of our obsession with sound and gear.
Anyway, it's now the morning after and I'm experimenting with albums that haven't gotten much airplay on my revealing rig, which trashes what I deemed "bad" recordings... one such album is Ekseption, the remarkable Dutch classical-jazz fusion LP from the 1970s. It has always been shrill and strident on all my previous systems. I'm listening to it as I write and I can't believe what I'm hearing. I won't bore you with audiophile expletives, just know that your humble device has put a wide smile on my face.
Thank you for helping me reclaim 100s of LPs from the "unlistenable on my system" file.
Alón |
Excellent. I just ordered the Cinemag 1131 SUT made for my Miyajima Premium Mono BE cartridge. I have Robin Wyatt's SUT which is amazing - cant wait to hear Bob's magic in my chain. I plan on buying one of his cables too. What I am finding with an SUT in the chain is a new increased body and weighty meat to the sound. Very addictive. Taking it out makes the music more lean and less involving. |
Alonski, that was my experience with my EAR MC-4 SUT. My dealer says they don't like to be moved and just need bit to settle down with signal flowing through it. I suspect it's those little wires ...
I've heard a lot about Bob's devices, I might try one soon also to compare.
PS, I bought my SUT on trail also ... :) |
Outstanding, Alon! And I must add that it's always a pleasure to read your witty posts. I take it that your preamp has both MM and LOMC phono stages. The manual seems to imply that the version of the preamp it is based on can optionally have one or the other, but not both, although it mentions the existence of an early version and a later version of the preamp. Also, I'm wondering what gain setting you are using on the transformer. As you no doubt realize, the gain of the transformer will be a key determinant of the loading seen by the cartridge. You might find this thread to be of interest. As you may realize, the load impedance that is optimal for a given cartridge can be expected to differ when a SUT is used, compared to when the cartridge is driving an active gain stage. As to why the apparent breakin phenomenon occurred, I haven't the slightest idea. My initial instinct would normally be to suspect that something unrelated was adversely affecting the sound during the first couple of hours, such as the warmup state of the equipment, or out of the ordinary AC line voltage or noise conditions. But the methodology you described would seem to have eliminated those kinds of possibilities. Best regards, -- Al |
Hey Podeschi, this little jewel box is blowing my socks off. I'm really looking forward to hearing your impressions of Bob's SUT in your system. Indeed, your description of more "meaty and weighty" music with your current SUT is valid in my experience as well. I love that this increased heft can be had without the usual compromises of darkened tonal colors and loss of inner detail. Weight, detail and sparkle coexisting in one system... ahhh, life is good! SUTs rock. |
Jfrech, I would love to do a blind A/B with the EAR and Bob's. At twice the price, I'm really curious about the MC-4.
Again, thank you so much for your original suggestion to try a SUT. I owe you one!
Alón |
Al, thanks for the kind words. Yes, my VAC has both MM and LOMC built in. I'm using the low 1:20 ratio setting, which is what Bob recommended for my cartridge. That, I believe, translates to a load impedance of 118. I also use the Ground Lift switch, that in my system makes music emerge from a background so quiet and black that the first notes out of the speakers startles the cat! Bob actually researched my cartridge, and only then made his recommendations... considering the results, it sounds like he nailed it!
As for burn-in, I've experienced improvement over time in every component in my system. I dont think this any different. The delicate silver wires Bob uses in the 1131 took under three hours to show their magic. I think the SUT will get even better in the next 100 hours. I don't have a "cable cooker," so I'll just have to play a lot more vinyl... I know, poor me! |
Alonski, I love your description - spot on, "I love that this increased heft can be had without the usual compromises of darkened tonal colors and loss of inner detail. Weight, detail and sparkle coexisting in one system..." |
Gang: I have had the Steelhead for 5-6 years, bought it new, never liked it straight in, and with the Lamm Reference line stage, it made pretty good music, using NOS Teles and rolling the 7044 tubes as well. There is a noise in my Lamm Reference, and it has to go back to Vlad (no big deal, i am still in NYC area, so it is a drive, no shipping). But since Vlad is away (Munich, i gather, not the Motherland), I'm down to the Steelhead for a month or so, straight in again, and it sounds too 'high fi' for me. So, I'm looking for something that will give me purity and openness via the Lamm ML2/Avantgarde Duo combo.
