Tube recommendations

Hello Rich, ECC81 = ECC801s = 12at7 = 12at7WA 
I can recommend the original Military Telefunken ecc801s made in the 60’s, this is clearly one the the best tubes of this type and extremely rare today. This is what i’ve been using with a great result with my tube amp. I bought mine (NOS) from The Tube Musseum NYC, those tubes are very expensive. Beware of the fake Telefunken tubes from ebay sellers!

Then for a few years i’ve been looking for something cheaper, but also outstanding quality. After a years of my research i found the Sylvania GOLD BRAND 12at7WA with gold pins (NOS) and was happy about it. Those tubes are also from the 60’s, great tubes and one of the best US made tubes of this type.

You can also looks for the vintage RCA tubes, but it was too late for me because i sold my tube amp, but still have some nice tubes.

One of the most interesting and extremely rare tubes are Japanese Matsushita 12AT7WA made in the 60’s (still have NOS quad). You can find a little info about those tubes on audioasylum forum in tubeasylum section whre all the tube freaks are posting, look for "bumby b" posts. The usability of that forum is awful !!! So i think it would be better if i will just post quites here to spread the lights.

***This is what i have in my notes saved from tubeasylum forum, this is all about Japanese Matsushita 12AT7WA Military Grade with gold pins:

Matsushita 12at7WA GOLD...the round logo & seamed top is a dead giveaway. Military contract, I’d bet, based on the gold pins & 3 micas. The top is domed and has gold pins. Is this a high-end japan design.

Interesting tube!

I believe they call that a "pinched waist", and it was done to promote mechanical stability

of the internals for low microphonics. I’ve never seen a Japan tube like that, but I know that

Amperex made some PQ preamp tubes with pinched waists that go for serious $$$.

Really a nice looking tube, though! Quad mica, copper posts, and the getter is attached

at two points vs. the normal one. I’d bet that you could knock on that tube with a pencil

and not hear a thing.

I’ve noticed that tubes from 1958 and earlier have a bigger pinch then tubes from around 1960. Personally. I haven’t seen tubes after 1960 with a pinched waist.

The most well known pinched waist tubes are from Philips Heerlen and Valvo Hamburg. They were made mid to end 50s and have the glass pinched around the top mica spacer. I assume this was done to fight microphony.

They were only produced for a few years AFAIK and the technique was later abandoned by tube manufacturers.

I had always thought the pinching was to clamp the micas in tighter to reduce mechanical vibration of the structure and therefore microphonics.If so, what makes the pinched waist worth making?

Pinched waist tubes have an indented ring around the middle portion of the glass tube. They’re quite rare, and thus quite expensive. I have a single from Holland I need to pair up.

They made a positively HUGE difference in a preamps!

@chakster  - thanks for the info. So could I replace my 3 tubes with Telefunken ECC801s or would I need to replace exact type for type?

You can replace all ECC81 tubes with ECC801s or 12AT7 or 12AT7WA (they are all one type)
But all 3 must be one type like at matched trio 

Oh right. So what's the significance of the numbers 81, 83 & 88?

Never used ECC83 or ECC88, these are different type of tubes than ECC81, they are NOT interchargable and this is all you need to know. 

Dear @infection : """  As I'm new to tubes which tubes would you recommend to be a significant upgrade? """

Why so fast did you decided to change the original tubes?, this is as when you bougth a cartridge and one month latter you want to up-grade it or change it. Something must be wrong down there phono stage.

R.

No rush...I just thought I'd inquire for future reference.

I suggest you call Andy at Vintage Tube Services. He can help you with tube selection

While I'm guilty of tube rolling and have favorites, without knowing the pre you have and the type of sound you prefer any advice I (or any of us) could give would be a shot in the dark.  So what pre do you have?  And what change in sound are you looking for?  If you call Andy at VTS, he can certainly help you, but you'll need to answer those questions for him  as well.

@jperry @rcprince Thanks for the info. I'll contact him.

I currently have an Octave HP700. 
I'm looking for a lower noise floor & increased detail. 
Just to reiterate this concerns the phono stage module. 

I’m looking for a lower noise floor & increased detail.

It’s all about vintage Telefunken Military Tubes from the 50s, 60s, 70s
My target was exactly the same when i upgraded, i have upgraded quickly and there was no reason to wait, it was huge upgrade over the stock modern tubes.

You have to understand that NONE of the manufacturer of the modern amps, preamps, phono stages will supply you their gear with NOS vintage tubes, some of them are impossible to find even for tube dealers. And each NOS tube must be selected, cheched by the seller and compiled into a matched pairs, quads etc. This is too complicated (another reason why they are expensive).

