My suggestion, since you are noticing a difference for the better with different IC cables, is to try to lay your hands on some Virtual Dynamics cords - you can "rent" them from the Cable Company. They really let the music through and I'm pretty sure will solve your "veil" issue, especially if you also bi-wire your speakers with Virtual Dynamics instead of MIT. Once people try them, they have a tendency to not let them out of their system, myself included.
I have no connection to Virtual Dynamics other than being a happy customer. |
Try switching your source to another CDP, or at least audition another. I've got a feeling this is the limiting part of your system. |
This is a very interesting thread. I have a pair of non sig 2ce's and have been noticing the same Veiled sound and lack of calrity in the highs..
So far I have not been able to solve it with several interconnects... I am working on a new pair of speaker cables but still need some parts. I also am going to try another amplifier I have to pick up next week.. its a pass labs Aleph 3.
Anyway.. I have the same problem and I am very glad I did not take the time to upgrade to 2ce sigs as I am guessing it would not have helped all the much. The new 2ce II's are an exciting proposition however.. all 3A sig components but the woofer. This is a fun hobby but you need to be analytical and patient unless you have tons of money.. Oh I rebiased my Threshold 400a and it helped a bit.. I frankly think this is a game of small gains in several areas that add up to what you are looking for. I think the Vandersteen 2ce and 2ce sigs are probably the best speaker you are going to find for a smaller sized room under $2k used. Its my opinion based on a zillion other opinions here that I have ready that you need to move up a whole class to really see gains unless you want to take the time to get your cabling; and amplifer right.
I'm rambling now but maybe someone will make some sense out of what I am trying to say.. patience and logic... TRY stuff.. I am building the "Home depot" extension cord speaker cables.. why not? Will cost $25.00... google it. |
So I hear Audioquest good, and Audioquest bad.... a new pair of Quatro Wood speakers are on the way to my dads and I hope Audioquest sounds good, it will be a real bummer to have to replace 3 month old Mont Blac speaker cables and Niagra IC's. |
A month ago I would have agreed with many of the original statements regarding that perhaps the Vandersteens are veiling the overall sound. I would have been making that statement based on my past experience with the Vandersteen 2C's (and subsequent incarnations) and from experiences with my 1C's going in and out of my main system over the last few years.
However, after selling my Magnepan MG3.6r's and while I wait for my Ridgestreet Audio Designs Sason LTD's, I once again inserted the 1C's into my my main system and I have been immensely impressed with the sound of the 1C's. There is a great deal of air and hf extension through the 1C's (not on par with the Magnepan's, but certainly not "rolled off" sounding either). The 1C's are not what one would typically mate with the rest of my gear, but I think the results indicate that the 1C's (and I would certainly assume the 2CSigs even more so) will play glorious music if fed a good signal. My main system:
Esoteric UX-3 with GNSC Statement mods
BAT VK51SE
Atma-Sphere MA1 MkII.3
1m Purist Museaus XLR from source to pre
7m Purist Museaus XLR from pre to amps
2m Purist Museaus speaker cables.
Incidently, this same system with the exception of Parasound JC1 SS amps in place of the Atma-Sphere's was not as extended with the 1C's and, surprisingly, the bass was not as realistic either. This was surprisingly true on the MG3.6R's as well. My friend and I both agree that the insertion of the Atma's resulted in an amazing amount of natural detail (from lows, mids, to highs) being passed to both the Maggies and now the Vandersteens.
Drew, I think you should be able to get the Vandys to sound VERY good without spending a great deal. I would join in on recommending some experimentation with gear and cables in the same price range you currently have. It may be that what initially drew you to the Vandys (BTW, I too was drawn to them upon first hearing them ~20 years ago and still enjoy what Richard's speakers do today) was their way with the mids and lower hf? If your choice for cables and equipment were influenced by that, you may be guilty (I've done this before) of trying to overemphasize a particular freq region through cables and equipment and lost the balance the Vandy's are capable of producing? Anyway, sorry for being so verbose. Good luck!
