I tried the Focal 1038Be2 with some ARC separates(Classic 120 mono amps), don't recall which preamp and phono I was on at the time. I was not impressed with the match either, but didn't consider letting go of my ARC gear and sold the Focals. I have the Wilson Sophia 1 and they were a much better match. I have always been curious about the Primaluna gear and have watched funny ol Uncle Kev in quite a few YouTube videos.
Did you keep the last REF 75/75SE you had when you got your PL gear? That sounds like a nice combo to the the PL preamp with a 75SE.
I watched the YouTube video from Oct where the HiFi buys guy, Alan, interviewed Trent, the new owner of ARC. It was nice to hear about how focused they are on correcting the errors of being under the McIntosh group management. Trent said they have never seen Warren as excited as he is every time he listens to the REF 80S. Geez, though, at $15k...when will that be down to a reasonable price on the used market? They also will be releasing a more affordable line so that will be quite interesting to watch their product lineup grow under Trent.
I am considering a move to solid state now lol. There was a thread last year that said you aren't truly an audiophile unless you change out components somewhat frequently. I get so much enjoyment out of the excitement over a noticeable improvement.
Enjoy! |
Hi dhite71. I did try the 75se, and it is significantly better than the 75. I’m on to Focal Sopra and I felt the ARC gear was a little white/dry for them. I’m on to PrimaLuna Evo400 separates. The preamp is a stunner. The amp is not as special as the 75 or 150.
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@jo1mtb
This was a fun read and I am curious if you system is up to date or if you ever tried anything else. If I were you I would probably get a REF 75SE for comparison. It will most likely sound better than the non-SE and obviously will be easy to sell whichever one you choose. I have too read so many things about how the REF 75 is simply a special creation by ARC. I had a REF 150 for a few months and can’t believe how cheap I sold it last year. People really don’t seem to want them to anywhere near the level of the REF 75s. |
THanks for the info- and thats still Sashas? |
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thanks-- so NO ref 150se-- regular ref 75 is the keeper? |
Ultimately, I can’t get away from he ref75. I added kt150s, and it’s a real dream. Even prefer it w my Wilson Alexias. Wow. |
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It is definitely always changing, and you cannot really tell what one tweak in one system will result in in another system. Things are not linear.
More listening today. Short story: I'll be keeping the 150SE.
I'll be giving up the nth degree of sweetness on some recordings, for sweeping improvement across most everything - in my system. |
jo1mtb, it's good that you are comparing different pces in your own system for your own taste. So many factors come into play, rest of your system components, room etc. so others will differ. Put in a Ref6 or any other component and your comments will change again, reposition of your speakers - add room acoustic panels - doing any of these what you are currently hearing will change - it's never ending. Your comments above referring to a 75 saying; "I felt/and do feel that the 75 is a bit bright (like a gold gilding) on the high highs (like symbols in rock music)." non SE version My speakers are 107 db and if such was present would be easily heard but there are no such findings - my set-up is totally different than yours but clearly shows system dependant. Personally what you are describing is what I here when listening to your version of speaker - the series 2 not so which is my preference. So many factors - for sure it's a never ending journey. Personally I would have upgraded from your Ref3 to 6, there is one currently up for sale and paired it up with the 75SE - break both in and enjoy! Work on the rest of your set-up and then get a 150SE say in years time or so to compare if you find you are still missing something. |
Update:
I received the Ref 150SE, dropped it in, and was not initially blown away.
It has ~600 original hours. It has always been an SE.
I let it play for about 10 hours, still wasn't taken by it.
I put the Ref 75 (non SE) back in. It sounded sweeter, but thin and tinny/splashy by comparison. Put the KT150s in the 75, it sounded less sweet, less splashy, but firmer bass (which can sound like less bass), also less billowing (bellows) sound. It gave a bit more body to the Ref 75.
I put the Ref 150 SE back in, and realized how good it actually sounded. Plus I think it hadn't been played in awhile, so I think it's still having a bit of a re-breaking/settling in.
Short story: Ref 150SE is now beating the Ref 75 nearly across the board.
NOTE: It was critical to have isolation under the digital source to get sweetness back from the system w/ the 150SE in.
If anyone is interested in deeper, specific, more critical analysis as I go along, I'm happy to check back in here.
I'll likely be playing and swapping through the weekend.
Thanks!
