Usb or Optical

I had no idea i could by another card and put in my computer and run the usb out of that for optimal sound, how much better will it sound with this usb card ? im guessing not $400 worth.

I searched to see what this magic card does. Not reading the entire thread But a quick scan tells tme this: there’s alot of misinformation above. Yes, USB out of any computer can be noisy. You need to isolate it. That’’s not $400. There are statements that Windows resamples and modifies the bits. Not necessarily. You need to set volume to 100% and leave it there and use the USB high res profile (driver). On MAc’s there’s a $10 app called bit perfect that is worth every lira.

I would honestly suggest that you buy some books on digital audio and learn about it before you start throwing money around. I think Hans Beekhausen ????? (impossible to spell) does a surprisingly good job in his e-book. Learn the basics. USB can carry noise int he signal and the ground. Isolate it. USB needs a good clock int he DAC - whatever jitter free signal you think you feed it is lost in the buffer. The best way is to have a source --> ethernet --> a bridge --> USB --> isolation --> DAC.

Oh, and I'll re-iterate what i said earlier - given the equipment oyu have, plug it in, make sure your source spits out bitperfect data (lots of messing around in windows, yea!), and enjoy.

Over and out

 

 

People need to keep this conversation on track. Toslink has no bearing in streaming, toslink is inferior optical connection between two digital devices, generally cd transport. This thread is steaming oriented, we're talking about network optical. Network optical does not add jitter, op has rare optical input streamer dac. If his usb sounds better its because either optical out on server inferior or optical input on streamer dac inferior or combo of both. I'd guess usb on streamer dac being superior as this technology has been around long enough so  most dac manufacturers  allocate most resources here. I've observed usb usually outperforms I2S inputs on most dacs, theoretically I2S should be superior as native protocol within dacs.

Just to throw a monkey wrench into this. Another option that hasn't been mentioned is a second ethernet port on server, this way you avoid the lousy motherboard issues with usb or optical. Simplifies network as you can do server>FMC>streamer/usb renderer or streamer dac. I use this configuration with Sonore OpticalRendu as streamer/renderer. You can also do server>whatever ethernet devices you like. This also eliminates the need for a network switch and the added cabling necessary with it.

 

When speaking of optical here, I'm not talking about Toslink.

All things considered, USB should be better. It does depend on the interfaces though. Optical has the advantage of minimal electrical noise contamination, but is, in general, much higher in jitter. I have had very good results with an MIT optical cable but for your application USB is the way i would go. As I am learning of late, jitter has a serious impact on sound quality, much more so (i would think), than ‘noise’. I’ve now heard a jitter-free signal delivered to a familiar system and the difference when clearing jitter is to me, quite remarkable. To me it would suggest that the digital reconstruction filters of average DACs / digital interfaces get the job a bit messed up. I am now a believer that clock-timing is so important for best results.

It depends on the quality of the USB controller. I've seen some devices (Raspberry Pi) where it seems to make a lot of difference. I always go optical or Spidf whenever possible. 

Im interested in the Pink Faun Card, how money we talking ?. If im going to notice it and its not to much money im game.

Well did some searching and its not cheap and seems like not a common card you could find on ebay used.  So are we talking like ohhhhh yeah i can really hear the difference ?

You may not agree, but your reply indicate you don't understand the reasoning (despite the fact that i laid it out).  USB is asynchronous. It simply reads bits into abuffer and is then reclocekd with a high quality clock. 

You may be theoretically correct for your point of view, but like I said, it all depends on how good the USB-to-i2s receiver section is on the DAC.  In every scenario I have tested, the S/PDIF connection always sounded better than USB.  In some cases, the USB was just horrible (yes, even on a $16,000 DAC!).

for audiomike33, I can definitely see how USB would be the superior outcome here because he is comparing to an optical output from a computer motherboard.  Once you get into the really nice S/PDIF transports, such as the Pink Faun PCI card, things become a lot more difficult.

@audiomike33  - you can continue to use your current USB output if you are happy with it.  Upgrading to a Pink Faun S/PDIF card will improve the result.  Adding an external linear power supply for the Pink Faun will further improve the result (though I doubt if you are going to spend that kind of money).

I am using the trial for Audirvana - from my laptop USB to back of the DAC. The improvement of sound quality is significant. 

Wow quite a debate going on here.  I know my Dac will do 24/192 from optical, so above poster is wrong.  You do need USB to get dsd out of the Dac.  Dsd has never really taken off and probally never will so im not worried about it really.

I built my computer myself and did have a Evga soundcard in it and it sounded pretty good.  I thought going to a desktop Dac would improve sound quality and features.  I took a chance on the SMSL D300 cause it has a completly different Dac chip.  I dont like ESS dac sound, METALIC comes to mind, i do like Bur Brown but the only only company who uses one is IFI.  Anyways this Dac sounds so so clean and analog sounding, great depth, good buy.

I had no idea i could by another card and put in my computer and run the usb out of that for optimal sound, how much better will it sound with this usb card ? im guessing not $400 worth.

