Cartier450, What kind of pointers did you use? |
I have had my 1.7's for a month now. They were initially too bright, even in a heavy carpeted room, C-J amplification and with vinyl as a source. The cure, in order of impact:
1. 1 Ohm Pathaudio resistors (significantly better than both the supplied ones and the Mills).
2. Quantum SR20 fuses (inserted with the 20 in the upwards direction). Much better than the supplied fuses and, in my view, better than the Hi-Fi tuning fuses.
3. pointers under the speakers (have not tried speaker stands)
I'm in heaven! I no longer worry about break-up time or potentially expensive mods, I just enjoy the music.
|
I listened to the Revels again with a CD by the Jayhawks that I know quite well. I decided that the Revels are not that great after all. Thery definitely have the bass and weight but they do lack the last bit of detail and resoluton that I hear with my setup. On my setup I am able to hear separate harmonizing vocals that did not come through on the Revels.
I have an Audiospace CD player and the Revels were hooked up to a McIntosh CD player - do not know which one. Maybe that has some thing to do with it. |
People are saying you can't bi-wire the 1.7....this means NO jumpers, right?
That's why I asked.
If I had a look at the crossover schematic for the 1.7 it would be easier to decide if you could bi-wire and how much butchering you'd have to do.
Try the Revel's against the 20.1s and you may change your preference....and get to keep your Krells. Or maybe swap the Krells out for top Bryston or Pass.... |
I think that we have already talked about tweeters in and out and front to back.
You can change out the metal jumper. I replaced mine with a solid copper wire. I think that it makes the sound a little bit more detailed. Not sure how bid a deal that really is in my setup.
I pulled the back plates off and it looks like you cannot simply unscrew the wires like is possible on the 1.2's to bypass the fuse. I closed mine back up and decided that I would think about that before I messed with it.
The big thing is that I found a pair of Mye stands on Audiogon.
They make a noticeable sonic improvement. Everything is more tight. The bass has a little bit more weight. The sound in general is a bit more detailed. Overall, this makes the 1.7's sound more musical.
Having said that my local audio store has a set of Mark Levinson amps hooked up to Revel speakers (the $20K ones) That sound is better than my Krell and 1.7's (of course at a very steep price increase!). |
No jumpers like I'm accustomed to on my 1.6s? |
How would one go about biwriing, or better yet, biamping 1.7s? I thought it was "not possible."
-Paul |
Yeah, Josh, I was being a stinker. The company I worked for and Vishay had a couple million dollar disagreement, so I'm not big on Vishay products.....
Now, about those awful jumpers.
The ones on my 1.6s are MAGNETIC, which as near as I can tell means steel.
I'm making replacements from 6ga copper wire, and whittled into shape.
First pair done and installed.
Does the 1.7 STILL use this jumper type? What have others done? Please don't suggest biwire....unless you can also tell me how to rid myself of those banana plugs, too.
sheesh. |
Sure. The idea here is to use the rheostat to zero in on a figure, and then replace it with a non-inductive fixed resistor. I'm assuming that the series inductance won't make enough of a difference in the frequency response to render the results useless, but without running the numbers (or trying it) I can't be absolutely sure of that.
Wslam, a lot of people recommend the Duelund resistors. Whether they actually make an audible improvement over run-of-the-mill wirewounds, I don't know. |
Josh,
Doesn't a wirewound rheostat have enough inductance to change things.....and not necessarily for the better? |
Is this kind of resistor good for audio purpose?
Vishay RWM8X450R475BO50E1
wirewound,vitreous enamel,12W,0.47 ohm |
One thing you can do is get a wirewound rheostat and use it to adjust the tweeter level to your liking, then remove the rheostat, measure the resistance with an ohmeter, and buy high quality fixed resistors to match. |
try the .75 to me its the bees knees
Johnnyr |
Someone needs to come out with an adjustable resistor, audiophile quality, for use with the 1.7! |
Sure? Why not a pair of 1 1/2 ohm in parallel....or a pair of 1 ohm? Many practical combinations exist to put less than 1ohm in series w/the tweeter.
Just think about the resistor in this fashion:
If the driver is 4 ohms, and you put 1 ohm in series with it, roughly 20% of the power will go away...as heat, while the driver gets less power and doesn't play as loud.