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I have heard the 150 and 75SE's, but not next to each other. From that, I would say that neither amp really changes it's character, or power output, though control of speakers would be better. So I just think you get the same basic character, it just gets better. In the case of the 75, a lot of that "better", is in the base, but the overall sound improves too. So no, I don't think SE status will make the 150 more like the 75. |
So, with the returning of the Ref75SE, I'm considering a Ref 150 SE that is for sale here/now.
Has anyone compared the Ref75 to the 150SE?
When I A/B compared in my system the Ref75 and the non SE Ref150, I fell more for the sweetness and emotional performance engagement of the 75 over the authority and soundstage of the 150. However, I felt/and do feel that the 75 is a bit bright (like a gold gilding) on the the high highs (like symbols in rock music). The 150 seemed to provide better control of the highs (as well as the low band)
The 150 took those edges off and made more music more enjoyable, but I lost a few degrees of in-the-room magic that the 75 provides on more close, small-scale performances.
So, I'm wondering if the Ref 150SE provides both...???
Let the debate begin (again).
I value your thoughts and personal experience-based opinions.
Thanks in advance!
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It continues.
I had to return the Ref 75SE (by the way the customer service from The Music Room who I purchased it from here on A'gon is awesome). It had at least a fried resistor when I received it. They made it right w/ prompt and full refund.
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Sounds like you are obsessed with ref. How about Zesto Bia. Get out of this rut and experience life which is only a metaphor for music.Put the enjoyment back in music. |
That's too bad. In your case, there was actual damage and something wasn't working...don't be hard on yourself. Hope it gets sorted out. I'm sure you'd rather not have to return the amp. All the best.
There's a lot of screaming and chest thumping across forum-land for much much much less and often insubstantial issues.
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@david_ten
i don't know yet. The 75se arrived with some damage. I've returned it to the store to have their tech look at it. The left channel wasn't working. I hope to have it back soon. Hoping it's simple and doesn't require a refund. When I get it back I'll have an update
By the way, the arc sourced kt150/ it came with worked perfectly w my non SE so I need to return thetubestore tubes for another set - witch they have been very good about (cust serv).
Ugg. First-world problems!! 😀 |
@jo1mtb How's it working out? |
Congrats! Your findings of what you feel your 75 lacked in comparison to the 150 will most defiantly change with your 75SE. I have 75SE paired up with the REF6, marvelous combo :) |
Congratulations! The circle is complete!
Bliss, tomorrow on? |
Checking back in on this.
I listened to the Ref 150 for quite a while. Just sold it on here. It is a VERY nice amp, but to me the sweetness of the 75 it can't match.
It beats the 75 in soundstage depth, grip, venue/ambiance, and pace. But to my ears the 75 beats it nearly everywhere else; timbre, sweetness, finer grain, acoustic bellows tube sound, emotional connection to the artist(s) - and I never feel like I'm missing the extra watts.
Also, I just purchased a 75SE. Should be here tomorrow. My 75 will be going up for sale here.
Thanks all.
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ARC also uses Maggies, which isn't a match with the Ref75SE |
On the other hand :-)- it deserves noting that Warren Gehl of ARC uses the Ref 150se in his reference system that he uses for ARC's final check-subjective auditioning-of every piece that leaves the factory. Mikey Fremer's two episode video of his recent visit/tour of the ARC facility (available on Youtube) reveals this fact. Warren compares the sound of other amps to the Ref150se as his-pun-reference-before they go out the door. |
I agree with sonicsmith, I think the 75 is in a sweet spot for ARC, who seem to produce the great, classic amps in the 50 to 100watt output window, like the D60 for example. I certainly preferred the sweetness you describe, to the sound of the Ref 150. In answer to your question, I don't think you lose anything with the SE upgrade, just gain better grip and base in particular. My amp is staying till it gives up the ghost and if I have to change speakers, I will make sure they match the ARc's output, but my Daedalus speakers ain't going anywhere either. If you want to get the flavour of the SE upgrade, you can by just changing the tubes, it's quite safe, I and many others did it and you save on ARC's tube prices, if you buy from say Upscale audio. The only problem is you can't put the top of the amp back on, but no problem. It will give you a large part of the SE upgrade, without the cost. ARC may huff and puff about using the tubes in the factory upgrade. They told me they might not be perfectly matched!! Silly me, I thought that's what adjustable bias was for. With the full upgrade, the amp top can fit back on. In truth, I am sure I would be very happy with the Ref 75 and 150. Both I expect, will be revered amps for years to come and will maintain a good resale value.
