Somewhere around 1/2" diameter bar stock, drilled for the motor spindle size, a couple of thousandths by ~5/8" landing. |
Technically, what you're looking for isn't a "spindle", it's a "capstan".
I used the proper term in my OP, but then we got lazy, hazy, crazy.... |
I've posted a question in a few places on where I can find an online site that sells spindles that I may be able to use for the mylar tape. I'll update here if I locate a source. My web search didn't uncover anything of use (a lot of hits on chair and railing spindles :-)
Bob |
Bob,
Forgot you had that style of spindle, sorry. Maybe Socoaste can make you a new one from cocobolo. :-)
The platter rim must be straight vertical and flat at belt height. The TT motor must be sufficiently quiet and non-cogging so that the sonic benefits of more linear coupling TO the motor outweigh the higher transmission of noise and cogging FROM the motor. Given all those conditions, it just needs someone with access to a lathe and a drill press to make a replacement spindle.
|
No doubt you are right, about both the silk vs mylar improvement and the stickiness and dust/hair collecting aspect. Unfortunately I have a VPI morot and spindle, so it's pinched and not flat. So I can't use the mylar solution for now.
Would that I could, unless you can point to a spindle I can use as a replacement (I've looked at earlier posts and see references to it but no specific recommendation or link - perhaps I missed it). Always up for a DIY challenge.
Bob |
Thanks, Dan. Wonder if Thom would drill me one to fit? (Hint!)
I considered auto belt dressing 4-5 years ago, and was advised not to for the reason Dan just mentioned. I don't want residue building up on my table either, I have enough trouble controlling cat hairs without glueing them to the platter.
I do understand why silk thread users are seeking improvement, since it's inferior to any mylar tape, but the AA fellow would save time if he did a little research before repeating failed experiments. Multiple Teres/Galibier owners tried and rejected silk thread back in 2002-2003. Even 1 mil mylar works better, and Teres/Galibier/Redpoint tables advanced beyond that years ago. The belt we're discussing here is at least four generations improved over silk thread/fishing line in my experience.
|
Yes, Doug. Thom has the pulleys made with a flat surface with a small lip top and bottom. Much like a tape guide from R2R.
The easiest method I have found to locate the textured side is using a micro-fibre cloth. One side of the mylar will glide along, the other will grab the cloth.
I have gotten belt dressing on my hands plenty of times. I'm sure some folks are having good results, but I don't want that stuff on my table. The static is not an issue for me. |
There was a posting over at Audio Asylum that speaks to treating silk thread with an auto parts belt treatment spray, making it tackier and able to grip better with little slippage. Here's the content of the relevent information, including a good link and cheap source for 100% silk thread.
Enjoy,
Bob
------------------
It is Griffin Silk Bead Cord. Link below for online supply:
http://www.artbeads.com/stringing-materials-griffin-silk-bead-cord.html
The belt dressing is common. The stuff I'm using is called "Belt-Ease". It comes in a spray can and can be bought from the auto parts stores around here.
To apply:
I remove the silk "belt" from the TT and place in a small bowl or similar container. (a clean tin can)
Then spray the belt with enough "Belt-Ease" to fully saturate the belt with the product.
Soak.
Remove the belt from the bowl of "Belt-Ease" and place on a newspaper or similar disposable material and allow the silk to evaporate most of the "Belt-Ease" overnight.
Next day: wipe the silk belt with a clean paper towel. At this point the silk will still be damp but also showing some tackiness.
Use it like that. It will dry over several days but remain slightly tacky to the touch. That's How I use it on the silk bead cord.
-Steve |
The embossed pattern itself is too fine to see. The only visible evidence is a blurry prismatic/rainbow effect when the light catches it at just the right angle.
Good luck, let us know how it goes.
|
Hey I just got through acid etching the metallic coating, or (prism)
on some new mylar that I just received from McCormicks,
(1/2" Halographic) now I am wondering If I even got the correct Mylar.