You could put 0.1ohm in series and still get an effect, though the 2%+ of power now being dissipated by the resistor may not make an audible difference. |
Has anyone experimented with resistors of a smaller value than the one that came with the 1.7? I find the stock resistors cutting just a tad too much... |
Davide256... Magnepan agrees with you that the brightness is a source issue. They say that because many popular speakers roll off highs recordings are mastered with boosted highs. They claim that the Maggie is flat without the resistor, but that the resistor makes them more compatable with the typical recording. |
I have had my pair of 1.7's since about April. Owned MG1B's and MGIIIA's for a long time before, listened and liked the MG1.6's but not enough to pull out my wallet for the difference.
The 1.7's have that critical quality for bass realism, weight that is satisfying to a tuba player and low mid range tonal accuracy. The 1.7's on initial listen caused me the same reaction as the IIIA ribbon tweeter, a little bright so used the 1ohm resistor. Over a few months I realized the brightness was a source issue, that my Linn Genki and Oppo 971HD weren't handling the highs musically, into my DAC creating listening fatigue. I now use my PC with an HRT Music Streamer II USB DAC and Foobar2000 as a music player to feed a CJ PV10A and Musical Concepts modded Hafler. The 1 ohm resistor is out, just the stock jumper, sounds gorgeous with 24/96 tracks and the 20 bit HDCD RR recordings that DBPoweramp allows me to decode and rip.
As to tweaks to make your sound better
1) get idle cone speakers out of the room unless they are small. Idle cone speakers resonate and collapse sound stage... good Linn dealers can demonstrate.
2) consider the mye stands or any other like alternative the will brace top and bottom of the panel and tie solidly into the floor. A tall panel speaker like the MG 1.7 with foot stands producing music is like a car engine flopping around on broken motor mounts. It will damp/blur your transient peaks if you leave the panel free to move.
I don't recommend leaving out the fuses... it only takes 1 power hit to make your tweeters toast... been there. Fuses and jumper substitution doesn't have a science to it but won't break the piggy bank either.
Enjoy, if yours sound bright/fatiguing as mine did at first look very hard look at your source equipment |
Has anyone tried using the Walker hi definition links
with the 1.7? I am planning on getting the new maggies
soon and have a set of links to use. other than the
difficulties with using spade to banana adapters, what
else could present a problem? |
Josh358... The resistor "shelf effect" counteracts the shelf effect which exists when no resistor is used due to the greater sensitivity of the tweeter. The resistor is simply in series with the signal feed to the tweeter section of the crossover.
You don't have to use a resistor, and if you do you can pick the value. That's nice of Magnapan. |
I'm not sure when they started shipping the tweeter resistor. I confess I'm one of those who's reluctant to use it, because I don't like the shelf effect on the frequency response. This may not apply to the 1.7, I'm not even sure where it's wired/what the crossover points are! But it seems to me that some kind of adjustment is necessary in any wide dispersion speaker, since room acoustics are going to change the HF balance and not everyone has the option of tuning their listening room. |
Good for you, Josh.
Try 'em all 4 ways for that matter....tweeter in / out and Mylar front/back.
I wonder if Magnepan started shipping with the tweeter resistor at about the same time as they flipped 'em to pole piece back?
I've tried absolute phase swapping and hear little difference on MOST material.
My sub, however, appreciated the phase switch being flipped after I rotated the panels.....Makes perfect sense. |
The reluctance people show about using a resistor for the tweeter is amusing. In general, tweeters are more sensitive than woofers and all crossover networks include a "tweeter padding resistor" to achieve balance. Because Magnepan makes its own tweeter and woofer they are almost balanced without a resistor. Magnepan gives the user the choice of value...1.0 to 1.5 ohms is typical. Many crossovers run 2.5 to 3.5 ohms. |
The Mye stand isn't quite an option for me as I live in HK. They charge $7xx just for SHIPPING alone to HK... |
WSlam.
Just keep any drunks from knocking them over.
On a Serious note, check out MYE stands. They have a following and the claims are reasonable.
Also, Magnepan is a DIY dream speaker. Crossover? Stands? Reframe? all have followers.