Considering, among others, the Allnic stuff, as well as Veloce line stage with ? phono.
I'm vinyl only. And i don't need a bunch of other inputs on the linestage.
Spoke to Israel at Coincident as well-
Frankly, I trust my own ears, in my own system, not the flavor of the month or technical explanations (which are fine as far as they go). My take, living with the Steelhead, it is good, and very flexible, well built, but sounds too electronic (FET's?) for my taste, and without the linestage to buffer it, literally and figuratively, it will be offered for sale soon.
What say you?
TIA. |
Alón,
Thanks for posting 1131 impressions - I surely understand your excitement (nothing better than improving a system you already love), and now you've really got me thinking about one! Geez, I guess I should also consider picking up a "beater" MC cart just for burning new phono electronics & tubes in ;)
Mike |
you either have the magic or you don't. when i bought the Herron VTPH-2 phono preamp I knew my search was over. Don't settle for "ok" |
In case anyone is still interested in the SUT audition... I've got over 25 hours on this puppy and it's rocking my world. Right now I'm listening to Shelby Lynne's tribute to Dusty Springfield and I'm lovin life. I've been thinking about how lucky we all are to be engaged in a hobby that offers endless potential to completely surprise us whether we're hearing sonic details we never knew were in the familiar grooves of our favorite performances, or hearing unfamiliar performances recomended by fellow audiophiles that render us speechless...
I had a musician friend over last night for some listening and I pulled out the big guns yes, the "Reference" LPs. While listening, he kept shaking his head in disbelief. I know that feeling, the sweet spot is deadly.
As for the upgrade, I consider this surprising outcome a complete success! At least for a while, I'm out of hardware search mode and I'm going deep into the music hunting mode.
And lastly, an admission, as required by my Audioholics Anonymous program. Here goes: just now, I've listened to side two of Shelby Lynne's album four times in a row already. I just can't help it... It just sounds so goooood. I'm not sure I can stop. My sponsor is gonna have a fit.
Wow, feels good to get that off my chest. Thanks for reading. If you have any questions, please post.
Cheers,
Alón |
I now have Bob's Devices Cinemag 1131 mono (made for Miyajima mono)
in my system. So Miyajima is going into Herron's MM inputs. Magic. Meaty,
special, musical, engaging, powerful etc. It is like putting Shindo and Linn
and ARC into a blender. Much superior than without 1131. Now i want one
for my benz lp-s. it brings weight and drama that is captivating. |
Podeschi,
Nice to have you in the "smitten-by-the-1131" club.
It's always interesting to share our impressions boldly and openly on these threads... but when your A'gon friends start spending money based on our impressions, one can certainly get a little concerned. What if they don't have the same experience? What if they hate it and resent me for being a tin-eared miscreant?
All I can say is, Alright! Glad you were impressed enough to want two of them. Loved the blender metaphor! Hey, now that there are two of us in this club, we can tell anyone that doesn't agree with us that they are obviously half-deaf cretins who don't have the sophistication to hear the magic this SUT brings! This, of course, will get them to buy it out of sheer embarrassment... Then we can hit Bob up for a commission, and also.... OK, wait, I shouldn't be posting this...
Anyone else ready to join the club? |
Right on, Alonski. I would also add to our Cinemag Infomercial I had a funky ground loop hum issue with my Miyajima setup (something about my system). The 1131 fixed that. |
An Infomercial... Now why didn't I think of that? You see, Podeschi, that's why you were elected the club's Strategic Marketing Director (in a landslide victory I should add).
I also had a ground loop issue that I never fully solved, even after I installed two 20AMP dedicated circuits!
After much posting and consultation with my electrician and the technicians at PurePower in Canada, I just kinda gave up since I was able to tame it down to a dull, background whine that didn't regularly bring me to the point of psychosis anymore.
But in the first minutes of having the CINEMAG in the chain, I tried the Ground Lift toggle, turned up the volume way past what would be ear-melting level if I had something playing and whaddaya know, quiet.
The 1131 fixed it with a simple slip of a fwitch!
I am looking forward to meeting our humble hero Bob at THE SHOW in southern California in a few weeks. Anyone else on this thread going?
