Has anyone compared the TRL dude to earlier designs like the two chasis GTRP-platinum (one listed in Australia right now)?
Tube Pre-Amp Recommendation
Im new to this forum but have spent few months reading into posts. The more i read the more i get confused on my first purchase of a Good quality Tube Pre-amp. At this very moment I have always used Solid states pre-amp but after hearing the Audio Research Arc Ref 5 and 3 I am on the upgrade bug. Considering these units cost allot of money I need some suggestion if there are other Tube Pre-Amp which can either match similar levels to the Arc Ref 5 or better it.
I am not bothered about name brands or looks of the unit rather on how it presents the music to me.
I have not own a Tube Gear before in my life, and not sure on how to go about it. BTW I am in Indonesia (A British Expat Working and Living Here)
Demoing unit is out of the question here, even buying a unit here is so much more expensive then back at home In the UK. I prefer to Buy from USA (Will use a Power converter if needed)
My Current Setup is:
Speakers: Philharmonics 3
Amplifier: Audio GD Master 2 Series Mono Blocks (Will Upgrade Later to Krell, Macintosh or Pass)
CD player: Oppo 95 Using on Board DAC for the time being. Looking to upgrade later on for DAC
Room: Heavily treated, with Foam, Acoustic Panels, Bass Traps in all 4 Corners.
Budget less than 6000 Dollars.
Need Performance Level Matching that of Arc Ref 5Se or better.
Need suggestion and opinion on how to go about this. I prefer fasting sound more to neutral. Slight warm but not too much. I did find Cary SLP05 Pretty Warm, however on Ebay it slipped my fingers otherwise I was going to pull the trigger on that. I will being pairing this with Solid State Amplifier don’t want to get into Power Amps using Tubes for the next few years at least.
Any advise would be appreciated. Thanks Guys
I am not bothered about name brands or looks of the unit rather on how it presents the music to me.
I have not own a Tube Gear before in my life, and not sure on how to go about it. BTW I am in Indonesia (A British Expat Working and Living Here)
Demoing unit is out of the question here, even buying a unit here is so much more expensive then back at home In the UK. I prefer to Buy from USA (Will use a Power converter if needed)
My Current Setup is:
Speakers: Philharmonics 3
Amplifier: Audio GD Master 2 Series Mono Blocks (Will Upgrade Later to Krell, Macintosh or Pass)
CD player: Oppo 95 Using on Board DAC for the time being. Looking to upgrade later on for DAC
Room: Heavily treated, with Foam, Acoustic Panels, Bass Traps in all 4 Corners.
Budget less than 6000 Dollars.
Need Performance Level Matching that of Arc Ref 5Se or better.
Need suggestion and opinion on how to go about this. I prefer fasting sound more to neutral. Slight warm but not too much. I did find Cary SLP05 Pretty Warm, however on Ebay it slipped my fingers otherwise I was going to pull the trigger on that. I will being pairing this with Solid State Amplifier don’t want to get into Power Amps using Tubes for the next few years at least.