I recently rotated my panels in place. I now listen to the Pole Piece side, not the mylar as Magnepan would have you do. Read my other posts for a description / rave.
That being said, a complete reframe in WOOD is in order. Wood absorbs the vibration which the MDF rejects.
I'm taking a woodshop class right now, and next year at this time will be well under way in my 'project'. Some nice Sapele frames and junk out the MDF. |
Kehonka, I read somewhere that Wendell Diller of Magenpan suggested try them both tweeter in and tweeter out. He said that a majority of people prefer them tweeter in, but some like them tweeter out. It may depend on your room.
Also, to those who are comparing mylar front/mylar back -- remember to flip polarity when you do, otherwise the difference in polarity can confuse the comparison. As I recall, Magnepan switched to mylar front to get a brighter sound, it was mentioned in I think TAS when they first did it years ago. |
I just took delivery of mine today!
My first Planar! In total shock! I have listened to Maggies dozens of times at dealer's showroom but they never impressed me. In my room, a familiar setup, I thought they are affordable enough even as an experiment, and boy am I just blown away!
Are you guys using anything like spikes etc underneath the stands? They do seem somewhat flimsy.
Also, may I ask what your serial numbers are? I am surprised that mine are 100002-1 and 100002-2. Don't tell me they START at 10001! |
A dealer return sold as new....The shipping box was really beat up . Did contact Magnepan. In Minn. They would not comment but told me to correct the the sties which were mis-alligned and could not have been shipped that way. It hurts but they are wonderful instruments. My electrostatics (which had built in amps)gave out and the repair process in NYC was a night mare. Did not listen to muic for a year so when the the opportunity came up I jumped at the 1.7's. I am not sorry, they are wonderful and I know the Magnepan will stand behind them.BUT THEY WERE NOT NEW At least two weeks in limbo as I had Magnepan check the serial numbers. Sorry for the wHining. Too many pirates out there. Feel like a character in GRAVITY'S RAINBOW- all paranoia is justified. |
Utley,
You may want to try 'em all 4 ways........
Tweeters can go in or out....with a simple side-to-side swap.
Than you can 'rotate' them in place and do it again.
Personally? Not that it matters to you or your situation, I find tweeters IN and mylar back to be my ticket. This is opposite of Magnepan recommendation.
When I rotated my 1.6s, the entire presentation improved.
No matter what, I urge you to ignore the directions and just try the other possible orientations. I agree that I don't particularly like seeing the plug in panel or wires sticking 'out', but the sound is eyes closed so much better that I simply will ignore the visual, until I can do a reframe.
Any chance your panels were simply mis-packed? What are you suspecting? A dealer return sold to you as new? |
Crom Thanks. That pink sheet was not inside the plastic bag or stapled to it that contained: plates screws fuses etc. Now I do not feel so delusional but now slightly paranoid as the alumum frames(sties) on the tweeter sides were raised above the horizonal. The speakers perform beautifully but I am sick about it. They were probably repackaged now that the pink slip is missing, But there is nothing to be done...am upset as it confirms my suspicions and spent an anxious two weeks listening for defects. . They were offered to me with only a one month wait. Oh man - this is a downer |
There is a pink piece of paper entitled "Magneplanar 1.7 Quick Step-Up Instructions" (looks like typo and should be set-up) stapled along with Magneplanar Loudspeakers plates to the clear plastic that contains the 1.7 owners manual. The instructions read:
"The 1.7 has exceptional phase characteristics that are accomplished without the use of compensation networks. To realize the optimum phasing, the 1.7 should be angled inward to be on-axis with the listener. (Do not place parallel to the front wall.)
In most rooms, we have achieved the best imaging with the tweeters placed on the inside.
The frequency balance should be smooth for rooms with a modest amount of damping. The enclosed resistor should be used for under-damped rooms." |
Do not take for a reading teacher. But the Mag 1.7 manual does notspecifically recommend one tweeter position(in or out) or the other. It does recommend ' tweeter out' on the 1.6's. I have read the print vesion that accompanies the 1.7 and the on line manual which are exactly the same. I have found that leaving the tweether 'out' fit the geometry of my room. I suspect the magnetic side is smoother but will not risk tripping on the wires and the frontal 'normal view ' gives visual pleasure. |
I read the 1.7 manual on the magnepan website. Tweeters in! you bet!