Jordan |
Germanboxers: Great contribution! |
I have the Vandy 3 Sigs. I've had various McCormack amps on them.. 0.5, then a pair of 0.5's, then a 1 RevA Gold with every update. Then I tried a Channel Islands D200. It was like the speakers had a blanket over it the whole time and then removed. Sold the McCormack and never looked back. I don't know about other class D amps, but for me this is the right combination. They are capable of much more. I don't think cables alone will bring that out. |
I have heard the McCormack DNA 0.5 and 1, both Deluxe and non-Deluxe versions. While a good amp with a nice bottom end and good dynamics, I felt that it was a little rolled-off in the highs. I own a Vandersteen 3A Signature and confirm that the setup is very difficult for these speakers. I would expect the same with the 2CE's. Tilt-back is very important and it will take a considerable trial and error before you get things right. I agree with the strategy of making the cheaper changes first: setup, then cables, then amp, then speaker. I think interconnect between preamp and power amp is more important than speaker cables. As far as speaker cables are concerned, I like Kimber 4TC. It is a bargain and if you don't like it, you can resell it easily. It is very neutral and full-range and I've used it with very good equipment and it doesn't seem to lack for transparency, smoothness, or anything else. Also, don't forget the power cord on the amp. Sometimes, this can breathe life into a system which is too dark. Also, upgrades to this amp by Steve McCormack are widely purported to take the amp to another level. You could consider the upgrade path, assuming Steve McCormack is still in that business. There are plenty of posts on what upgrade levels are available and what the sonic benefits of each are. This might be cheaper than buying a considerably better amp. Since your budget is kind of limited, check on the cost of the upgrade and what this does to the resale price of the amp. My recollection is that you might be able to get the price of the upgrade back in reselling the amp, or at least that was nearly so a few years ago. If amp replacement is on tap, it would be great if you could borrow some equipment before committing to making any purchase.Don't be afraid to move the speakers around after each change. |
I replaced the MIT 2 biwires with Kimber 8TC (shotgunned and biwired). The sound improved tremendously. In comparison the MIT's were in fact darker sounding, perhaps contributing to the "veiled" sound. The Kimber really opened up the music. Hi-end extention was greatly improved, and the bass tigthend up as well. These cables are definitely more forward-sounding for lack of a better description.
I moved my system to the short wall. The room is approx. 25X15. I also reset the tweeter and woofer contours back down to 0db on the vandersteens. To my ears this setting seems to best complement my system with the room.
So after 6 months of pondering, researching, listening, and necessary (financially affordable) adjustments I am now pretty happy with my system. The Vandy's can sound "veiled", but I think after my little journey here in the past few months, I realized that with the right setup and proper matching, they can be made to reproduce wonderfully clear and dynamic music.
Now I am thinking to...