Alón |
I have been following this thread with interest- since a Steelhead was mentioned earlier, and I just switched from that to the Allnic h3000. It is far too early in the process to make any concrete judgments, but the Allnic seems to sound far less compressed than the Steelhead. It does need to break-in though, which is one of the reasons for my hestitation in providing a glowing review. The other variable in my system, my line stage, is temporarily in a holding pattern- a Lamm Reference line stage, which is making all sorts of nasty noise, and obviously needs to be fixed. I substituted a Joule LA 150mkII, which, frankly, is far too lush in combination with the ML2 amps (the Joule might be the ticket for someone with big solid state amps of the analytic variety).
The other interesting thing is that the Steelhead really only sounded great through the MM inputs, rather than the step up transformers- through the transformers, it exhibited some unevenness across the spectrum. The Allnic doesn't seem to behave that way at all.
Oh, and the Allnic is pretty gorgeous, if you are a gearhead. :) |
Alonski, I bought the E.A.R. MC4 SUT I've been demo'ing today. I am sitting here spinning a few LPs and just smiling. Glad we both arrived at the same conclusion...If you're ever in Texas, let me know and stop by ! |
Jfrech! This is all your fault and I'm very grateful. The sound improvement for the reasonable price is really amazing and very rare these days.
Thanks for the invite. Likewise, if you find yourself in the San Francisco area, drop me a note and come by for a listen! |
Alonski: I bit late to this party perhaps, but thought I would share a few thoughts. Back in May, I had an opportunity to A/B my EAR 834p Deluxe with the Herron VTPH2 for a couple weeks in my system. Ultimately went with the VTPH 2, as it presented so much more of the music unveiled than the EAR, at least within my system. Forever curious, I recently had an opportunity to audition the Zesto Andros against the Herron, and presently still A/B-ing between them. Tough call here. Although the Zesto has a significantly blacker background, great timbral representation of instrumental sources, and some nice moments with transient clarity, the Herron still images and lays out the sound stage far better. It also offers a bit more upper frequency clarity, and not so much the slight warmth that the Zesto, and of course the EAR, present. Low frequencies are solid and again, true-to-source timbrally, but I find the Herron to be equally so, though I've heard others express some disappointment with the Herron's low frequency presentation. The Zesto offers a plethora of mc load adjustments, etc, on the back panel. The Herron sim. with load plugs, although I run it unloaded for my Dyn XV-1s and it seems to really sing. Lots of positive reviews out there on the Zesto, but I must say, the Herron stands toe-to-toe, IMHO. |
I agree with Mbump. I have not heard anything in my system better than the Herron VTPH-2. no upgraditis on the phono preamp front. |
Podeschi and Mbump:
I'm still waiting to hear Keith's phono stage... I've been to two big shows recently and could not find a VTPH2 anywhere. But George with his Andros was everywhere, and I really like the Zesto sound. I spent over an hour playing everything from Steely Dan to Rimski-Korsakov on his well matched system. It's good, really good. But I did something really stupid... I took up an invitation to hear the new VAC Statement 450s paired with Kevin's top preamp the Sig Mk IIa and its built in phono stage driving Magico M5s and fed by a dual platter Kronos table and some superb cartridge... Dear God was that amazing! Bob the dealer played a cut of St. James Infirmary and with my eyes closed, Satchmo came to life in the room. I can't stop thinking about that experience. No phono stage I've ever heard can resolve recorded music like that. It was kind of spooky. So since getting the top of the line VAC pre may not happen this year... it's a goal I'm keeping alive. |
Alonski, I agree with your statement made in relation to hearing the Vac pre w/phono paired up with the Vac Statement 450 mono blocks because thats been my current set-up for some time no driving my MBL 101E speakers and loven it. My table was the TW Acustic Black Knight with a Reed arm and MSL Ultra Be cart and sounds absolutely marvelous.