Any advise would be appreciated. Thanks Guys
76 responses Add your response
Tonywinsc, you bring up many very good questions, and each buyer will have to answer these to their own personal satisfaction. There are no absolute guarantees in life, and sometimes even big name high end companies go out of business, witness Counterpoint, Threshold, etc. Yes, on average ARC, Krell, VAC, CJ, etc., may be a safer bet than TRL, Doshi, Messenger, Clayton, etc., but they are still a risk, especially when considering the risk/reward scenerio of a Sony/Denon/Marantz purchase. It's a lot like buying stock, you can buy a low risk, low reward stock or be more adventurous and roll the dice on a high risk, high reward stock. That's what makes life interesting, and many people will have many different views on what is right. It all boils down to what is right.....for you, the buyer. Remember though that all of these high end audio companies are a bit riskier investment than say a Sony, Denon or Marantz. Most of us here gamble to some degree. The only difference is how high of a risk/reward gamble we are willing to take. |
Ultimately, is a "craftsman's" ability to do what he does best really impacted by simply taking an hour or so to provide some modicum of detail that his customers can view, and thereby get better acquainted with his products? It would seem somewhat more practical to provide a degree of information than having to answer the same questions over and over via email or phone, and less time consuming. |
Ralph, note this statement in the OP's initial post: Amplifier: Audio GD Master 2 Series Mono Blocks (Will Upgrade Later to Krell, Macintosh or Pass)The Audio GD Master 2 is indicated as being a fully balanced design, with an XLR input impedance of 94K and sensitivity of 4V rms. It is rated at 250W into 8 ohms and 500W into 4 ohms. It only provides RCA inputs if they are custom ordered. Best regards, -- Al |
Dragon_Vibe, So far you've not mentioned what kind of amp you have other than it is solid state. Does it have a balanced input? Do you know the input impedance? This might help a little in your search. Some preamps (ARC for example) don't seem to like it if the input impedance is less than about 20-30K ohms. If your amp has a balanced input, its likely that it will sound better if the preamp is balanced. So if you are still looking for input, this information from you might be helpful ;) |
If I were shopping for a preamp, sound would be my top priority but not my only priority. It might be a hobby; but it is still a business transaction. I do not rotate equipment very often but I still consider resale value to be very important. Maybe I plan to keep it for several years; but things change and I might want to sell it after just a year or two. Is it going to sell, or am I going to take a bath on the deal to get it off my hands? What about safety and reliability? Does this device have the UL and/or TUV seal? Would I feel safe leaving this device on overnight while I sleep or leaving it on while I am out shopping or at work all day? How will I get it serviced 10 years from now? Will the manufacturer still be in business or will I have to hunt down a tech who is able to service it? How will this tech know how to service it without the technical schematics or specs? How do I know my unit sounds as good as all of the others that this manufacturer has built? Perception is everything in marketing a product. I feel excellence is a state of mind. It must be pervasive throughout the organization whether it is a one man outfit or a large company. So I cannot buy into the idea that a shabby website has no connection to the quality of the product. Maybe I will miss out on a gem or two with this mindset; but I'd say the odds are still in my favor. The converse is not true either. I won't let myself be lulled into buying a product based on a top notch store front or website without first investigating my other priorities for a product. (I have sold an item or two online and I quickly learned that presentation has a big impact on the final auction price.) |
It is rare for a craftman to also be a good businessman. Most craftsmen will be interested in getting the product right and not answering the phone/ emails and setting up a good website. Some will partner with a marketing person, but others are fine selling to a nich group of customers and keeping quality under control. I like working with craftsmen, and it will drive others crazy. You decide for yourself with your money. Our company has opened 3 new offices in the past 4 years by word of mouth and providing good service. Believe it or not, this still works, and seems to be working at TRL and other small companies. People seem to respond to companies with craftsmen who love what they do, others need, and expect, more than that. Btw, our website is a joke. We don't care. |
A pretty website and impressive specs don't guarantee a quality product or company. One must do his/her HOMEWORK before making any purchasing decisions. In a niche market, boutique companies are the norm rather than exception and if one is adventurous, they will be rewarded. Like Mitch2 said, "to each his own" and it's ridiculous bashing a company for their website. |