After the acid etching, I rinsed it off & the Mylar looks
like regular basic standard clear Mylar, I do not see
any hint of any embossing on the Mylar.
Did I get the wrong Mylar?
Also am trying out a new mod on the pulley & will report any improvements, & I have a custom one off belt I had a belt mfr make that didn't impress, but I think I came up
with an idea that will surely improve it. more later....
In the mean time.....I'll install the new modified mylar
belt (that looks like regular Mylar) on for some spinning, & splice it with scotch tape until I get some real splicing tape. |
Dan,
I'm unfamiliar with a Galibier-like pulley, but if yours is straight while mine isn't, I think I understand.
Frank,
Glad to hear a second vote that non-convex works. Fully agree that very careful levelling is required. If one foot is off by even a few thousandths... there goes the tape. No problem normally, as you said.
|
I only use straight profile non-convex/concave pulleys on my tape drive table. Anything else I tried didn't work anyway. I assumed that's what Teres used.
Yes, it is a PITA to get the belt running properly but once set up, it's fine. You really need a leveling mechanism (which I have) under the motor to make it easier to true up the tape rotation. |
Doug, do you mean a Galibier-like pulley? ;-) Socoaste, the wood pulley does sound like a cool idea and that's a great wood to machine. A good lathe is one tool I still don't have.
|
Cool idea for the motor pulley. That would look nice.
If you can, I've always been curious about how a pulley with flat sides (rather than convex/bowed) would work. I've no objection to the top and bottom lips, to keep the belt sliding off, but a pulley with a flat cross-section in the working area would provide more surface area, so more grip and less slippage - or so it seems to me. It wouldn't provide the self-centering function of the bow, so the belt splice and the levelling of all components would have to be pretty accurate.
If you can make one and it works, I'll gladly trade you some made up belts or a length of splicing tape for one. |
I dont do 1099's! Just send cash in a non windowed
envelope as I would not want that plasticized window
material to make It's way to the GPGP!
Better yet....Why don't We just call It even as a way of My
saying Thanks for Your dedication & determination to the further advancement of platter motor interface.
Deal?
Incidentally, I Myself plan to do a little bit of
messing around & will be attempting to make a coccobolo
motor pulley for My Teres Ref. motor. |
Socoaste,
Apologies for a spot of fun. No assault on the Pacific was intended or implied, and none is countenanced.
Apologies also for misquoting the tape price. We owe you the differential of $20.97, less the value of a single-user license for the amortized value of R&D costs for this and other tweaks we've made freely available rather than selling. (Your use thereof constitutes your consent to our licensing agreement, which remains unpublished but runs pretty much entirely in our favor.)
I've asked Accounting to complete a net value assessment of the transaction, after which I'll order a check cut or we'll invoice you, as the case may require.
Please respond in the affirmative confirming your understanding and mutual agreement, and forward your SSN/TIN so we can 1099 you.
|
Socoaste,
I have an extra roll that I've used for a splice or two. The only slight downside, to me anyway, is that it is white.
Your desire to conserve is appreciated, but I can't imagine anyone using this etched mylar belt that won't need to make at least two or three per year.
Yes! They do wear and it is audible when you put a fresh belt on. The splicing tape will still make it eventually to the GPGP, one belt at a time. :-) |
Doug Your killing Me,
First of all the 1" tape I seen at usrecordingmedia,com
was 25.97 not 5.00.
My main peeve is I did not want to waste all that tape,
1 foot would probably last Me a lifetime. How many guys
here purchased 100 foot rolls of tape, 10? that's a
thousand feet of tape in order to make a few belts?
I didn't realize It would be such a big stinking deal
to slip a piece of tape into an envelope in the effort
to save some natural resources in this throw away society.
I will order the 100 foot roll & toss the other 99 feet
into the garbage & just maybe, It will find It's way to
the Great Pacific Garbage Patch.
Thanks for the tip. |
Socoaste,
Re-read point #5 in my original post.
You've got a multi-thousand dollar vinyl rig and won't spend $5 for a roll of tape? Sorry, that's too cheap even for me.