You can’t go wrong with the genuine Telefunken tubes in NOS condition, everyone will tell you this, but there are many other brands in UK, USA, Japan to compete with German Telefunkens.

I was happy with Sylvania Gold Brand 12at7WA with gold pins (made in USA) and the price was much lower than Telefunken, the sound was warmer and not as much detailed as the Telefunken tubes.

All i have said applied to the ECC81 / 12AT7 types

Modern amp with great NOS vintage tubes compared to the same modern amp with modern tubes is completely different thing! The only problem is the cost of that old NOS tubes (selected by honest dealer). 

@chakster Thanks. Yes I've noticed they can cost about $500 each.
I'll speak with Andy, I suspect he can suggest some excellent cheaper alternatives.

rca 12at7wa triple mica

InfectionThe ECC83 tube is the same as 12ax7 tube. I recommrnd telefunken 12ax7's if you can find them . Huge upgrade over sto ck sovi et ecc83's which came with my phono stage.Are you sure the third tube is Ecc88 or is it E88cc?the ECC88 is a 6922 tube type. Same here i recommend tekefunken or my favorite,  Siemens.

@tzh21y Thanks for the suggestion. 

@nsp - the number on the tube is 6H23 & underneath that is 9202.

@nsp - it's a Voskhod 6H23N.

+1 Telefunken NOS or you could go modern Gold Lions (honestly they can be just as good). Both will fit your application (low noise & detail).

6H23 is a Russian tube type but a 6992 can be substituted. These tubes are very revealing and have an extended top-end. 
  With a phonostage it's important to get tubes that are low-noise and tested for microphonics. The 6992 is a tube that can become microphonic.

It seems as though the 
Voskhod 6H23 is a very in-demand tube. I would roll the other tubes and keep this one for now.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/schiit-lyr-the-tube-rolling-thread.549508/page-559

Infection
I believe shadorne may have the tube substitute number for the 6H23 incorrect. I believe the correct tube is 6922. Another good source is Upscale Audio.com. they also have good user reviews on tubes and good selection. 
I have never had problem with any tubes bought from them.With regards to Telefunken tubes vs Gold Lions. I have used both companies 12ax7 tubes in my phono stage. The Gold Li on tube is best value for money but they are not as good as the Telefunkens.

I  am a tube roller myself .  I just got an old Antique Sound Labs 845 SET integrated with multiple 6SN7s and a 6L6GC or KT-66.  I rolled all of the except the power tubes (845s) but I am seriously looking at replacing them.  I know my tubes pretty well and figured out which combination of 6SN7s would yield the sound I wanted. 
I agree that you should listen to your phono stage to learn what your baseline is.  You never know you might be happy the way it is.  You should really know what sound you are seeking as well/  Unfortunately in your situation you need to find tubes that are dead silent. Truly silent tubes that are fairly old are not that easy to find. Phono stages pick up and magnify the smallest of signals and do the same with any noise that is present.
The other matter is knowing where you can stretch things .  For instance my favorite 12AX7 or ECC83 is neither.  It's a 5751, however 5751s have lower gain than a ECC83.  If you are only using MM cartridges you might get away with that roll.  If you need all the gain you can get then you can't. If you want to keep the sound sound clean and clear then Telefunken is a good choice, some would advocate for current production.  If you want to warm up the sound then try to find a Blackburn Mullard from as early a period you can find. There are several other levels in between.
  One of the best 12AT7 or ECC81 was  made by Brimar it's a short lived sub brand, premium tube, they  called Trustee Brand and the ECC81 tube was numbered 6060, they are still available in the second hand market.  Andy doesn't like Brimar so don't tell him I told you that.  They are excellent tubes in MHO. 
The most difficult and expensive tube you will be chasing is the excellent E88CC or 6922.  They are expensive , if you like a clean crisp sound try to get a Siemans or Tlefunken.If you choose to go with a pro like Andy at vintage tube services be prepared to spend some money.  Another excellent tube pro is Brent Jesse at Audio tubes .com (he is on vacation) There is another great pro tube seller who will generally be less expensive - Jim McShane find him on audio asylum at McShane Design.  I am not affiliated with anyone yada yada yada,

Excellent comments, @mechans .
Very true about Andy and Brimar, he's knowledgeable and honest, but there are certain tubes he won't sell.    
I placed an order recently and went elsewhere for the Brimar I wanted. Really outstanding tubes.

@infection , Brimars are not as warm as Mullards, that's why I like them. What makes Mullards so special is that adding a premium NOS can make music sound holographic when combined with the right set of tubes. (these are the expensive Mullards).