I forgot to add, I have owned the Dodd and its a wonderful preamp - right up there with the VAC that I currently own. I owned mine a few years ago and had issues with the battery charging making the unit somewhat unreliable. It looks like the Dodd uses a new system now, but I would suggest researching that issue closely. In fairness to the OP, let's drop the TRL debate. |
Your opinions are all great and nobody is trying to win or lose. This is not a matter of sides or right and wrong. To make it into that is unfortunate and disappointing. I buy based on hearing and reviews and comments from other seasoned, well respected Aphiles. I have learned a great deal from this site and purchased the Dude, Duelund caps and many other "under the radar" joys because of the combined experience of posters. I hope I have done this for others through the years. I wish you all a Wonderful Christmas. God bless! |
Hey guys, I say "to each his own." You wanna talk about webpages, take a look at CAT - Ken Stevens has made some of the most successful and best sounding preamps of the past 20-some years and they hardly have a website! You might want to add a CAT preamp to your list. Buying from Paul with his less than techno-savvy website is not going to be for everyone, but maybe he wants it that way. Think about it, if he had a great website, a dealer network, and attended all the shows, perhaps he wouldn't be able to keep up with demand. In this commodity driven world I can appreciate that a design artisan might want to keep control of his work, and deal only with customers who really want and appreciate the products. If his current advertising program (or lack of) wasn't working for him, don't you think he would make changes? Same with Ken Stevens at CAT. On the other side of the coin, it doesn't take a large company to have an up to date website. For example, Emmanuel Go at First Sound has a very nice modern website for what is basically a one-man operation with one basic product. Emmanuel also makes great sounding preamps that you might consider. I don't disagree that Paul at TRL may benefit (with increased sales) by having better descriptions of his products on the website. I personally like the detail given the products on the First Sound site. He could also consider getting some outside assistance like Ken Stevens at CAT did with the Factory Tour Feature Article on Soundstage! But, even if he never upgrades his website, you have to respect all the positive feedback he receives from audiophiles who have actually purchased his products. I came really close to buying a DUDE a year or so ago but, like Jtwrace, my amps have only balanced inputs and, at the time, I was too impatient to wait for Paul to construct a new balanced model and, like you, I was hesitant to spend the money on something unheard. That was my choice, and probably my loss since several audio-aquaintances told me how great the DUDE sounds so, maybe in the future... I would still love to hear one in my system. Finally, I wouldn't entirely give up on solid state. I still think the Tom Evans preamp approaches most of the good tubed preamps I have owned, although it is a bit more neutral and slightly less dynamic so maybe not for everyone. Currently I am using a great sounding custom preamp from another design artisan, Steve McCormack, who took an old TLC-1 and, with carte blanche authorization, crafted an amazing balanced preamp that rivals anything I have owned. Steve's website needs a little work too - but then, I don't listen to the website. Good luck with your search. |
Dragon, Since you`ve eliminated the Dude from your list I can suggest three linestages based on personal experience.In no particular order. 1)VAC Signature MK II. 2)Atmssphere MP-1 MK III. 3)Coincident Statement Linestage. All 3 are superb in sound,built quality and customer support.They are different in design and circuit yet these three I`d choose above the ARC REF V.Yes, just one man`s opinion.The VAC and Atmasphere you`d have to find used to come close(if possible) to your price point.But the three of them make simply beautiful music. Good Luck, |
"John, I am in marketing and know the power well." Great. Then you also realize that the dearth of basic information on their website creates an aura, a mystique that can create a cult following. Why do other smaller boutique shops disagree with that approach? I'm thinking of Audio Horizons, DeHavilland, and many others. |
ITs not about marketting ploy BS we looking for, Just simple stuff like Spec or topology on preamp, Inputs, Outputs, Options available, coponents being used. Some pictures thats all. Few paragraph wont hurt or take away to much time and effort. Anyways Im not attacking TRL and have no intention to do so. I understand they are a 2 man company and the feller needs to make a liviing and probably does really make very fine pre which can stand against the big boys. I dont want to comment further. So im gona leave this topic alone and move on. |