FWIW, my experiences with the shipping tape Zargon uses were less successful. Every belt I made using such tape (both 3M brand and others) resulted in a splice that eventually spread, leaving glue residue on platter and motor spindle. Different climates maybe?
|
Socoaste, see my post of 11/30/08 above. This is all you need. |
I need some splicing tape............
I hate to order a 100 foot roll of splicing tape when
all I need is maybe 1 foot. (rediculous to Me)
I'm sure a bunch of You guys have a multi lifetime
supply. So here's my request...If I send You a Stamped Self adressed envelope & a few bucks, Could You slip
a couple of lengths of 1" splice tape inside
the envelope & drop it in a mail box at your leisure?
by the way USRecordingmedia was out of the tape when I last
checked.
THANKS. |
DOUG D............
What is the reasoning in using 1 inch splicing tape
if the mylar is only half inch wide? are the splices precut to a predetermined length & that length is not
long enough for the splice? I'm a little confused.
I just ordered some Halographic 1/2 inch mylar & now
I need something to splice it, I am DONE with using
scotch tape as it contantly lets loose & leaves a sticky
residue on the cocobollo platter.
I also plan to order some etching creme to remove the
metallic from the mylar. |
Interesting indeed. At RMAF, TW's table was the only belt drive not using tape that didn't betray the obvious flaws of an elastic/rubbery belt. We walked out of a dozen other rooms within minutes, disappointed by softened transients and dulled microdynamics.
The Raven didn't do that, at least not that we could hear in that system, so TW's belt material must be unusually effective. Sonofjim's estimate seems right, but only a direct, in-system comparison will tell. Please do keep us posted.
|
Emailist,
Just curious why you're messing around with mylar. Are you considering giving it a try on the Raven One? If so, be sure to post your findings. I'm curious about how the TWs proprietary belt material compares with a well implented tape drive. My guess would be that the TW belt is easier to install and more maintainance free at the cost of slightly lower performance but only someone who's compared directly could support or refute this hypothesis. |
HI Emailist,
It is a slight difference to the touch. I find that the textured side will stick a bit when the mylar is allowed to freely slide on my finger. The smooth side just glides along. And, it is usually the side that the mylar wants to curl to. |
I have tried the product Etch All etching creme.
The Etch All really did a great job or removing the metallic surface
within a few seconds, and supposedly does not use hydroflouric acid.
I did have to mark the front of the mylar before taking the silver off. Once the silver is off, I found it difficult to tell which was the front and which was the back. |
My dear Wife sat patiently one rainy afternoon to listen to her favorite music while I went through a similar cleaning maintenance routine as most here do.
I usually try to keep ahead by doing a thorough cleaning and dusting after use also.Usually.....
What she observed me doing lead to a short lecture asking me why I do not keep other things I use/own, especially my bathroom, to the same level of attention.
After 27 years together, now she really knows me....
On a different note.
Great informative subject and good work Doug and Paul.
|
Absolutely true. I dust the working side of ours before every side by holding my CF brush against it. I also dust the platter rim before each listening session. Simple but essential.
The static potential buildup between belt and platter is a dust magnet and I once pondered grounding the belt in some way. Paul said, "Don't bother, the static's required to make the system work. The stronger the static buildup the better it's functioning.".
Naturally I didn't believe this harebrained nonsense, so I tried zapping the belt with a Zerostat while it was running. It instantly lost all grip with the platter. He laughed. I shrugged. After 26 years I'm used to making a fool of myself trying to test him on a science question.
At least I proved the Zerostat works. :-)
|
I just want to stress importance of keeping your belt clean. I left it as-is for half a year because of my lazyness. Now I got it cleaned with alcohol: amaizing amount of dust deposit removed and I realized what I missed.