Mylar front is how they come.....which puts the connection panel in back, safely out of tripping range and sight.
I'd try it both ways....ALL 4, actually, since you can either do a L/R swap or a simply rotation-in-place.
That give 4 logical ways to place 'em....any of which may yield the best results in any given room. |
Mylar front, Tweeters in is Magnepan suggested placement on 1.7's. |
I do want to mention a "tweak" that is not specific to Magnepan that has worked incredibly well. I ordered 4' x 2' x 2" sound absorption panels. I place one on each side of my audio system (which sits between the two speakers). I find the best set up when the two panels, one on the right and one on the left, are turn at a 45 degree angle facing the listener.
There is an immediate increase in clarity due to the reduction of reflections off of the audio equipment rack. The music is much more focused and instruments are more easily located in space (although, I have still not gotten the 3D effect of musicians spread out behind the speakers to any major degree).
I have been incredibly lazy and not finished off my new listening area, as yet. Have to paint the room and remove a rather large rear projection TV out of the space. When I have it set up, I will try once again with the reversed positioning.
One final note, I believe the Magnepans continue to get better over time. I have had them for about 5 months and for the first time the other evening, I heard a very familiar Rodrigo Y Gabriela CD but with a difference. For the first time the two guitars in several of the selections seemed to be floating behind the speakers about 3-4 feet. Most of the time, I get very realistic and natural sounding instruments without much depth. This was spooky real and what keeps me "tweaking" my system.
Just ordered XLR cables from BetterCables to connect my Wyred 4 Sound to my Bada Preamp. This is my first test of XLR cables vs. RCA and I didn't want to spend too much money if it wasn't going to make a difference. We'll see. |
For purposes of a test, you can ignore the directions. Try any and all of the 4 logical ways they can be arranged.
1. mylar to listener, tweeters out (per directions)
2. Swap 'em L/R for mylar to listener, tweeters IN.
3. Rotate in place: results in mylar away, tweeters out
4. Swap em back L/R for tweeters IN and mylar away from listener.
#1 is Magnepan preferred.
#4 is the way I have my panels.
I'll go with whatever YOU prefer, in your system! It's too easy NOT to try, don't you think?
My original MG-1s were mylar away. I am told that sometime in the '90s, Magnepan decided to face the mylar TO the listener.
This will be the cheapest tweak you EVER try. Even removing the fuse will cost a few grams of solder and the electricity to heat up your soldering iron.
OH, each swap will require a little effort to optimize. When I did the rotate, they fell so naturally into place I have yet to mess with them again. But, I've been setting up panels for a long time and can get 'em pretty close to perfect in pretty good time. Perfect setup? takes longer. |
Magfan,
I did not rotate the speakers, but did the left right swap. The original owners guide from magnepan wanted the tweeters to the outside. Is that still what they recomend? |
Keyonka,
When you put your tweeters 'in', did you rotate the panel in place or do a L/R swap?
I did the rotate in place, the tweeters are now 'in' and I am listening to the pole piece side, NOT the mylar. Big change for the better! |
just read tweaking magnepans and just wanted to briefly describe my experince. I have owned a pair of 1.6 qrs for about 12 years and the two tweaks that worked in my room are first: the tweeters are on the inside not the outside. I have tried many times to reverse them, but there is a huge improvement by placing the tweeters to the inside. second,I do not use any jumpers,but bi-wire them with reasonably good speaker cables.I love the sound and have not found a speaker I like better{yet}. |
Glad you at least gave the pole piece forward a try. Cheap and easy.
Sorry you didn't have a positive experience. Mine will stay rotated and be installed that way sometime in '11, when I can build new hardwood frames. |
OK, here is the update on turning the Magnepans around . . . no difference! I couldn't hear any difference after a week of turning the speakers away from the listening position. In fact, I felt they were slightly better detailed in their proper position but I doubt I would be able to pick out front or back in a double-blind test.
Took off the back speaker connection panel to investigate the wiring. Was a little surprised how cheap the panel was and the wiring didn't look like anything special. It looks very easy to bypass the fuse and jumper. Need to find my old soldering gun or get a new one.