@ grannyring No one is whining, to some people information is a key factor when making a purchase especially when a buyer is dropping $$$ on something they've never heard. Like you I appreciate a designer that takes pride in their product and taking the time to give some mandatory specs speaks volumes. It's the little things that show the designer looks at the little details that make a long lasting product. I've never heard the Dude, and I'm sure it sounds great, but there are many potential buyers who will immediately discount the product for lack of basic spec info. I have some old gear that I've inherited from my father, hell he has some old gear that he still uses today; awesome build quality that's still going strong. These companies took pride in the little things and for me I expect that from any company that charges a high amount. |
Ya who really cares about websites. It's about the sound and unless you have heard, then perhaps your words are noise. The best speakers I have heard are from a one man company with a website you would also moan about - Intuitive Design. who cares. Don't buy if you need a good website. Pretty simple. Fact is you will miss some of the best sounding gear. I have heard gear from awesome looking websites that make my ears hurt. Really? Websites play no roll in the way gear sounds. |
My advice would be look for a good 2nd hand Ayon CD-5s on the 'Gon. You should be able to pick one up for about $6k on a haggle. The CD-5s has a more musical sounding dac than your Oppo & factory stock the built in preamp sounds better than an ARC Ref 3. With upgraded output tubes the CD-5s would give an ARC Ref 5 a good run for it's money. Plus you're getting a much superior transport at the same time. If you want to know how to push the performance of the 5s closer to an ARC Ref 5SE, send me a PM and I can give you some advice on some cost effective upgrade options. If you can make do with 1 xlr, 1 rca & various digital inputs, then in your system this would be my first choice. |
Guys, Guys, Guys! I don't own a Dude, but I have heard one in a friend's system. He was a very happy owner. The guy who builds them isn't asking for this attention. He isn't trolling or posting. Unless someone posts a personal experience with his actual gear that was negative, a disservice is (however unintentionally) being done here. I have no dog in this fight other than a general regard for the feelings of people who are minding their own business. It's time to let this guy continue to make an honest living (there's no evidence I've been able to find that should inpugn his itegrity) How would *you* like to find a lengthy discussion on line about whether or not *you* are honest when no one actually has evidence or a complaint? It's hard to unring a bell, so let's please stop ringing it. |
I too was put off by the lack of information on the Dude website. No one is asking for fancy advertising with nice interactive screens; Up to date pics with some specs would suffice. Also wasn't fond of the correspondence via email with Paul. I guess its hit or miss with him. I ended up buying a Canary pre which i'm very happy with. You should check out the Canary CA-906, well within your price range used and an excellent pre. All the pre amps yo have listed are excellent products though so either way you'll be getting a good product. |
Dragon_vibe, why don't you just leave The Dude alone, like you said you were going to do? Smaller manufacturers, like TRL, are not for everyone. If you want something with lots of information and formal reviews, then you will need to pay for that marketing campaign. It sounds like you want an Audio Research preamp. So just go and get one already. I've been in this "game" a long time, and as with any decision in life, there are +'s and -'s to any decision. You say you want to spend less than $6000, but want something equal or better than a ARC Ref 5SE. Since you cannot even buy a used Ref 5SE for $6000, that leaves you only with the choice of a small, boutiques type manufacturer, where your money is invested in the product and not in marketing. Generally, boutique brands that I've heard or owned do offer more bang for the buck. However, you usually will not find them at discount on the used market, and they tend to drain you if you decide to change direction and sell. You should only buy if you intend to keep it for quite a while, IMHO. Again, I have never heard The Dude, so I cannot say anything about it. However, it sounds as if you had a falling out with the manufacturer, and said you were going to leave them off your list. I suggest that you follow up on your promise, and move on. |
Grannyring. Thank you for the useful information. I have Odyssey Audio Daul Mono with input impedance of 22K I am good with soldering, I mod my DAC, solid preamp with following parts, OPamp, Black gate CAPs, Soft recovery Diodes, resistors. Will get 2 .47uf from Parts Conextion before they raise the price. Will contact you for more details on this upgrade. |
Teeteebid. The CAST will raise the performance in ways you don't think are possible. Congrats on your purchase. Please tell me the amp you are using and the input impedance of that amp. The coupling cap I used was .47uf and they are on sale at Parts Connextion. That value or .22uf works great with most amps and especially tube amps with input impedances of 100k ohms. Feel free to email me and I can help you through the update. Not sure how experienced you are with soldering and this sort of thing. |
