Yes,
Look up a few posts and you will see a link I provided for mylar streamers.
Scott
Look up a few posts and you will see a link I provided for mylar streamers.
Scott
Upgrade for users of 1/2" mylar belt
This thread will be of interest to Galibier, Redpoint and Teres belt drive TT owners, or anyone using or thinking of using a drive belt made from 1/2" mylar. The belt material of choice on these tables for several years has been the silver holographic mylar streamers from sources linked on the Teres and Galibier websites. This outperforms everything else we've tried but like anything it's not perfect - and we've now found something better.
One of the silver holographic mylar's assets can also become a liability. That metallic layer, when new, gives the belt exceptional "grip" on the platter and motor capstan. Minimal slippage on transients is one reason the material works so well. Unfortunately, that layer can wear over time, leaving a silvery gray residue and allowing performance to deteriorate. The only solution has been a good cleaning and a new belt. No big deal, but if there was a better or more stable belt Paul and I wanted to find it.
I'll spare you a recounting of our many experiments and jump to the good news: thanks to (yet another) brainstorm by my resident genius/partner, we've developed a belt that both performs better and lasts longer. I've held off posting until we were sure, but after 4 months of steady use Paul’s idea is still working perfectly. The only negative is that making this new belt takes an hour or more of work spread over two days, but to us it's worth the effort.
HOW TO MAKE ONE
1. Cut a length of the silver holographic mylar tape sufficient for your TT, plus 3-4" extra.
2. Remove the silver metallic coating off the backside of the mylar. Paul used an acid etching cream popular with stained glass hobbyists to dissolve the metal - safe, quick and easy (use skin and eye protection).
3. Rinse thoroughly under running water, inspect to make sure you got all the silver off, wipe and hang to dry overnight.
4. Splice as normal to make a TT belt, making sure you tape on the OUTSIDE (which will be smoother than the now bare inside).
5. As always, the best splicing technique is to overlap the ends and cut on a 30-40 degree angle. Apply 1” video splicing tape (*not* tabs) across the belt at the *same* angle and trim away the excess.
WHY IT PERFORMS BETTER
Unlike any plain mylar ribbon you could easily buy, the silver holographic streamer has an ultra fine texture embossed on the back side of the *mylar* during manufacturing (*before* the metallic backing is applied). Once the silver layer is applied you can't see this texture, but that's what diffracts light like a million tiny prisms to produce the shimmery rainbow effect. Stripping the metal backing away exposes this texture, which becomes the contact surface of your new belt.
Paul realized this texture must exist and then hypothesized that using it for the working side of a TT belt might provide more “grip” on the platter rim and motor capstan than either plain mylar (which is extremely smooth) or the metallic backing. He was right. This belt produces more lifelike dynamics, both macro- and micro-, than even a brand new silver holographic belt - which heretofore was the best.
WHY IT LASTS LONGER
Removing the metallic backing exposes bare mylar, which is much sturdier than that fine layer of metal. Under normal use and assuming no accidents, one of these belts should last many, many months, perhaps years, while delivering consistent performance. Ours is going into its fifth month with few visible and no audible signs of wear.
Different motor capstan materials might interact with this belt differently, but I urge anyone with a compatible table to give this a try. Like all our favorite little tweaks, we'd find it hard to go back.
A FEW TIPS
1. Clean any silver/grey residue from your old belt off the motor capstan and platter before mounting the new belt.
2. As many of us have learned, the more inelastic the belt, the more critical motor leveling becomes. That is truer than ever with this new belt. Getting the motor set just right is touchy. Take care that your new belt is riding level in the center of the capstan before you start to play. You don't want it sliding up or down and mangling itself.
3. Motor distancing is also more critical than ever. Since this belt will not slip *or* stretch, tension must be perfect. The right amount is just shy of the tension that would tilt the motor off its feet.
4. Depending on your climate, the belt can build up static potential during use. Not enough to spark, but more than enough to attract airborne dust. I dust the belt's inside with my CF brush after each side before stopping the platter.
5. With this or any belt, always start your platter spinning with a helping push. Just pressing the motor's ON button creates lots of belt-wearing friction as the rapidly spinning motor tries to drag that heavy platter up to speed.
It all sounds like a pain, and it is! But the sonic and longevity results are worth the effort.