Also I am looking for some new copper speaker connectors to replace the standard issue. I like solid copper speaker connectors so you don't have copper wiring to brass/gold speaker connectors to copper wiring. I am going to try to find some that will replace the existing ones without modifying the back plate.
By the way, I agree with Utley1 that the speakers sound so realistic and musical and not to be overly concerned about the modifications. I will complete these minor modifications and then sit back for the next couple of years and enjoy the music! |
I have had these remarkable speakers a month now.They have quite mellowed out. The dynamics depth and speed astonish me with certain recordings. (and I am using 1980's equipment Crown) You do not have drive yourself crazy. They really are as good as the Absolute Sound review declares. I will be buying a new amp and pre-amp but even that is not a neccessity. Moving the tweeters in or out simply reveals different things about the recordings one is listening to. Each view is valid. These speakers have made very happy and brings joy every day. There is just so much great music. |
I am still grapling with the Mapleshade jumpers. Makes rock music jump compared to the standard jumpers provided by Magnepan but I do find putting the Mapleshade jumpers on the Maggies seems to make the music just a tad more harsh. This was my opinion of the Mapleshade digital cable - initially it sounded like it gave life to the music, but ultimately I had to remove it because it became too irritating.
Can't wait to bypass the jumpers AND the fuse. I have to order a soldering iron and solder (I assume that the connections are soldered). Anyone have suggestions as to brand and type of solder?
I am in the process of moving furniture and creating a significant space in my basement for my system which is currenty in my masterbedroom. I haven't officialy reversed the speakers for serious listening other than to listen behind the speakers. Seems to have less treble behind the speakers but I wasn't doing critical listening.
You have convinced me to give it a try tonight. I can just hear my wife's comments when she sees the speakers turned around. She already thinks I am crazy . . . |
What kind of JUMPERS? Mine are untouched since purchase and are daily in my sight since rotating the panels.
Did you try the rotate yet? With the (positive) effects I noted, I heartily recommend that move. Mine are NEVER going back and when I reframe to all-wood, that's the way they will be mounted.
You tell ME what you hear, so I don't bias you in advance of 'test'. |
Crom
Thanks for the reminder about the jumpers. I dug through my stuff and switched out the Magnepan jumpers and replaced them with the Mapleshade jumpers (way oversold on the Mapleshade records site, but they do sound better than the standard Magnepan jumpers.)
The funny result was that it makes 44.1 music sound better, more slam, but now the diffence between the 44.1 kHz and 96 kHz recording is not as great as it was before. Part of me thinks that they jumpers somehow exaggerate the leading edge of the sound making regular CD sound more exciting. Could also be that I am dreaming!
Recorded CD does really sound better, even more detail and I am getting close to the slam that you get from really good traditional speakers which Magnepan usually lacks.
I don't know if I am going to have the time in the next 30 days, but I am really looking forward to bypassing the jumper and fuse. I have to believe that it will sound better without all the jumpers and fuse in the signal path. |
Utley, I don't have any experience with organ music. |
Ron- Many thanks....will try to find a dealer in NYC.. |
I am driving my Magnepan 1.7s with a Bada MA-3MKII hybrid preamp and Bada MA-100MKII amp (about 200 to 250 watts into 4 ohms) connected to a Wyred 4 Sound DAC1 and Netgear 9150 music server. Wiring is Xindak.
The Bada combo is a fantastic value for the money and drives the Magnepans to whatever volume levels are needed. Great bass and, overall, laid back presentation with detail. The Wyred 4 Sound DAC1 provides incredible detail and seems to mate well with the Magnepans.
I just found my jumpers and replaced the Magnepan jumpers. We'll see if that makes any difference. |
Crom: May I ask if you can get to the 'near bottom octaves' of an organ with that amp? |
Thanks Crom....Doing a little gig of my own with stands. Bought a dozen 4 pound 100% pure zinc ingots took them to a metal workshop, had them bore a3/4" inch wedge to fit the Mag stands. I call them Maggie's slippers. Cost less than a $100 to do. Wouldn't compare it to the MYE but those 'slipper' stands a rock solid and I think they make a plausible improvement in sound. but that is subjective. That is 16 pounds to speakers stands plus an additional 8 pounds of bracing at the joint. |