add a 2WQ subwoofer to my system, maybe in a stereo setup. Woundn't that be nice... |
Drewyou - Now that you have them sounding better, which connections are you using on the back of the DNA deluxe? I have the same amp and speakers and I (accidentally) found that the barrier strip connections sounded better to me than the Cardas posts. I have a true biwire set up with cables I made. I tried several permutations of connectors and putting high/low on one or the other amp connections and found that it sounded best to me with all the speaker leads connected to the barrier strips. If you're looking for one more thing to try..... |
I have both shotgunned biwires connected to the Cardas posts. I tired putting both on the barrier strip, and although the sound seems fine, I was worried about not having a secure fit with the screws. One thing I experienced was that putting both hi and low connections on either the Cardas posts or the barrier strip was better than separating out to each. |
No one here mentioned adding a sub. (i care because i am contemplating one)
Some of what i read tells me that adding a sub even to 2CEs will enhance the mids and highs. What do you smart folks think of that? |
Go for it. Get 2 if you can. You won't be disappointed. |
I added a pair of 2Wq's to my 1Cs. Major improvement in dynamics and smoothness, especially at high volumes. They are amazing subs that are audibly invisible until called upon. Then they hit you in the gut with clean, tuneful bass that is not boomy at all. All this with the temporary x-overs. In-line filters now on order. |
Cityside,
I added a single 2Wq to my system, and it definitely enchanced the mids and highs, while providing bass I had never heard before in my system. I am thinking of adding another to my system. |
Congrats! Drewyou... adding a second sub also fixes bass nodes in your room and will require way less bass traps. Stereo Subs are the way to go! |
When I had the 2ce sig the sub was a huge improvnment! NOt only did it really tighen up the bass it helped with the ighs since my amp had to supply less power. I highly recomend it. if you can't afford qutros. |
I have 3A sigs and one sub was "OK" but two are so much better, the speakers open up in this configuration, it was as if they were holding their breath then exhaled and took a relaxed breath and started breathing normally! If you can afford the second sub get it the improvement is well worth the price! |
Two subs is unquestionably the way to go with 2s and 3s; eseentially what you get when you buy Quattros or 5s. |
Drewyou- Now for the icing on the cake: Replace the 6922 tubes in your CDP with a pair of Siemens E188CC's, 7308's or CCa's. If you shop for the CCa's: be certain they are from the 60's(grey plate below getter support), as the later versions are very strident. I've got a matched NOS pair of ECC801S tubes that I'm willing to let you try in your TAD, for an opinion(no risk, or charge). E-mail me if you're interested in the experiment/experience. |
Update: My system was out of commission for the past 6 months, due to the left channel going out in my McCormack amp. After some discussion with the folks out at SMcAudio, I decided to have my amp fixed there and upgraded to "Silver" (similar to the older Rev B upgrades).
Oh man, what a difference the upgrade made to my system. EVERYTHING improved. Clarity, soundstaging, bass response/tightness... let's just say I am now a very happy owner of a decent reasonably affordable stereo system. Now I wonder what could have been if I had taken the Gold or Platinum upgrade, but being recently married, my budget was capped.
Another issue I've been dealing with is room size as I have moved to a new place, and my dedicated listening room is approx 13 x 13. After some ordeal, I ended up setting up my system diagonally. This seemed to be a great improvement over setting up along one of the walls. 2wq sub placement was difficult indeed. I pretty much slid the sub above every square foot of the room to find the best performance. I ended up placing it in a corner along the foundation wall of the house.
I'm looking to get into room treatment... anyone have any suggestions? |
Diagonal placement was fairly commonplace at RMAF, and there are theories supporting this kind of placement. Good and affordable room treatment can be had at acoustimac.com |
Get the Stereophile Test CD (#1). I use it to adjust the subs, physical placement,Q and db settings, it's a huge help!!! You only need a Sound Level Meter( digital) from Radio Shack for db level readings. There are also other simple test that help in the evaluation of your system. |
Drewyou
Glad to hear you are enjoying your upgrades, I have my TLC-1Dlx scheduled for the Gold upgrade along with having the Carbon wire installed. They told me it would be after the first of the year before they could get started on it. I have pair of DNA-1 Golds that I use to drive a pair of 3A Sig with awesome results. I just added a 2Wq with the X-5 crossover a couple of weekends ago and Wow what an improvement but then again you already know this. I'm not sure if you're using the X-5 or the X-2 but I can tell you this much the X-5 will add a whole new meaning to the word clarity to your system. I haven't been home the past two weeks to be able to pinpoint exactly what all the improvement are but that will be the fun of it listening to all that great music. If you get the chance try the X-5 you will be amazed at the what your system can actually present to you.
You should post your system on the system board, I have plans to do that here in the next coming weeks as the cold sets in. |
Probably not as sophisticated as many here, but have a pair of Vandy 2c driven by Myryad MI-240 integrated, use anticables for speaker wires and also to my Marantz 4300 (yes - cringe - a carousel) CD player. The Myryad replaced my old NAD 3020 and it is much faster and more accurate. Any tips to improve or balance this system?