Cheers,
Doug
One of the silver holographic mylar's assets can also become a liability. That metallic layer, when new, gives the belt exceptional "grip" on the platter and motor capstan. Minimal slippage on transients is one reason the material works so well. Unfortunately, that layer can wear over time, leaving a silvery gray residue and allowing performance to deteriorate. The only solution has been a good cleaning and a new belt. No big deal, but if there was a better or more stable belt Paul and I wanted to find it.
I'll spare you a recounting of our many experiments and jump to the good news: thanks to (yet another) brainstorm by my resident genius/partner, we've developed a belt that both performs better and lasts longer. I've held off posting until we were sure, but after 4 months of steady use Paul’s idea is still working perfectly. The only negative is that making this new belt takes an hour or more of work spread over two days, but to us it's worth the effort.
HOW TO MAKE ONE
1. Cut a length of the silver holographic mylar tape sufficient for your TT, plus 3-4" extra.
2. Remove the silver metallic coating off the backside of the mylar. Paul used an acid etching cream popular with stained glass hobbyists to dissolve the metal - safe, quick and easy (use skin and eye protection).
3. Rinse thoroughly under running water, inspect to make sure you got all the silver off, wipe and hang to dry overnight.
4. Splice as normal to make a TT belt, making sure you tape on the OUTSIDE (which will be smoother than the now bare inside).
5. As always, the best splicing technique is to overlap the ends and cut on a 30-40 degree angle. Apply 1” video splicing tape (*not* tabs) across the belt at the *same* angle and trim away the excess.
WHY IT PERFORMS BETTER
Unlike any plain mylar ribbon you could easily buy, the silver holographic streamer has an ultra fine texture embossed on the back side of the *mylar* during manufacturing (*before* the metallic backing is applied). Once the silver layer is applied you can't see this texture, but that's what diffracts light like a million tiny prisms to produce the shimmery rainbow effect. Stripping the metal backing away exposes this texture, which becomes the contact surface of your new belt.
Paul realized this texture must exist and then hypothesized that using it for the working side of a TT belt might provide more “grip” on the platter rim and motor capstan than either plain mylar (which is extremely smooth) or the metallic backing. He was right. This belt produces more lifelike dynamics, both macro- and micro-, than even a brand new silver holographic belt - which heretofore was the best.
WHY IT LASTS LONGER
Removing the metallic backing exposes bare mylar, which is much sturdier than that fine layer of metal. Under normal use and assuming no accidents, one of these belts should last many, many months, perhaps years, while delivering consistent performance. Ours is going into its fifth month with few visible and no audible signs of wear.
Different motor capstan materials might interact with this belt differently, but I urge anyone with a compatible table to give this a try. Like all our favorite little tweaks, we'd find it hard to go back.
A FEW TIPS
1. Clean any silver/grey residue from your old belt off the motor capstan and platter before mounting the new belt.
2. As many of us have learned, the more inelastic the belt, the more critical motor leveling becomes. That is truer than ever with this new belt. Getting the motor set just right is touchy. Take care that your new belt is riding level in the center of the capstan before you start to play. You don't want it sliding up or down and mangling itself.
3. Motor distancing is also more critical than ever. Since this belt will not slip *or* stretch, tension must be perfect. The right amount is just shy of the tension that would tilt the motor off its feet.
4. Depending on your climate, the belt can build up static potential during use. Not enough to spark, but more than enough to attract airborne dust. I dust the belt's inside with my CF brush after each side before stopping the platter.
5. With this or any belt, always start your platter spinning with a helping push. Just pressing the motor's ON button creates lots of belt-wearing friction as the rapidly spinning motor tries to drag that heavy platter up to speed.
It all sounds like a pain, and it is! But the sonic and longevity results are worth the effort.