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I suspect that the 75se has a sweeter midrange and an overall clearer presentation than the 150 due to the simpler circuit-ARC has noted that even in the context of the new line-up, there is something special about the 75se. The question is whether there is a trade-off when sacrificing power and whether optimizing speaker placement wouldn't be a much better investment of time/effort/money. I looked at the OP's system-once you reach this level of component quality the culprit/solution of less-than-thrilling sound is not a cable here and an amp swap there. |
Personally I wouldn't give up so soon. Audiophile opinions are a dime a dozen. You bought a great amp. Give it a chance. What often happens is that when you put the old unit back in you're no longer sure which is best. Finally if you love your Ref 75 leave it as is. Recall that no system is perfect. Just take a look at the success of Audiogon.
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The Ref 150 is posted back for sale on here. It's an awesome amp, just not the right cup of tea for my system and ears. |
@david_ten
I would, but I'm not so hesitant to do anything to this 75.
Can anyone comment; does upgrading to 75 make the amp lose any of it's sweetness, personality, and emotion (connection to the artist)?
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Perhaps get the upgrade done while you have the 150? |
Then, it's good that your Ref 75 didn't sell!
Market is good for ARC. All the best.
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Yep... Oh well. I got the 150 for a pretty good price... Hopefully, I can get back the same.
I've removed my Ref 75 ad. |
@jo1mtb : Should have heeded the gut. : ) Deep down you knew. |
@david12
I think I'm coming to the same conclusion. Anyone looking for a very nice Ref 150?
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I don't know. I don't think that's it. The ref 150 had kt120s in it too. both have 120s in. Never heard the kt150s
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Do you really like the sound of those KT 120's?
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To late to make any difference to your decision, but I would have gone for the 75SE. I listened to the 75, 110 and 150, when I originally bought my 75 and I preferred the sound quality, to either of the other two amps. They are all quite different and none are "tube like", that is warm with rolled off treble, as the epithet so often indicates. Yet the 75 had more of the rich, detailed, fast character, that the best tube amps give. I found the 150, more solid state in sound.
I upgraded to the SE status and it is absolutely worth it, giving cleaner, tighter base, as you were seeking.
For me, I would always go for the 75 SE, only if power output is adequate. I felt it was definitely OK, with the Wilson Sabrinas, I have'nt heard the 75 with the Sashas
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Alright. The 150 arrived.
I'm hoping it might need to break in some. Right now it feels a bit like it's going through the motions. The emotional connection to the performance I was getting through the Ref 75, just isn't there.
I know tubes need to set in. About how long does that take in your all's experience? (All new tubes. They were all matched very well, w/in 1mv of master-slave, from TheTubeStore).
The bass does have the nth more control and it pressurizes my room a bit better on more demanding tracks.
Right now, the plan is to let it play over night and check in again in the morning. I'll likely let it play for a couple days before making any decisions. But, if things don't get much better (engaging emotionally), I'll be putting the 75 back in by end of weekend.
Any advice, tips, experience. How long should I wait to decide? |
@jo1mtb : Congratulations. Looking forward to hearing about how it all works out for you. |
Congrats, dollar wise no brainer and your Sasha's will be happy - suppose next move will be SE upgrade :) |
Good move jo1mtb. I look forward to your thoughts on the differences. |
Say one thing, do another, huh? I just pulled the trigger on a very nice looking ARC Ref 150 (non SE) here. Price seemed very good. After I sell my Ref 75 (even below current offering asking prices here), it is going to come out $500-1k less dinero - as apposed to the $2500 to make the 75 a 75SE. So, I figured I'd jump on this 150.
I'll post a comparison of the 75 to the 150 in my system if anyone is interested.
@dev I just bought two sets of the Grand Prix Audio isolation feet. Second pair under the source Lumin added inner detail I can't un-hear. Just solid improvement all around.
Thanks again to all for your valuable input.