How does the Dude Compare to the Coincident Statement Line-Stage pre-amplifier which is supposed to be highly reviewed professionally online? I could believe the joy the dude brings but it lacks enough information online to justify the cost for those who can’t listen to it. If Paul and his team made the little effort online giving out clear information it helps people with matching specification on Impedance and other criteria for synergy matching. Paul may think I’m criticizing but asking questions an investigating and having them answered online helps everyone to understand better. Im looking at the Coincident Statement Line-Stage now, as dude is off my list as requested by paul |
The Dude is off the List for sure because I still dont know what this guy is talking about but im not paying someone 6000 dollars specially when i get emails like this Zafir, please take any TRL product off your product search. We have nothing to do with people who openly criticize us by posting personal communication without our expressed permission. This lack of character or integrity is unacceptable by itself. Your knowing that I don't post online so that I won't come after you to set the record straight is plain cowardly. Besides, since your first email and your involvement with those crystals creeped me out on the spot as it just disturbs me. So you've just shortened your journey and can cross one more company off your list. That's good, it gets you to your goal.... Critize what??? I dont understand when someone needs to part 6000 dollars do they not have the right to ask people questions and investigate or research? I wont be bother with this. The dude is of the list as the dude is too crazy for me. |
Dragon, you have many good choices given and I am sure anyone of the suggestions will sound quite good. In terms of your confusion with the email sent to you, well please consider a couple of things from the builders perspective. Stating a small group of folks purchased the Dude is really not true or accurate. Actually many have been sold each year for several years, but most owners are music lovers not inclined to spend time here as I do. Your post also suggests just two people do his marketing ( pointing to me) when of coarse I am not at all their marketing arm, but simply an active and passionate audiophile who posts regularly on many subjects. When you bring up things like scams, no internal pics, displeasure with this and that one can certainly understand the builders concern and caution. Many preamps have no internal pics . You won't find any on the fine Coincident and many small operation products. This is common. In addition, it is common for a company not to loan out amps or preamps on trial that take one person weeks to make. My goodness how or why should a one man operation do this. Surely such an offer is not reasonable on a 70 pound labor of love that requires weeks of preparation. Lastly, no I am not angry and certainly he has many, many owners besides me and other posters who love his gear and enjoy Paul's service. His world is far bigger then me and the posters here and I understand you would not know this. |
I got a email from Pual today. Claims i made 2 of his customers angry???? what the hell is going on??? Here is a snippet. My email was asking on build times : This is wrong. If you really desire that I be discredited and go out of business, then I will at your wish if you truly believe that I shouldn't be in business and I shouldn't sell preamps to those that wish them. But words do have consequences when left unchallenged on an internet post that gets read worldwide. I don't think it's in your best interest but it may well be. I know that you've angered a few of my customers who you don't know and haven't posted and want to know from me if I care or want to have the record set straight. So we don't need any of this to go on. I think the ARC is right for you right now and will be exactly what you need. Then I'll go along servicing my two customers. Is he reffering to both of you or has paul mistaken me for someone else. All these responses are very confusing. |
The problem is Dude :-) im not in the USA. If Paul Allowed this i would take up on the offer and bite the bullet on Customs Charges. I really want to try this gear out. I have purchased many things in the past with out listening to the gear, some have been good suggestion whilst others i ended up being dissapointed and had the burden of losing the cash out and going through the headache of selling it. |
Grannyring, Will have to find and research into this, spending 6000 grand on a pre-amp from user rave reviews on here is a some anmount of risk taking. I am finalsing my list to the following: Dodd (Used this with my Theatre Setup) Coincident Statement Dude VAC I will try to find pictures of the internal of dude. I did request it from Paul. If yuou guys can share pictures i would like to see them. |