Cheers,
Doug
171 responses Add your response
| Post removed |
Alan, I posted a link above, and as I said it looks like McCormicks doesn't sell it anymore. Try this place from earlier in this post it looks like they have it. http://www.fjminc.com/holographic-tape.html Scott |
I don't think that McCormicks has the mylar ribbon anymore here's a link to their site. http://www.mccormicksnet.com/products/home/ I did find this on Amazon https://www.amazon.com/2-Inch-36-Yards-Metallic-Silver-Tape/dp/B0027A74YG I hope this helps. |
Update - as I feared, these individual queries are not exactly the business model Blue Lake had envisioned - same with the other suppliers. I'm going to update the overview on my belts section to reflect this. Also, I'm going to put out a newsletter to my mailing list about a bulk purchase of belts (a one time offer, due to the administrative nightmare which I may regret). Of course, this will be for lengths I've found to work great with Galibier customers: 46-47" circumference, by .002" thick, by .500" wide. Note that Palasr has a delicate touch, and I don't think his 45" circumference recommendation is ideal for most users. I've found a slightly longer belt to be more forgiving in setup, as long as they have the shelf space, of course. If this interests you sign up on the Galibier "About" page. Cheers, Thom @ Galibier |
I just heard back from Dean at Blue Lake Products & they've developed a pricing model for small quantities. I placed the direct link to their new turntable belt page on my Support/Belts page for your permanent reference: http://galibierdesign.com/supt_belts.html. They will sell single belts. The process is labor intensive and large quantities won't yield me any significant discounts, so you're best ordering directly from them. They will manufacture different thicknesses, and with my much wider pulleys, I still intend to experiment with .003" thick material. Cheers, Thom@Galibier |
Hi Doug, Pulley/Sheave/Capstan. Pulley seems to be the term most people can relate to, but I certainly get your point. I can see where (with a narrow pulley), the stiffer .003 Mylar could potentially be problematic. We've gone to 1.360" diameter pulleys (partly for traction purposes), so I'm inclined to revisit this area. Yes, energy transfer is very real, and the woven fabric belts we started with (initially used with our new motor drive) proved to transmit more noise to the platter than the "plastic" belts (Mylar and Kapton). To a certain extent, this belt thickness question moves us along a continuum - from rubber belts, to rigid belts, to rim and direct drive. As you move along this continuum, noise increases and the question we can only answer for ourselves is "where do I stop along this continuum?" (assuming that speed stability and noise are inversely related. Cheers, Thom @ Galibier |
Thom, I also experimented with thicker mylar belts (probably described it somewhere above). On my Teres, a .003" belt slipped badly. As thinner mylar belts did not do this, I attributed the slipping to the thick belt being too rigid to maintain contact as it attempted to make the tight turn around the capstan. For torque transfer, the optimal setup is probably subject to the so-called Capstan equation. Note that this equation assumes that the belt is inelastic and not overly rigid. Both of these considerations have been been (and are still being) discussed and developed by you and other participants on this thread. Of course this does not address noise transfer. As you noted, the requirements of maximizing torque transfer while minimizing noise transfer are largely contradictory. The optimal solution will always vary with the characteristics of the motor and turntable. BTW, neither the Galibier motor nor any other TT motor uses a "pulley". By design, pulleys minimize torque transfer (ideally to zero). Attaching a pulley to a TT motor would result in a platter rotational speed fairly close to zero. Turntables use "powered capstans". Doug |
Hi all, I've been too engaged with the Eiger to look into this. I suspect that these companies thought they were doing a one-off and made belts for a few folks like Palasar. Then, they started receiving a flood of requests and realized that these "ones-ies" were a distraction from their main business. I'll look into quantity pricing in the near future. BTW, you want at least .002" thick. .002" works well, but even as durable as Kapton is (relative to Mylar), I'm curious about .003" thick belts. I'd be tempted to reduce the width to keep the overall mass the same (energy transfer to the platter) - reducing it to perhaps .375" wide. With my wide pulleys (approx. 1.3" in diameter), there's plenty of pulley surface for traction - slippage reduction. I'm not sure how this .125" reduction would work with a skinny pulley - the sort we used to use at Galibier. I'd be tempted to stay at .500" wide if I were running a skinny pulley. AJ has some excellent information in his treatise on belts. Of course, he's looking to optimize what I view as a lossy system - a stretchy belt. Now, if everyone made the same product, it would be a boring world, wouldn't it? Cheers, Thom @ Galibier |