First thing is to determine best input on dac, generally going to be usb with most. Once you determine this, you then optimize the compatible output on server or streamer. Optimization means both inputs and outputs optimized, otherwise not truly optimized. For usb out that means JCAT, Pink Faun usb card or external usb renderer. I'll repeat, very few servers with optimized usb. For example, Innuous Zen certainly seems popular, Innuous also makes Innuous PhoenixUSB, seems Innuous is very aware of their server's usb liabilities.

So an SPDIF card would be pretty much the last choice.

I don’t actually completely agree with this.

You may not agree, but your reply indicate you don't understand the reasoning (despite the fact that i laid it out).  USB is asynchronous. It simply reads bits into abuffer and is then reclocekd with a high quality clock.  If you don't have a high quality clock, you dont have a HQ DAC.

SPDIF, including Toslink, demands that the source clock and the sink derive timing.  Not good and the source clock is likely quite poor anyway

 

People love re-clockers. Yet a USB interface IS a reclocker. It must be.

to one post above, with the exception of some recent upgrades to the standard that essentially no one implements, optical SPDIF is alwasy limited to 16/44 or 16/48. Its part of the limitation (along with more jitter, lots more).

So an SPDIF card would be pretty much the last choice.

I don’t actually completely agree with this. USB is required for DSD. However, USB is a data packet interface. It is true that an upgraded USB audio card will help things, but this is not necessarily superior to S/PDIF card. It really depends how good the USB-to-i2s section is in your DAC.

I had an opportunity to compare USB vs S/PDIF on two different DACS. The music server was a $20,000 Pink Faun 2.16x with both USB and S/PDIF AES/EBU output cards. Both output cards had the OCXO clock upgrades.

When using my friend’s $16,000 DAC, the USB connection just did not sound good. It had a hard solid-state edge and the bass was weak. The DAC actually sounded amazing when using a AES/EBU cable, but it was very apparent that the USB connection sounded like crap.

Now when I put in my modified LKS MH-DA004 dac, the USB vs S/PDIF was a lot closer. The USB input on the LKS dac was significantly better than my friend’s $16k dac. It actually sounded pretty good, but it still was not as good as the balanced SPDIF input (AES/EBU).

I do appreciate all of the input I just spent $400 on a brand new DAC I'm not dumping another $400 into a USB card to go into my computer that's not going to happen.  I'm running at USB right n. I don't understand why I need another special card just to run sound out of my computer into a DAC anyways I appreciate everybody's input and it probably would make a difference but I'm not spending $400 on a card.

I would invest in a JCAT USB card ($495), though it’s probably more than you want to spend. Alternative, the Matrix Element H USB card ($329) or the SOTM tX-USBexp USB 3.0 card ($350) might be options. That being said, it’s hard to say whether the motherboard USB output would be better or worse than the motherboard optical output. You would just have to test to see.

If you are using an AMD processor, then look into a Pink Faun S/PDIF card ($360). That will likely be better than a USB card, since you are not looking for DSD.

 

This entire post needs some background info, First of all, all things equal, and for good technical reasons, USB > SPDIF and within SPDIF Electrical > Optical. So an SPDIF card would be pretty much the last choice.

 

So USB has the most potential, mostyl because it is aysnchronous and allows the DAC to reclock everything. The DAC likely has a better clock than the transport, and there is no long cable to mess it up, so less jitter.

Now, if you are using the solution with the best potential, which is USB, you have the further option of isolating either the sending side or the receiving side. Either works. I dont know enough about he internal design of either to be sure how well isolated one of the other is. Assume the sending device is poorly isolated - all PCs, Macs and laptops are poorly isolated (unless you buy one with a custom card, like an Allo streamer).

Optical (toslink, SPDIF) has one advantage: in a high EMI environment it is immune. That’s why its on TVs.

That said, one of this first posts hit the nail onthe head:  with the equipment you describe the differences are likely academic.

Auxinput one of the few who get it that usb or optical directly off motherboards not optimal. If there is one thing I'd like to get across to people it would be this. I find it inexcusable so many servers don't have optimized usb built in. Benjamin at Mojo Audio  was one the few  who understood this with his Deja Vu server, too bad not available any more.

 

Optical in same boat, only the Small Green Computer Sonicorbiter I9 addresses this.

 

Expect to spend more money and have more complex setup with most servers since they don't address above issue. One should ask themselves why all these usb renderers, decrapifiers, streamers exist? Because they're doing the job server should be doing.

 

I'm also curious about these rare dacs with optical input, interesting you prefer usb, at least so far. Is this due to your entire chain or quality of usb vs optical input on dac? I'd bet on usb input being superior as technology has been around much longer and reclockiing etc. SOP these days.

The Windows 7 and Windows 10 sound device system pretty much takes over any audio from an application.  I don't like the way they did this because it over-rides and re-samples/converts the original music data to whatever you set as "default" in the sound control panel.

The Amazon Music app for the PC may not be written to bypass these Windows control panel "Default Format" settings.  Many apps just send the sound file to the internal Windows WMD driver and just let Windows take over and handle the interface with the hardware.  JRiver is one of the few media players that is able to bypass Windows and actually send the music data in original sampling rate (but it mostly only plays files).