It seems all sonic goodies we have due to perfect grip of the etched mylar were gradually nullified by the accumulated layer of dust between belt and pulley. |
Now I decided to take the mylar seriously and replace the thread belt on my VPI twin platters rim drive. As the plastic wheel is absolutely not adapted to drive mylar tape I will replace it with a Pinch roller wheel used on the capstan system of reel to reel tape decks, carefuly aligned and made by a specialist (terrysrubberrollers) in USA. I will keep you informed. |
Frank,
I didn't see it there either. I haven't seen clear or frosted A-V splicing tape in quite a while. My roll's 3-4 years old. |
Doug, I don't see the frosted colour splicing tape on the website you mentioned. |
Thanks Stltrains, Doug, and Zargon for all the good (and fast) advice. Before I even had a chance to read it, though, I made a temporary belt with some of the mylar and a piece of 2" Scotch brand packing tape as a splice. (So far it's working just fine & LPs sound as good as ever.) I then put in an order for Doug's preferred splice tape, so hopefully I won't have to use the temporary belt for very long...
Thanks too to Swampwalker for offering me a free belt!
I'll have to spend a little time in the archive and see what else I've missed all those nights I was spinning (or cleaning) LPs instead of checking this forum... |
I'm really at a loss Stltrains. I use Armour as well. It does say "improved" on the label. I'm assuming we bought the stuff around the same time. Go figure. ;-) |
Am_dial,
Here is another splicing tape suggestion which has worked for me. Get a roll of 2" wide mailing tape, the kind used for taping cardboard boxes. These rolls come in both brown and clear, and while I have used both, the brown feels thinner for some reason. This kind of tape is very very thin, very very stong in tension, and the adhesive is very very sticky.
I have used mailing tape for all the mylar belts I have made over the last few years, and none have ever failed nor is there any evidence of stretching or adhesive ooze etc. The joints, when made as Doug advises above, do not thump and can not be heard unless your ear is right up against the belt. Best of all, this tape is readily available and inexpensive. |
Hi Am dial, long time no hear. Welcome back!
My long term suggestion is none of the above.
www.usrecordingmedia.com also has 1" TME professional/archival splicing tape. That's what I use, except mine's clear (frosted), not blue.
1) Cut the overlapped mylar ends on a 30-40 degree angle, not vertically, to avoid thumps when going round the motor capstan.
2) Lay the 1" tape across the splice at the same angle and burnish with a thumbnail.
3) Trim the excess off top and bottom.
Scotch tape is okay for emergency use but the splice will stretch, the adhesive will ooze and get all over your platter. Archival/VCR splicing tape won't do that. |
Am dial you are so right in your musical hiatus. Just to get you by good old scotch tape will work till you get some splicing tape. Pull mylar around your platter and motor cut the excess at a angle and use scotch tape for the splice to get your analog play in while waiting.
I am sure more goners will chime in with more ideas. I have numerous made up belts dont know if they will work for your Teres though. |
Hi everyone,
I haven't been around this forum in a while -- been far too busy enjoying the Teres 160 I bought in late 2005. Well, I went back to the archives to search for mylar belt construction info., as my old belt (the one made by Teres) finally gave way at the splice -- about three years of regular listening later!
I did buy a few rolls of McCormick's holographic mylar some time ago in anticipation of this day, but don't think I ever ended up with any splice tape. In searching online now, I find the following options (some of these sources are listed in this thread):
1. VHS 1/2" splicing tape from tapecenter.com
2. TME professional / archival 1/2" splicing tape from usrecordingmedia
3. Pakor 1" premium splicing tape from pakor.com
4. 1 mil, 1" mylar silicone splicing tape from tapecase.com
Anyone have any opinions as to the best splice tape option for the mylar belt application?
I'll probably get into some acid-etching later, but for right now the immediate concern is getting supplies and making a belt ASAP so I can listen to some LPs! (And if anyone has an extra belt / feels like making an extra belt with their supplies on hand & sending it my way, this desperate analog fan would be happy to send a little $ for the favor...) |
Dan the etching cream i bought is called Armour Etch. I only made one belt. It took me more that 15 minutes to remove the backing. Maybe my pick of cream is not as active as yours. I followed the directions I'm sure. Used a rag to apply the cream and let it sit a bit before wiping it off. |
Elbow grease. Really? Something doesn't seem right. I put the cream on with an artist's brush and the metal almost instantly disappears. No rubbing, scrubbing or anything. It just melts away in seconds. |
Thanks Frank you are most likely right on with the temperature effect. Even down south in New Orleans winter has started early.