I am very interested in trying Kapton belts. I telephoned A2Z as listed on the Galibier site. They require a $150 setup charge and $800 for 10 belts. This was for seamless 2mil Kapton. They do not do 1mil Kapton. They said making true seamless belts is difficult, not to be confused with welding or splicing, which will leave a feelable join. I telephoned Blue Lake but have not been able to get past the answering machine, so I requested a quote via email. Pulsar mentions his cost at Blue Lake was $50 a belt, but Galibier states they require a large minimum order. I also requested a quote via email from Belt Corp. Would love to hear from Pulsar or anyone else that has had experience ordering seamless Kapton belts. BTW AJ Conti (Basis turntables) has some interesting information regarding his quest for the ultimate belt. He ended up grinding his own rubber flat belts to a thickness of 0.015" and a uniformity of 0.0001". He believes uniformity is the most important speed parameter and thinness is desirable for isolation. Sounds like Kapton should be even better. |
Hi all, Thom here … I haven't logged much forum time in the past 18 months as the Eiger project has been all-consuming. I'll try to hit on a few salient points … Doug: I agree with you about belt traction. Last year's new drive system employs a much higher torque motor (significantly so), and this permitted use of a much wider pulley (approx. 1.3" diameter for lower gearing). This had the effect of significantly increasing belt traction. We're still playing with alternate materials (current one is stainless, but we're playing with a two-piece assembly). Palasr: the missing Blue Lake link was an oversight. I just updated the Drive Belt page you referenced above. Audiotomb: Thanks for the kind words. I realize your post above is from January, and you likely read my newsletter from two weeks ago about the shift back to "plastic" (Mylar/Kapton) belts. One of the benefits of customers like Palasr (who are inclined to experimentation) is that they keep you honest and frequently beat you to the punch (with the Kapton in this case). I have to confess that I fell in love with these woven belts - especially due to their robust construction. I'm a big fan of "robust", but in this case, it was a bit over the top. I found that the increased mass was transmitting noise into even a Stelvio platter. One thing to note about Kapton is that while sonically it's Mylar's twin (far more alike than different), it's much more durable than Mylar. As Palasr pointed out, they're the drive belt of choice for flight recorders in commercial aircraft (the "black boxes"), which is pretty much a "no fail" application. You can still put a "crinkle" in one of these belts if you're not careful when installing them, but apart from that, they show promise of a long life. For anyone contemplating a belt change, take note of any change in thickness from your current belt because it will affect how fast your platter spins. Depending on your turntable's design (adjustability) and the thickness of your current belt, you may have to take this into account. With the shift from the .035" fabric belts back to Mylar/Kapton (.002"), I had to update the support page with a calibration procedure for the controller - a whole page to tell you how to twiddle two screws. This effect on platter speed is counterintuitive, but I can get into the physics in a follow-up post, if anyone is interested. I'll try to catch up on the last few years' posts in this thread as well, and may have more to say on this topic. Cheers, Thom |
Doug, I think the Kapton belts run truer around the pulley, resulting in better overall speed stability. In general, any splice will result in some small runout error causing the belt to slightly oscillate up and down the face of the pulley - the Kapton belts solve this nicely. And while I don't have a table in front of me with various moduli of elasticity, I think Kapton is more rigid than Mylar resulting in tighter coupling, less stretch, less loss. Also, remember that we use totally different controller architectures, as well as pulleys, so YMMV. Finally, they couldn't make spliceless Mylar belts, or I would have compared both materials. Dave4u, Since I'm the one who began exploring the Kapton alternative, I used this company: Blue Lake Products (http://www.bluelakeproducts.com/). While I haven't done any follow up business with them, I also don't know why Thom didn't include them in his list, however knowing Thom, I'm certain he vetted all the suppliers in his list. You can certainly give him a call and ask. |
Palasr, I just noticed that you have sent me a private message. You are very kind! thanks very much for the offer! Can you share which supplier you used for your kapton belt? is it one of the three on http://www.galibierdesign.com ? I think that's the right way to go for me... 50 is a bit pricey but it solves me a headache so no brainer :) |
It appears that finding Mylar belts has become increasingly difficult. I've been using a spliceless Kapton belt (2 mil thickness, 1/2" width, 45" circumference). IMO, much better than a spliced Mylar belt - Kapton is utilized as the drive belt in flight data recorders. Thom Mackris at Galibier has posted a list of suppliers on his website: http://www.galibierdesign.com/supt_belts.html While slightly pricey (around $50 each), they will last a very long time. Good luck! |