Let me correct that last statement.  Its showing 24/192 no matter whats playing on the dac screen, so if im playing a 24/96 the screen says 24/192 always, thats strange .  When i click on the song on amazon hd it now says device able to play 192, so at least im getting hi res.

Hey Auxinput you nailed it  awesome thank you that fixed the problem, now on the d300 its showing whats currently playing 24/192 etc.

Ok i will check that, went on amazon hd and in settings and its set to ultra hd so thats no the problem.

Try going to "Advanced" tab in your sound configuration in Control Panel and setting the Default Format to "2 channel, 24 bit, 192000 Hz (Studio Quality)".  Then try playing a youtube video and see if the DAC is receiving 24/192.  Alternatively, you can choose another default such as 24/96.  If this works, it could be a limitation of the Amazon player software.

No

So.. Can you get 24/192 to stream from another source besides Amazon?

Yes the dac driver has been installed

i cant get over 24/44

 

Nice DAC!

I assume you have installed the DAC's driver.

Did you try another music source to test?

 

 

 

I have amazon hd music, there are files on the 16/44 and there are 24/192 so it varies from song to song.  I have a strong internet connection, a fast computer, and a dac that does dsd, 24/192 in its sleep and higher.  Im running usb out of computer into back of dac and i cant get over 24/44, amazon keeps say my device only show thats its max ? whats going on any ideas ?

Well i bought a optical cable and ran it thru motherboad sound to my desktop dac and i can say for sureeee usb bypassing motherboard dac sounds much better.

fwiw I purchased the xonar essence STX - was using it's analog outputs - it only lasted @ 2 years before it died... wish it did not because i would have liked to have tried its coax output

Well I'm using the USB on my computer not the optical so that shouldn't be a limiting factor what's coming out of the computer right it's just straight out of the computer bypassing the dac on the motherboard.

 

Going to try to figure it out I'm going to try opticals if there's any difference .

Maybe the motherboard is limited to 24/48 on the optical?  No idea.  Have you checked the Sound configuration in Control Panel to see if 96.0 kHz is checked in the "Supported Formats" tab?

Weird thing is I got my smsl d300 hooked up through USB and I'm playing Amazon music I can't get above 24/48 when I check on the song I'm playing it does 24/96 but it says my device is only capable of 2448 that ain't right can't figure out what's going on even when I go somewhere to play a higher rate flac file the screen on the DAC never goes above 48.

In fact I think the smsl d300 is going to be any sound card you can put in your computer.

Maybe I'll look into those other sound cards I had the EVGA before and it sounds really good but I think my smsl d300 is going to smoke that EVGA sound card.

The EVGA Nu audio card does NOT have an RCA S/PDIF output. That’s what you really want. EVGA has an optical, but we are trying to avoid that interface because RCA coax will always sound better. For S/PDIF output, the Asus Xonar Essence STX will be better.

If you want to get rid of your D300 dac and use a computer sound card for analog output connecting directly to your Little Dot tube amp, then the EVGA Nu audio card will likely be better than the Asus Xonar Essence STX.

I don’t know how the EVGA Nu audio card will compare to your SMSL D300 dac. It will likely sound different in some ways (I could not tell you which would be better).

What about egva sound card it's better than the Asus.

You could buy a used Asus Xonar Essence STX on ebay for anywhere from $50 to $250.  There's an STX II card for $295 if you want the latest version.  These have an RCA S/PDIF output that is better than the optical on your motherboard.  Drivers are available on the Asus website.  However, it's not as good as the Pink Faun S/PDIF.

I am using a AMD board, those are some pricey cards not looking to spend that much money.

I would invest in a JCAT USB card ($495), though it’s probably more than you want to spend. Alternative, the Matrix Element H USB card ($329) or the SOTM tX-USBexp USB 3.0 card ($350) might be options. That being said, it’s hard to say whether the motherboard USB output would be better or worse than the motherboard optical output. You would just have to test to see.

If you are using an AMD processor, then look into a Pink Faun S/PDIF card ($360). That will likely be better than a USB card, since you are not looking for DSD.

USB (though iFI Silencer and ViaBlue) sounds much better on mine. I think.

When I had a DAC with an optical input, I found that it got me slightly better sound than USB when I connected it to the only other optical-equipped component in my system, a Sony CD player..

Thank you for your reply I'm going to try optical and USB and actually see if there is any difference.

That SMSL is rare streamer/dac with optical input, so optical solution really inexpensive for you. Whether usb or optical superior will have to be determined by you.

Maybe I'll try both I'll just buy two cables pop on my headphones and see if I can hear any noticeable difference.

Both are decent, USB sounds and looks good to me. 

It probably doesn't matter at all.  You likely won't be able to tell the difference.  I have had optical connections that I thought were inferior but I didn't have any incentive to figure it out, I just switched to USB and was happy.  Most roon users, including me, use USB.  There is some anti-usb rhetoric out there.  I don't believe it but some do.  Either way, given the level of equipment in your system, you shouldn't be affected by it.   

Jerry

Ha Ha

Through the stop sign from the computer.