Thanks. |
Soundbit,
The last thing, component-wise that I changed/upgraded when I first got into this hobby was my source component (in my case, a CD-player). I thought, "a CD player is a CD player, can they really be all that different from one another?"
All I can tell you is that, it definitely does make a difference, IMO as much as an amp or preamp. Although the rest of my system has remained generally the same for the past few years, a few different CD players have come and gone in my system. The ones that I've tried are Rotel rcd-02, Rotel 990, Shanling, older Rega Jupiter, and now the Eastern Electric.
Go out and see what's out there. You'll be surprised and hopefully happy with what you hear. |
UPDATE: By posting here so many years later, I hope I am not breaking any forum rules around resurrecting old threads. Perhaps it may be better to post as a new thread... It’s not anything special for me to say that much has happened in my life since my last post in 2008; however, one thing that has virtually remained the same is my system! Without getting into much detail, since early 2010 until this summer, my system has pretty much been in storage. I remember during those couple years before 2010, I was extremely satisfied with my system. I think the only additional tweaks I made were replacing my ICs with Kimber Silver Streaks and settling with Mullard 4024 tubes in my TAD-150 sigs*, both of which brought incrementally significant improvements to my system. The next thing on my list, at that time, was a new turntable. (I was sad to learn of Paul Grzybek’s* passing and to hear Eastern Electronics is no more) Fast forward to 2020, I found myself spending significantly more time at home and with the need to set up a "home office". This was my cue to bring out the system. Unpacking my system felt a bit like opening up a personal time-capsule, stirring up old memories and bringing back latent knowledge. This room is the smallest (11 x 11 x 9) I’ve had to work with. I started with diagonal placement, as I did with my room from 2008, but the standard straight wall placement just sounded better, especially for low freq. I suspect a lot of this has to do with the placement of windows in my room. After some research, I added simple first reflection treatments to the side walls, ceiling, and behind the speakers. These made significant improvements to clarity and especially to the sound stage. I am a novice in room treatment, but I am eager to learn more. A significant change to my system has been the recent addition of a Lumin D2 unit (streamer / DAC) with Sbooster PS. Adding this unit has been the single most important change that has re-ignited my fire for this hobby. Yes, the unit is great, but it’s what it has enabled that brings the biggest value for me. The 80’s-2000’s marked a period of my life full of exploring and discovering new music. This is what led me to the audiophile world (I’m sure this is true for many of you). Unfortunately, the day I packed up my equipment in 2010, also marked the day I stopped listening to new music. With the streamer, I listen to new music everyday, which in turn has let me appreciate my system even more. To summarize my thoughts over the past 14 years, the following is what has so far helped me on my journey to extract more from my Vandersteens (In order of magnitude of impact): - Supplementing the speakers - adding sub and cross-over
- Placement & sound treatment - getting to "know" my speakers, experimenting with positioning, and treating first node reflection points
- Improving source component & content - easy access to hi-res content has been a blessing, Lumin D2 is a wonderful little unit
- Finding tubes that fit your taste - tubes make a difference, but I didn’t truly know until I started "rolling" them first hand
- Speaker cables and ICs - finding my "value" sweet spot is key here (perceived improvement to system vs. how much I am willing to pay)
----------------------------------------- My Vandersteen 2CE Signatures sound better than they ever have. I’ve owned them for close to 18 years now. This being said... my quest to extract more from my Vandersteens has been re-booted. As always, I welcome any suggestions or comments. I am currently entertaining these ideas: - Moving up in the Vandersteen product line (Treo, Quatro)
- Considering replacement speakers that match small rooms and are good for near-field listening
- Additional SMc Audio upgrades to my DNA-1 Deluxe Silver
- Continue tube rolling for TAD-150 Sig
- Replacing my TAD-150 Sig
|