Doug Thom is always striving to refine things. what a great guy. Thom built a new arm board mount also this last year. He wanted me to take each upgrade separately to see what it was contributing sonically. The new board made the sound more focused and cut the noise floor on the tone arm down dramatically. wow. Each of the original three have done some great things and I thank this forum for leading me to the Galibier 7 years ago |
Tom, I've read about Thom's upgrades (I'm actually on his mailing list, lol). I know he worked hard to find a better belt material. It sounds like he succeeded, which is great! Glad to see (at least) one of the three original Teres experiment spinoffs is still improving the product and making a go of it. |
I just stumbled upon this thread last week after a bit of a hiatus from audio. I made a new etched belt this past weekend, cleaned platter and motor pulley with alcohol wipes and played around a bit with belt tension to find the highest speed. The improvement this has made just blows me away, as others have said the detail and dynamics are greatly improved along with the pace and rhythm. Huge thanks to Doug and Paul for discovering and sharing this tweak. |
Try here: http://fjminc.com/store/tapes-and-streamers/holographic-tape/ You might want to try cleaning the circumference of the platter as well as the belt itself. For the platter, distilled water with a microfiber cloth works well; for the belt, I use 95% isopropyl alcohol. Allow both to dry thoroughly. You'll get copious amounts of residue from both, especially if the pulley is brass which tends to shed material slowly over time. |
Hi Doug!! This Thread is invaluable. I hope you are still going to read this even though its an old thread. I used a single Mylar belt that Chris Brady sent to me 10 years ago until now! How crazy is that? I think its time for a new belt since my Teres 255 won't keep good timing and the motor is hunting for the proper speed on occasion. Only thing is, I can't for the life of me locate 1/2" Mylar streamers / tape...all the old links to buy this product has expired and Google brings up everything but the proper product. any advice on that? is there a place where i could buy ready "belts"? Best regards and thanks for this great informative thread. |
Tim, I just noticed the question at the end of your last post. The LP I described above (which Paul calls my "la-dee-dah record") is this one: ‘Les Plaisirs de la Renaissance’ (Harmonia Mundi, HMU 963) There are many such recordings on the (French) Harmonia Mundi label. Arthur Salvatore's LP lists include many such in the Early Music catagory. We get ours from ebay, including some from European ebay sites/sellers. Prices are usually low (not a big market) and vinyl condition is usually perfect or nearly so. |
>>For clarity, I didn't intend to suggest that a modern oboe lacks harmonics. Sorry if I was unclear. To my ears, more of its energy focuses on the fundamental COMPARED to a baroque oboe, which has a different balance between fundamental and overtones - one that favors the latter.<< So a guy with perfect pitch beams out of the future and walks into the Zimmerman cafe and asks the oboist: "what the heck are you playing?". Maybe that's why they started writing down the notes. (small humor) As a physical object any individual instrument, regardless of historical period, will show differences in harmonics to some degree from other instruments. Given that, presumably both modern and baroque oboes can each be tune with one another. I had in mind that the largest determiner of the relative harmonic complexity thrown off for any given note was the performer rather than the instrument and that a modern oboe and oboist are no less capable of such than ones from some other period. >>I have some LPs featuring solo counter-tenor and alto recorder performing in the hardest stone space imaginable. These records bring 99% of all systems to their knees.<< Every good boy does fine and every good system loves a test. Would you kindly share a title or catalog number for a few of these? Thanks. |
Hi Pani, R2R tape provides a less elastic, less slippage-prone coupling than silk thread. The drive belt described in this thread simply goes further in that same direction... much further. Therefore, whatever you heard from R2R tape you'd hear even more of with the modded holo belt... much more. Your experiment provided data. Let's think about what you learned and its implications. Improving your motor-platter linkage raised the noise floor. Ask yourself, where did this additional noise come from? The overwhelming likelihood is that it comes from the motor and that the improved coupling provided by the R2R tape transferred more of it into the platter (which is a good drive belt's job). All motors are noise sources and I'm afraid yours is suspect. I've read reports over the years of PV owners who improved their motors and heard a major improvement. The unfortunate but inescapable conclusion is that PV uses silk thread because a slippy (or elastic) coupling helps isolate the platter from a noisy motor. Your experiment certainly seems to confirm this. IMO it's likely that upgrading your motor will be necessary before you can enjoy the sonic benefits of a tighter