Used vs New vs Vintage vs Floorstanding vs Bookshelf vs ..... OMG!
OK. I am new in this (new in HIFI, in Audiogon, in discussion forums). I need to buy a pair of speakers for a newly-to-be-built HIFI system, and I am getting a little overwhelmed about all the options and possibilities (and opinions). By the way, I am NOT rich so that helps me a lot to discard a bunch of options.
I started checking vintage HIFI speakers for around $500, basically old JBLs, Technics, and the like (eBay, Craiglist, Letgo). Of course as soon as I began I started checking newer and pricier loudspeakers... and I am trying not to be a consumerist… Either way first I decided for a pair of JBLs vintage. Until I watched John Darko's youtube review on the ELAC Navis ARB-51. So I changed my mind, I raised my budget and changed from vintage to new, from big to small.
Then I learned about the huge immense used HIFI market. For the same price of the Navis I could buy speakers from enormous brands like Sonus Faber and Focal and B&W in the used market. There I could find Sonus Faber Veneres for 1500, B&W 802 for 2000, and so on. When I contacted somebody from another webpage (The music room) about which was the best option.... the response was... Vandersteen 2Ce signature, "by far". I looked for opinions about it and all I read about them was "OK but meeh".
So I was really confused. Until I learnt about the Tekton Double Impact, and now I started to get some dizziness. "The best loudspeakers for that price range", "the best period", etc. I contacted Eric Alexander, who kindly took his time to explain me why paper speakers are still the best, and so on. So they are great, really great, for "just" $3000... and I raised my budget again.
Either way, I have read so much, heard so much, watched so much, and I haven't learned much really. Different experts have different opinions, whether the speakers should be flat or not, colored or true, whether it is a matter of "taste" or "you should listen and like them". Well I am no expert, I am 45 years old and I probably won't listen wavelengths of 50 Htzs or lower.
I just want a pair of good speakers so I can enjoy King Crimson, Ramones or Beethoven.
Also, if you live in a humid climate (40-50%+), I would avoid old paper coned speakers, unfortunately. They’re great when new, but awful when the coating disintegrates and local humidity has ravaged them.. adding mass to their membranes.
Carbon, Poly, and most certainly Ano’d Alu would be better as used in humid areas. The old NEAR transducers, which Lewis Athanas patented and designed (albeit finicky given no centering-spiders), were extremely robust and later used in gardens as outdoor speakers.. even somewhat exposed to hydro-misters, they can still work for many years. But yes.. buyer beware.. due diligence, etc.
Several years ago I went to a somewhat local hi-fi store that had a nice selection of vintage used speakers to upgrade my speakers. My budget was intended to be in the $800 range. I listened to a few different mid sized speakers and after so the owners said he wanted me to listen to a new at the time speaker that KEF had put out - the LS50. Compared to the vintage speakers I auditioned, they blew me away. So I upped my budget and bought those and a few months later bought a decent subwoofer. Bliss at least for me within my budget. They really are worth a listen.
Fast forward a few years and I started reading about Tekton speakers. I spoke/emailed Éric at Tekton for his opinion of his Impact Monitor and he felt the LS50s were not in the same league (despite comparable pricing). I bought the Impact Monitors fairly recently but life got in the way (I started my own business/retail store) and I haven’t had the chance to listen to them sufficiently to say wether or not they are far superior to the KEFs. I switched/added some equipment to my system (added a DAC which I am still trying to set up) and I just haven’t had time to set my system up. I can say they (the Tektons) are awesome speakers for the price and many people that have actually listened to them agree. I can say for certain that you will NOT need a subwoofer as I did with the KEFs. So this might be a speaker to consider within your budget.
So some advice new. I tend to like the idea, I would never be suspicious whether they sound as good as they should. ELAC Navis? Nobody seems to recommend these or any expensive bookshelf speakers, like Harbeth for example. I guess the public for these kind of forums are mostly for big speakers. Used speakers: I prefer this idea because I can buy better for less money. Of course the con of this is that I can get crap. Unless I buy from a serious place. What placed do you recommend? The Music Room? Here? Reverb? Also there are some B&W 802 S3, they seem fine, "new" woofers installed in B&W, $2000, what do you think? For the same price I get the Navis, new. Your thoughts? Does your preference for Floorstanding only responds to size of room and low frequencies? What do you have to say about the idea that bigger woofers give better sound than modern smaller ones? I checked some of the suggestions given above, like Zu and Ohm. Don't understand how a speaker with a single driver and tweeter can be more expensive and sound so much better than, let say, the Veneres, for a fraction of the price, more drivers, and supposedly, still good quality components. Are they really so good? I appreciate all the opinions said here. Most of you really showed the intention of helping people. It is a good place.
Re. jhw9’s comment about the stability of modern polyester film crossover capacitors…
Yes, poly-film caps are surely better than the old oil-filled crossover network caps of yesteryear—also those awful “non-polarized” electrolytic caps that proved so popular—but plain polyester film and PET-type caps are hardly optimum; polypropylene caps are preferable.
Regardless, an age-related decline in passive crossover accuracy involves more than basic network drift—it also encompasses age-related drift in loudspeaker characteristics too. There’s really a compound aging variance in effect.
Passive crossover networks are truly an archaic and imprecise means for the control of loudspeaker passbands. There are far better ways to accomplish this task today.
THE MUSIC ROOM: Pro's: They are the only used outlet that I know of that you will give you a trial period where you can listen to what you bought and then return it if you're not happy. Your only out of pocket will be the shipping costs (to & from).