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That's awesome what you are experiencing with the GP feet, it's pretty amazing by just adding isolation one can get such positive SQ. I have owned allot of ARC components over the years including the Ref3, great pre but the Ref6 offers substantial sonic differences across the sonic spectrum and will most defiantly put a huge smile on your face. Don't dare put one in your system unless you are prepared to buy :) If it was my system as mentioned above my next upgrade would be before I spent $$$ on G5 cables I would get a Ref6 :) - paired up with the 75SE amazing combo. With the Ref MM cables through out paired up with the Ref6 and Ref 75se the improvements I hear; noise floor drops substantially, everything sonic wise across the spectrum is just more realistic sounding, the sound stage is more focused with performers and instruments being more stable so this provided endless goose bumps listening - the base which to me is the foundation to music is substantial providing proper control without sounding mechanical - I'm very taken back and very impressed. F.Y.I. Want to hear a nice improvement - place 3 Sistrum Audio points with disc under your Ref3 - http://www.audiopoints.com/audioPoints.php Enjoy your journey! |
Seems your collective advice is as back and forth as my thoughts. 😀 I think I'm going to give the 75se a rip and invest further in isolation w ref speaker cables G5 on the horizon. I am demoing 1 pr of Grand Prix isolation feet and the make a big difference under the amp in soundstage depth and precision.
and a bit in the bass. Under the source, much inner detail comes to light.
Thanks all!!! |
I would not buy a non-SE ARC amp - the sonic gains are too much. I would save up for a Ref150SE or get a Ref 75SE in the interim and see how it performs.
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This hobby is never ending journey, if it was my system I would; 1. 75SE - this is a great match with your speakers and should check off your wants. If you want to take your system to the next level over the next few years; - ARC Ref6 - forget about the 5SE. - Cables do matter and you already like Transparent product so you should look at putting into your system Reference MM or greater cables through out, costly but you will pleasantly hear the benefits and just works with ARC. - Isolation for your Pre and 75 - doing such can defiantly be heard. Enjoy! |
I totally agree with gpgr4blu. You could always the Ref 150 upgraded by ARC to the SE version later if you felt the need.
The difference between the Ref 3 and Ref 5 is not that big. The difference between the Ref 5 and Ref 5se is much bigger. The difference between the Ref 3 and Ref 5se is substantial. The Ref 5se is just magical with a huge holographic soundstage. If close my eyes and I would swear there is a piano in my living room.
I also agree that isolation is very important. When I went from a Solidsteel rack to a maple rack I could hear an audible difference. Maple sounds smoother, less mechanical at least with tube equipment. I noticed the biggest improvement with my amp. I now have a maple Zoethecus rack with the Z-slabs.
Each of the shelves is layered with RF shielding. I have each piece sitting on large stainless steel cones. The other thing that made a big difference was replacing my power cords with Shunyata Alpha HC cords. They just enhanced all the great qualities of my Ref 5se.
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ARC 150 non SE and then, when the tubes are used up, replace them with KT 150s. I have gone through the Ref 110 with 6550s, Ref 110 with KT 120s, Ref 150 with KT 120s, Ref 150 with KT 150s--all with my Sashas. I have also heard the Sashas with The Ref75, 75SE, Ref 250s and Ref 250SEs.
IMHO, the Ref 75 and 75SE will not have the sheer grunt and force of the non SE Ref 150. The added bonus is you can get to at least 85 percent of Ref 150SE just by installing the KT150s at the appropriate time. The standard Ref 150 drives the Sashas almost as well as the Ref 250s and much better than the Ref 75SE.
Ken Kessler from HIFI News thought he had gotten everything he could out of his Alexias with the Ref 75. Then he heard the Ref 150SE and said it simply showed him things he never knew existed and that the Ref150SE was "supernatural" and "a level beyond". It replaced the Ref 75 as his reference. The difference between the Ref 75 and Ref 150 is even more pronounced with the Alexias than it is with Sashas---but it's still a huge difference with the Sashas. |
@jo1mtb Since you are looking for "more definition and control, without messing with the rest of the sound" have you considered isolation platforms for your speakers? I looked at your system pic and if it is current, it looks like you are using some type of footers (stock?).
Something like the Star Sound Technologies Sistrum platforms. I personally have not used them, but they have consistently received strong endorsements from owners (that I know) that have considerable experience with speaker performance.
It is a different direction and, likely, less of an outlay. I think Star Sound Technologies offers a full return guarantee, so it’s an easy test to conduct. If you really like the results, any subsequent amp upgrade will just add to what you’ve gained by using the platforms.
Hope that helps. Best of luck. |