motor-platter coupling without experiencing additional noise. * As noted in my OP, sources for the holo tape can be found on the Teres and Galibier websites. I don't know of any others. *** Tim, Have you also sat next to baroque oboists? My distinction was meant only as a comparison between modern and baroque instruments. If you've only sat next to one type or the other then any observations would be in a vacuum and would neither affirm nor contradict the comparison. For clarity, I didn't intend to suggest that a modern oboe lacks harmonics. Sorry if I was unclear. To my ears, more of its energy focuses on the fundamental COMPARED to a baroque oboe, which has a different balance between fundamental and overtones - one that favors the latter. Neither is better or worse, they were designed for different situations and respond accordingly. We'll have to agree to disagree on the ability of different genres to reveal system characteristics, at least at the margins. I agree that a system which can reproduce very difficult acoustic music really well will do the same for (say) hip-hop, provided one is willing to tolerate any flaws and artifacts in the recording being revealed for what they are. The converse is not true. I've heard hundreds of systems that hip and hop really well but sound ghastly when asked to reproduce challenging acoustic instruments. When the source music has been sent through dozens of electronic steps which distort the signal *by design*, a little playback distortion may go unnoticed. OTOH, when the source music has been sent through the minimally necessary electronic steps and each of those was chosen to distort the signal *as little as possible*, playback distortions are more likely to be audible... at least to my hip- and hop-less ears. I have some LPs featuring solo counter-tenor and alto recorder performing in the hardest stone space imaginable. These records bring 99% of all systems to their knees. People literally leave the room holding their ears because it can sound like fingernails-on-slate. It's not the records' fault however, it's the inability of multiple components throughout the playback chain to cope with densely packed, high amplitude harmonics. I've heard these LPs produced "almost" right just once or twice. No recording of mixed, manipulated and amplified music is anywhere near so demanding. |
>>The timbre of a Baroque oboe is more complex than its modern counterpart and that complexity is difficult to reproduce accurately.<< I wholeheartedly concur about the challenges in reproducing complex harmonics and the importance of proper platter speed yet remain doubtful about the above claim. Yes, between Baroque and modern oboes there are different woods, different keys, different reed constructions, different impositions on the musician, consistency of instrument construction, etc. etc. yet timeline would seem to have little impact on musician's note bending abilities. Doesn't the modern instrument also have a broader range? Not being an oboist I cannot speak with authority, but having sat next to enough of them I've heard no lack of harmonic complexity from modern instruments, live or recorded. Nonetheless, your point is quite make-able without the appeal to specific musical preferences. A system that sounds ghastly on hip is likely as ghastly on (heaven forfend) hip-hop. Cheers. |
Hi Doug, for the past few months I am desperately looking to upgrade the drive system of my Verdier. It was originally supplied with a silk thread which was okay but a friend of mine suggested I try 1/4 inch reel to reel tape. The tape immediately gave me the immediacy and dynamics that was somewhat lacking with the thread but the tape also increased the noise floor and reduced instrument seperation, also took away some of the body from the instruments. So, I had to go back to the thread. However it gave me the confidence that the thing to improve with the Verdier is the drive system. I would like to try out your recipe but I dont know where to source the silver holographic mylar tape from. I am at Singapore. I will be really grateful if you could share your email ID with me or drop me a test mail at dr.basss@gmail.com so that I could take some guidance from you to settle my TT drive system. |
Hi Don, Thanks for reviving this thread from the depths of time... well, 2011. You must have tweaked your Scout quite a bit to use a belt like this... impressive. Like you, we've always used natural instrument recordings to test any system or component. The pre-19th C. instruments one typically gets on labels like Telefunken are the sternest tests of all. Classical and Baroque instruments favored complex harmonic overtones more than their modern counterparts, which emphasize the fundamental in order to fill large, modern concert halls. The timbre of a Baroque oboe is more complex than its modern counterpart and that complexity is difficult to reproduce accurately. Complex harmonics challenge every aspect of a system but none more so than a TT, which can so easily generate distortions in the time domain. Even if a TT maintains perfect average speed, variations lasting mere thousandths of a second (which fall below the resolution of strobe discs, laser pointers and such) will distort complex harmonics enough to drive sensitive listeners out of the room. Original instrument recordings sound ghastly in many systems. Some listeners just blame the recording and move on, happily unaware of just how weak their systems actually are. Great job persevering, glad you found a way to enjoy Mr. Haydn. |