Doug as always your posts and info are very productive for good sound many thanks
Dan i was able to get most off with a fair amount of elbow grease, i guess i will have to put a little more effort into it.
all have a good one. |
Thanks for the update, Doug. I've been wondering what I was going to do with that other 90-something feet of tape. ;-)
The tension thing is also different with the Galibier motor pod. With the extra girth and weight of the Galibier pod it is easy to over tension the belt. First you will begin to lose speed. I'm talking 5 to 10% drop. Make it a bit tighter and then the belt will practically jump right off the capstan.
Stltrains, I'm also puzzled why you had a problem getting the metal off. Maybe trying to be too frugal with the cream? |
Mike,
We had no trouble getting all the silver material off.
Frank,
My motor has three height adjustable spikes, so it's easy to adjust spindle angle like your base does (though I do wish my threads were a tighter fit). It would be difficult to use these belts without some such adjustment.
Thanks for the temperature tip, though in my case the belt was visibly worn and there's no question it needed replacement. I've been using mylar belts for 5 years and retensioning efforts were no longer working. Replacing it did.
With the acid etched mylar belt discussed on this thread, if there's little visible wear and if the holographic/rainbow effect is still visible, it probably doesn't need replacement yet, as you said. |
Regarding the cogging issues with the Hurst AC motors, the 300RPM motors have 24 poles, twice as many as the 600RPM motors so cogging is much more moticable with the 600RPM motors. I have at least 3 Hurst AC motors in the shop right now. I only use them as backups. |
Don't be too quick to replace the belt. It's a lot colder now, being winter, and thermal expansion will have an affect on your belt. I know that since I've been using a tape drive for the past 3 years this is exactly what happens when the temperature changes, the belt creeps up or down on the pulley and you have to re-tension it.
I machined a leveling base (has 3 adjustable leveling feet) for my motor pod to sit on and this makes it easy to dial in belt alignment and also helps isolate it. |
Hey Doug. My belt has needed more adjustment for flat speed lately, i guess its time for me to replace also. You mentioned your sheen is just about gone as is mine also. I am not having any problems with how the belt is riding though.
A question on the etching process. When i removed the backing i was not able to get all off. Does that sound about right to you.
Hoping your turkey was a good one
Mike |
UPDATE: our first AEB just reached the end of its useful life after 10-11 months of regular use.
The decline from fully dynamic to "what the heck's wrong" was quick and easy to diagnose. Over the last few days it didn't want to stay up on the capstan but kept riding down to the bottom flange. Re-levelling the motor helped some, but the physical belt wear was visible and there was little holographic sheen left. When I spun up a record it was obvious within moments that we had speed stability issues.
The AEB went from good performance to yuck in 4 days or less, which I guess is better than a slow decline that one might not notice. I spliced up a new one and all's right again.
Individual lifetimes will vary I'm sure, with the texture of the motor capstan being a factor. Ours is slightly rough, which may shorten belt life. As mentioned above, "helping" the platter to start and (for Teres owners) turning off the motor switch before stopping the platter should reduce belt/capstan slippage and lengthen belt life.
|
I finally got around to doing this over the weekend. For any that are looking to get etching cream Michael's has the Armour etching cream for $11.99 a bottle. They had a coupon in the paper for 40% off any item thus making it less than $7.00. Not bad for an audio upgrade. My results seem as others have mentioned with better dynamics and overall detail. Thanks Paul for coming up with this idea. |
If you wear that skirt, I'll wear my kilt. |
You guys have fun out there in Denver! Anne and I just can't seem to work out the RMAF dates with our schedules. |