Brimars have VG high and low-end extension, very natural sounding. I think they are best when used in the preamp line stage or as input tubes in an amp.
These added some warmth to my system without rolling off the highs...
https://www.upscaleaudio.com/collections/preamp-tubes/products/brimar-cv4003-12au7

The 12AX7 Brimar goes for about $120 to $150 each. But the best is a CV military type for about $150.

A problem with tubes is that you can not stop trying different tubes when you're realizing how good those vintage tubes are. It's an addiction. So don't expect that you will buy the right tube, you will buy many of them and they are different from each other, they are all expensive. 

yeah, i hope this Telefunken video will make you laugh :)
you know what to do now

@chakster  Interesting commercial! I'd like to see an updated version by Seth MacFarlane!

Thank you for the kind words.  The price of Brimar tubes has generally been lower than the Mullard equivalent. To be perfectly honest I haven't bought a  Brimar Trustee  6060 in many years.  I would guess that because of their scarcity that  it will boil down to you and the seller agreeing to a price usually on Ebay.  I think that $100-$150 range people have mentioned seems appropriate.  I still have 2 or 3 of them.  Which brings me to the other point people have been alluding to.  Tube rolling is indeed a slippery slope.  I too couldn't get over the fact that with most tube rolls I heard a different sound.  I liked it so much that I have a stupid number of tubes.  I suppose I should sell but then I would want to buy them back again. 
Not only did I like rolling the various tubes I was using, I then just collected them for any of a number of reasons.  I also thought I should get back ups for them.  You see how it goes-
So you can stop now or forever hold your piece.  Quite honestly I enjoy my tube collection. However,  I am still wondering why I bought so many short bottle 6SN7Ws. I have about 16 of them.
I hate selling, many of these tubes are 70+ years old and might not sound great or even good in the buyers gear.  I don't want to deal with complaints and returns, I am not a department store.  At the same time I don't like it when the seller says no returns whatsoever, or as is. as found.  I  have been burned many times by unscrupulous sellers and have bought some real loser tubes .  One prominent example is my experience buying Western Electric 421As. I was buying them for a headphone amp I bought that uses 6AS7Gs and 6080 power tubes.  So many were feeble shadows of themselves, and I got the sense that the guy was selling it was simply trying to get his money back from the last guy.  I swallowed a few and decided to look for other brands of the same construction, e.g. domino plates. I refused to do the same passing on a weak tube.  That's what honesty buys you.

  When you say you preamp phonostage uses ecc81/12at7, and ecc83/12ax7, and ecc88/6dj8/6922, is this all the tubes in your preamp, or is this the tubes in the phonostage, with other tubes else where?  
   Your phono might be only one type of these tubes, and the line stage , in you pre, another type. To improve the phono, you would only really have to change the phono tubes, to have the greatest effect.
    As far as sonics, only listening to the actual tubes in your preamp circuit will tell, everything else will be a general rule of thumb, which may, or may not apply. Most vintage tubes, tend to sound better, than most modern tubes, generally
   I am a tube seller with over 40 years of experience, with buying and selling tubes. I have built a bunch of tube gear, and the same tube sounds very different, in different circuits.
   If you can afford it, pricey NOS tubes, should always be the choice, as their value seems to go up. So if you did not like the choice, or found a set you like better, they can be resold. If on a budget, then vintage RCA, GE, and the like, can make a worthwhile improvement inexpensively.

    

@fletchj  - as i mentioned in my initial post this concerns the phono stage module within my Octave HP700. 
The pre already has Telefunken tubes.

I've now replaced the ECC81 & ECC83 in the phono stage module with NOS Telefunken. I cleaned the pins & as soon as I tried a record it was evident that these are superior. Even at this early stage there is far more detail, depth, increased low end & lower noise floor. 
I'm looking forward to how the sound develops...

Thanks again to you all, I really appreciate your input in helping me to choose these tubes.

You're welcome. Are you certain I can't introduce you to some o return used up crap from the last Shmegeggy, I bought them from.
Seriously, I have a major surgery coming up but in 10.5 weeks I'll be back, and for the first time seriously consider selling some of my tubes, only I will be honest about it..  I will do it through normal channels and I may indeed have an extra Trustee 6060 pair. I'll be sure to advertise them at that time.As long as I am writing in a dead thread, I will say that some microphonia in 70 Year Old 6SN7GTs isn't always a bad thing. I'll start a thread on that one, because I genuinely think and believe it helps with stage width depth and other  imagery, honestly.