Con's: Their selection of available components is nowhere near as large as what is on Audiogon.
AUDIOGON: Pro's: Obviously the large selection. Check the sellers feedback rating and transaction history before buying. I've never had a bad experience on Audiogon.
Con's: Since there is no trial period, you will have to do lots of shopping & listening to be sure of exactly what you want to buy.
Personally, I have bought much more on Audiogon; but, I would not hesitate to purchase from the Music Room. I have a friend who is in the process of purchasing his first system in 30+ years and I have urged him to use The Music Room if possible, since he plans to be used stuff.
As you are new, any system is going to be a huge improvement on what you know. I get the impression most people here are experienced and have built up their system over years. I started out with a 1000 Euro Arcam and B&W system when my mass market junk died. My dealer in Ireland with true integrity assembled a low cost system for my budget that was incredible to me as a newbie. Spend all your money now and you'll never get to appreciate an upgrade. In Ireland a large living room is your size and stand mount speakers fill it easily. Floorstanders( and I have auditioned many) do nothing extra for me. Its good to know what you want by listening but listen within your SET budget. I agree with high sensitivity spec speakers as you may go for a low watt tube amp which can't give power like solid state million watt amps. Remember when auditioning you're listening to the system. Fabulous speakers on a poor amp/system will sound poor. Good speakers on a great amp will sound good. I think you're over-analysing. Dive in at your budget. Listen to a couple of sources, a couple of speakers, a tube amp versus solid state and just go do it! Dealers will have used ex-demo items too but ask and walk away from the dealer that laughs at your budget or constantly tries to stretch it beyond affordability.
I have another question: is there really any difference between a Sony CD/Blu ray reader and an incredibly-expensive used CD reader from Audiophile brands?
Yes, the Sony won't break and if it does it can either be repaired cheaply or simply replaced.
Don't be afraid of used equipment. Just use your judgment and buy from people who have good track records (feedback). Avoid snobs and forum posts exceeding 5000 words.
Elizabeth has offered good advice about just finding something you like and not worrying about if there is something "better" out there. There is too vast an array of candidates to hear even a small fraction of what is out there. Also, in time, your own taste will change.
As to your question about floorstanders vs. bookshelf speakers, I have heard many small, compact systems that sound very good. But, none of them sound that good used as "bookshelf" speakers--they all sound better on speaker stands set off some distance from nearby walls. I've heard very expensive speakers which where put into wall units or mounted in the walls themselves, and only those specifically designed for in-wall location sounded reasonably good.
A compact, stand mounted speaker can compete soundwise with a tall floorstanding model. For example, ProAc has a floorstander DT8 which is about the same price as their small stand-mounted speaker the D2 (the D2 is a little bit less but requires a good stand so the costs are comparable). Both sound very good for the money, but, if it were my dollars being spent, I would go with the D2. The Harbeth line also offers stand-mounted speakers that sound very good. If your taste runs to warmer sounding speakers, you must make an effort to hear Audio Note compact speakers.
Oh I have another question: is there really any difference between a Sony CD/Blu ray reader and an incredibly-expensive used CD reader from Audiophile brands?
and
Don't understand how a speaker with a single driver and tweeter can be more expensive and sound so much better than, let say, the Veneres, for a fraction of the price, more drivers, and supposedly, still good quality components. Are they really so good?
Yes. And no.
Depends.
Look, a bunch of guys have been saying you need to go and listen. I'll go even further. If there is one thing you can learn that will help you more than anything else its that you have to go and listen because nobody knows.
Because if one guy knows then next thing you know the secret gets out and everyone knows. Which look around, hasn't happened. So nobody knows.
The downside of this is you can't just sit there at your keyboard and click the mouse a few times and have your dream system droned to your door. You have to go and listen. The upside is you can quit wasting your time on theory, design, materials, models, new, used, other peoples opinions, all of that. Anything and everything you think you might be interested in, the only thing you care about is finding one to listen to in person.
The big, big, BIG upside to this is by going and listening you will eventually discover there's really cheap unbelievable bargains out there. Bargains nobody here will ever tell you about because they don't even know about them. Because they can only be found by searching and finding and listening to them.
I think you should start with an easy to enjoy speaker, not necessarily a high end speaker. I use Legacy speakers in a high end system but in your smaller size room, you could be satisfied with Harbeths. They're easy to drive with amps and have great mids. Sure a Magnepan can get you more audiophile quality sound but require prodigious power or really excellent quality amps and probably is too dynamically limited for your type of music. I would definitely start with good used gear. You could run a pair of Harbeths with a low power 1970s Yamaha receiver or even for $50, a 7100 Sherwood receiver (lower power ones sound better) and get really enjoyable sound. I've set up beginners systems this way and they have many positive musically enjoyable features. Your choice of a $3,000 speaker (new) would require some nice equipment and room acoustic treatment to extract high end sound. It will cost both money and effort to achieve great sound. Start out small and improve your gear incrementally over time is my advice.
After trying the kef Ls50's and many others, I finally went back to a pair of Polk LSi9 speakers. I had them previously and they are now back on stands and sounding fantastic. One thing to keep in mind... they are rear ported so do not like being too closed in... like in a corner (port noise can occur). The LSi9 were around $1000 new and can be found, in nice condition, for around $500-$600. My audio friends and I like them better than the key LS50's! I'm a retired drummer... so pretty picky! Drumbe
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