I have tried numerous costly external phono stages, I found my self liking this or that but upon listening back to my Vac just sounded amazing. My next phono to listen to is the Burmester 100, crazy price but ... Will see, also Kevin has been working on a Referrence phono which will be coming out soon and should be very interesting. |
Received my VAC 450S and it is incredible....as great as my VAC 300.1a was, this is better...more holographic, makes the speakers disappear even more, etc. And I have non-flagship VAC preamp (Ren Mk III) which I love. Took delivery of the Magico S5 speakers, so now I am done...if I spend money it will be on little tweaks and headphone stuff. |
Dev and Podeschi,
Congratulations on your superb choices. I covet your Statement 450s, both the stereo and the mono blocks. When it was in the VACtory, Kevin told me that I own the best Standard LE with MC he's ever heard (I'd love for him to hear the incredible improvement the outboard SUT makes), but when I can, to acquire another Phi 200. He said having two is such a quantum leap in musicality and ease. However, my local dealer Bob agreed, but said that a stereo 450 would simply blow away my two Phi 200 mono blocks. Any thoughts on this statement (so to speak)? |
Even though I am not a phono guy, I've had VAC gear for years. I believe your dealer is correct re:450s - its at a different build/sonic level than the 200's. |
Having said that, I can also agree that going from 1 to 2 200s is probably better than a doubling of goodness, judging from the improvements I got going from 1 300.1 to 2 of them. Huge difference and afterwards had a hard time believing I had been perfectly happy with just 1.
You get spoiled.... :-) |
Agree with fplanner. Two 200 amps will be a big step up and bettering amps 5X as much. I dare say the 200 amps have newer circuitry than 300.1a so two of them should outperform a 300.1a. The 450 series is in a different league tho to my ears. Kevin has outdone himself. More goodness state of the art - I was dubious spending that much money but now feel like I got a deal. And his service is second to none in my book. He hasn't lost his deep commitment to consumers like many brands do when they get arrogant or big. My 450S is my last amp ...until VAC comes out with something better! |
fPlanner: "Huge difference and afterwards had a hard time believing I had been perfectly happy with just 1" Yeah, I know that feeling. I'm leaning towards getting another Phi 200 and then, maybe, explore upgrading the Caps in my VAC preamp.
Has anyone done any Cap Rolling (is that a term or did I just coin it?) with their VAC pre? I've heard amazing stories about sound improvement by swapping stock output caps with teflon/copper V-caps... anyone with experience doing this?
Podeschi: "And his service is second to none in my book" No doubt Kevin is an audio community hero. One of the few true gentlemen I have met in the high-end world. |
I have the VAC 2a preamp which is direct coupled input to output. I don't have to worry about changing capacitors because there are no capacitors. |
Hey JWM,
OK, now you're just showing off!
Just in case you ever upgrade from your 2A (frankly, at this time I don't know what you could upgrade to), drop me a line if you'd want to part with it. I'm pretty sure it's the best preamp I've ever heard. Keep me in mind.
Cheers,
Alón |
Alon, I agree with you. I had many other preamps before. I had the CAT, First Sound, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research Ref 2 Mark 2, VTL 7.5, Reference Line. None of these could touch the VAC. My friend has the Coincident line stage that competes with mine, other than that I have not heard it yet. |
UPDATE:
Well folks, I spent a lot of time with the VAC Sig mk2a flagship preamp at two recent highend shows... and now it's the end of november and I still can't get its unbelievable sound out of my head... So today, (drum roll, please) I bought one! I spoke with Kevin and he said It'll take a few weeks to get it to me because I'm getting the optional phono stage and they're back logged with orders... But I did it! It's coming! I will finally be able to A/B my SUT with the MC phono stage in the top of the line VAC, which, did I mention, I bought earlier today!? Can you tell I'm excited?
Thank you all for your guidance, ideas and shared experiences as I explored my options. This is the most I've ever spent on a single component and somehow, I feel calm about it... I even told my wife and she was supportive and gave me a congratulatory hug! Boy, talk about a guy getting lucky... I could be the poster child for "Lucky", standing next to my awesome wife sporting that incredulous goofy grin that I've worn since the day she said "yes!"
As soon as I get this baby in my system I'll post my initial impressions. Those of you who have the Sig2a with phono, how long did it take to burn in? |
Congrads, you will love the preamp. There is a cd you can buy that will give you the right level for phono and you can break the phono stage in that way a lot quicker. I will post the name of the company. |
JWM, thanks. I look forward to getting that CD phono stage burner... That seems like a no brainier! I assume I would just have feed the cd player into the phono inputs... Does it do MM/MC at the same time, or does each stage burn in separately? |
Alón, congratulations! That is exciting indeed.