Hi Doug, Thank you so very much for your upgraded mylar belt. I have a heavily tweaked VPI Scout (which I love), but there was a recording which gave me fits. Joseph Haydn Streichquartette on Telefunken, which I am convinced was recorded to drive me insane, was easily sorted after using the belt as you've described. You and Paul are to be commended. Thanks a thousand times. Don |
George a, Thanks for that link. Splicing the belt cleanly and with the two ends precisely aligned is certainly the most difficult aspect of this. Mylar tape has no forgiveness so close doesn't count, the splice has to be perfect. I've ruined more than one... I looked into companies like that one but none had the right material (holographically textured mylar tape but WITHOUT the silver reflective layer). So we end up buying the finished tape and stripping off the silver layer before splicing. What we do for love... :) *** Thanks, Mike. Paul's not only a science/engineering wiz, he's a mean chef too. Am I livin' lucky or what? :) |
While I don't use mylar belts I was googling and found this link regarding ultrasonically sealed mylar belts. Maybe it will be of interest. mylar belts |
Hi Mike. Acetone will dissolve cyanoacrylate adhesives (aka 'Super Glue'). Work with the motor upside-down to keep residue from flowing down the shaft into the bearings. I use Lok-tite. Super Glue seems like overkill to me. I haven't found anyone to make a replacement capstan but perhaps that's because I haven't looked. ;) I presume any machine shop could do it. AFAIK all they'd need would be a lathe, a drill press and a length of bar stock cut from the material of your choice. A local tech school or high school shop might enjoy a little project. |
Hello Doug was hopping you are others may have an answer to your long ago last post. My redpoints drive pulley has worn due to many hours of use. The brass make up has worn in to the friction and sliping of the mylar belt. Im still able to enjoy the TT but sure would like to have something on hand ready when the time comes. The pulley is super glued on so getting the original off will be a task in its self. Hopping all is going well Mike |
Jp11801, Glad another listener is enjoying the improvement from this little tweak. *** Following up on the capstan topic, Palasr was kind enough to mail me four capstans he's used on his Gavia. This was so I could try one with straight vertical sides, rather than the mildly convex shape supplied by Teres. Three of the four were too large in diameter for the range of my motor controller. The stock Galibier capstan worked however, so we A/B'd with our Teres capstan. On our table, the Teres capstan was the winner, slightly less smearing and better micro-dynamics. My hypothesis is that the brass Galibier capstan's smooth finish may allow more slippage than the slightly (intentionally) coarse finish of the Teres capstan, which is made of some non-metallic material that I can't identify. Kudos to Chris for supplying a great performing material, and a suggestion to Thom and Galibier owners that a less polished capstan might further improve performance. Best of all (I think) would be a straight-sided capstan with the set screw mounting used by Galibier, but made of the material used by Teres. Any takers? |
Therefore the motor has to be able to handle the additional strain due to this tension, meaning more torque will probably be needed. I agree in general, however I don't find this to be entirely true with the Maxon motor that is supplied with my Galibier. I tension the mylar pretty high, probably more than most other Galibier\mylar users. The stock motor works just fine at speed where torque is not as much of an issue, but I always give the platter a push to start and I don't stop the motor anymore to change records. Starting the platter rotation is probably when the torque matters most with a belt drive. And there will also be the increased sideways pull on its bearings. True. However, the Maxon motor side load spec is much higher than I could ever get with the tension on the mylar. I've tried this and the motor pod tips before reaching the kind of strain that would approach the side load. I don't have a way to measure what the strain is at the tipping point but it does take a fair amount of force to deflect the belt. The motor/platter coupling one can achieve with the mylar is surprising. As Doug points out, the motor needs to be very quiet because this kind of coupling will transfer excess noise to a platter. |
The rsponse I got on DIY Audio was that these things are probably custome manufactured for the TT designers and not stocked somewhere. There was also another interesting observation that I feel should be passed on. The mylar belt will definitely be tensioned more than a rubber O ring or thread. Therefore the motor has to be able to handle the additional strain due to this tension, meaning more torque will probably be needed. And there will also be the increased sideways pull on its bearings. Bob |