A note of caution, though. Although the chances of a problem occurring would seem to be very remote, I personally would never connect the output of a component capable of supplying upwards of 2 volts or so into the input of a component that is designed to receive and process millivolts or less. Especially one as special and as expensive as this.
Yes, the CD may be designed to cause the player to output a suitable level, but things can go wrong. The player can fail abruptly in unpredictable ways, or go berserk. AC power can drop out, or flicker off and on, causing the player to briefly do who knows what.
As I say, chances of a problem occurring are very small. But I would take NO chances with a component as special as this one.
Best regards,
-- Al |
KAB makes an inexpensive RIAA adapter that enables you to plug a CD player's output into the phono stage input to burn in the latter. I don't think it presents the same safety risk that Almarg described by using a 'burn-in' CD alone. I used the KAB device recently to burn in my new phono stage and had no issues. Almarg- think that's safer? |
Bill, that looks to me like an excellent suggestion. You appear to be referring to the "KAB PreconLP Inverse RIAA Level Converter." It appears to be a purely passive device, using resistors and capacitors to divide down the signal level and also provide inverse RIAA equalization.
The only slight caveat I see is that when inputting to the preamp's LOMC inputs I would make sure that loading is set to 100 ohms, as opposed to a value that is much higher (e.g., thousands of ohms). Apparently the device relies on that loading, in conjunction with its own output impedance, to divide down what would otherwise be MM levels to LOMC levels.
In this case, though, even that concern is pretty much eliminated by the fact that the highest value load setting that is provided on the preamp for the LOMC inputs appears to be 470 ohms. That value would still reduce what would otherwise be MM levels by a substantial amount, probably something like 10 db (about a factor of 3 in voltage) according to my calculations.
Best regards,
-- Al |
Thanks you guys! I wasn't planning to try anything without asking Kevin, but your advice has helped me be more prepared for the conversation.
I found this CD from Granite Audio and here's what they say:
Using this CD to burn-in your phono section will save needless wear on your record stylus and turntable. Standard music CD's cannot be used for this purpose because their signal level at 240mv to as much as 4 volts would overload your phono inputs, which are designed to handle only about 4mv of input signal. Also, conventional CD's would have their low frequencies boosted by 20dB more than a phonograph record that was encoded with the RIAA bass rolloff. So, playing a standard music CD through your phono input could also damage your speakers with excessive bass tones. DO NOT attempt to play any standard music CD's through your phono inputs. You can only do this with the Granite Audio Model #CD-101 Phono Burn-In CD. Our CD is the only one that has been engineered for this purpose. |
Alón, yes, that is exactly what I am recommending that you do NOT use. Everything they say in the paragraph you quoted is essentially correct, but no matter how well the CD may be engineered for the particular purpose it cannot control what the PLAYER may do in the event of malfunction, momentary AC power dropouts, etc.
I believe that the moving coil section of the preamp employs a transformer at its input, which would be designed to handle signal levels measured in microvolts (millionths of a volt), and miniscule amounts of current. Misbehavior of the player, caused by the kinds of (admittedly unlikely) events I mentioned could easily put voltages across that transformer that are a couple of thousand times or more greater than those amounts. As well as overloading and stressing circuitry in the preamp that is downstream of the transformer.
Using the KAB device Bill suggested, you would use a conventional CD of your choice, and those risks would be eliminated.
Best regards,
-- Al
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Thanks Al and Bill. Your advice and suggestions are appreciated.
If you're open to more questions (anyone jump in here), here are a few that have bubbled up through my dark grey matter in preparation for my new pre:
1. Now that I'll have both amp and preamp able to support Balanced ICs, is there any advantage to having the connection between pre and amp be balanced while all others are single ended?
2. I need to rearrange my rack. Although the Sig's power supply looks really cool with the lit up logo, shouldn't it be as far from my amp and preamp as possible, as in not in the rack? I see the pre stacked on top of the PS in photos, but I thought that was for advertising convenience...
3. Do any of you fellow nut cases cap your unused RCAs on the back of your preamps? Does it make a difference?
I can't wait to get this thing into my system! Thanks all!
Alón |
