After speaking to Paul at TRL I am very curious to hear from those who own this unit what improvements do you hear with the player before and after the mod.
The SA-14 sounds weak in the bass and has no dynamics in comparison to some players like the Sony Scd-1 in stock form. Has anyone compared the TRL Sa-14 to the Sony Scd-1?
Oldpet (Paul): They make us all feel that way. I'm now enjoying their new ST-225 amp along with the SA-14 ...
If you like the sound of the SA-14 with the latest updates, you'll thoroughly enjoy their amp. It definitely has the TRL sound. (Dynamics, black back ground, tight focus, incrdible detail, wide deep stage, full rich sound)
Hi Jack Sure did! I can't believe these updates were free. :-) As good as the original TRL SA-14 was, and it was good - I've noticed: the dynamics are really slamin'. It seems easier to hear the dynamic contrasts and subtle differences within them. Voices (midrange) surely are more fleshed out as well. No harshness, glare, or sizzle in the sound. Also, Bass seems to be more easily defined, both in pitch and in timbre. Noise floor - NONE. All of this comes from a pure black background. I say pure black because the system is as quiet when playing (and the music is silent) as it is when I turn everything off. I have to look up to see if I have everything on. :-) Images within the stage seem to be more easily defined, and pin point acurate too. All of this is being said with only 24 hours on the machine. I'm looking forward to hearing it as it continues to break in. I'd like to hear some "mega buck machines", just to give myself a better frame of reference. But, I honestly can't immagine better sound coming from a player. I'm very pleased and impressed.
I know I'm biased but, the guys at TRL really make me feel like I'M their only customer. That says alot about the way they treat their customers. Believe me - I'm probably their smallest customer, but i certainly don't feel that way.
Hmmmm..... I would agree that a Denon receiver is not the best preamp/amp component for two channel listening, but there still shouldn't be noticeable increased noise level or hiss, or whatever you are getting. I have a Denon receiver myself and have used it with TRL digital sources (SOny 595, Marantz SA14) with no problems.
Since you say it is only on female vocals and guitar reverb I now am unclear what exactly it is you are hearing. Is is extreme sibliance on vocals? Is it unatural fizz on the electric guitars? Is it background noise level? If it is not on every disk, that is confusing to me.
I guess you could try a different preamp/amp combo if you can also.
I would wait and put the McIntosh in your system and let it play for a few days. My guess is the "shhh..." you described is not distortion but what I have described as "air" around the instruments which the Denon is not fully presenting. Just IMHO.
I see that you, like me, are breaking in a CRL Silver power cord. They take a long long time to break in. I have over 600 hours on mine and I am still hearing it smooth out.
Have you tried the Quick Silver? I have not yet (I should) but I understand that it makes the highs more refined.
I should probably start a new topic but since I have some dialogue giong, I'll continue for a minute.
I ran other sources (DVD, DVR) through the system with no problems. I lied before, the MA6500 is not in place, yet...but it will be this weekend. Right now I'm using a Denon 3805. The Callistos may not have a full 200 hours to them but it's pretty close. The problem is mainly heard on female vocals and electric guitar with reverb. Paul mentioned that the CDP may be "too hi-rez" or "overloading" for the Denon. Any thoughts?
Again, I'm open to suggestions. By the end of this weekend I will have hit the 500 hour mark. If the problem continues the unit is going back to TRL for review.
I would call Paul. Distortion induced by the player is not normal. The TRL is exceptionally smooth, natural, detailed,and essentially hash or edge free.
If you have another source unit (CD/Turntable) you can confirm that the distortion is not coming from your preamp/amp or speakers.
TRL will make it right with no problem if there is something that happened to yours in shipping.
Sbayne - The best way to discribe the sound is somewhat like if you said, "shhh"...maybe distortion is too extreme. The other thing is that it doesn't happen on every disc. I'm open to ideas...see below for system.
Cjenest - Distortion in the midrange and treble are not normal. I don't have your exact player but based on my experience at some where between 100 to 150 hours the TRL mod really starts to flesh the sound out with lot of air around the instruments and no hard sounding treble. Your player may have been damaged. Does it sound like the transport is rubbing or anything of that nature?
Wanted to jump in on the TRL action here. The break in question is a very good thought provoking issue. From my own experience I was following the break-in period on my TRL Sony 2000es and my log shows a significant change at 310 hours.
I wish it was my imagination but its not. Its like reporting, several eye witnesses see the same thing you can pretty much take it to court.
Some of you who just had the update are witnesses and soon will know. Some modders are free with their part changes while others keep it private. Too bad there is formula.
But there is curiousity about everything and why they work that way. Its only natural to ask what TRL is doing to get this kind of sound.
On the question of what modification I am doing on my transport, its really experimentation at this point.
I am planning to CNC a few parts with my material. And as for the static sheets I have not been able to get a response from the overseas company. I would recommend for those who wish to try this tweek go to your local Radio Shack or order on line the Static pad ($24.99) which is used when working inside any electronic device.
Help? - I'm around hour 300 on a 2000ES and still hear distortion in the midrange and treble. Is that the common experience with other TRL mod owners? I've heard these things take time but I don't know if there was damage in shipping or if this is the way it is...for now.
I'm approaching 150 hours on my TRL. You would have to have a pretty low end system to not hear the differences between the straight out of the box player and how this player currently sounds. The soundstage has gone from flat to extending one to two feet outside of each speaker and to about 5 feet behind the speakers. I'll just let it keep playing.....
I'm not so sure that TRL says that 500 hours is a magic number. IME, as one's music system gets better sounding, more changes are evident with break-in. If a system hasn't very much resolving power, one might not hear any change with break-in. So, some will hear differences with breaking-in a player or cable or... and, some won't notice a thing. There's plenty of room for both camps in this crazy hobby. Deb
I agree the whole break-in discussion is a little mysterious especially with TRL claiming 500 hours is necessary when other companies say 100 hours is enough. All I can say is my system is sounding better every day. My son even commented the sound is getting "wider and deeper". I'll just let it keep playing.....
TVAD: For me, I have several test discs that I know very well, having been present during the actual event. (Although being there is not a criteria, in my opinion, to knowing a disc well). I hear how the player distinguishes minute details and store them away in my memory.
For example, Lkdog has mentioned to me (and I concur) that since he has his SA-14 back from TRL (with their free updates) that he is hearing details that went un-noticed before ... that he is re-listening to his entire library of music, finding new details that were previously masked or blurred. As I stated above, I'm experiencing the same thing. Even old discs like Trio Jeepy have startling new details that I've never heard before and have a spooky realistic feel (and sound) to them.
This said, there is something to what we are both noticing and it has to do with our memory of these discs, some that we've been familiar with over a decade. I don't see Lkdog or I as "Supermen", nor am I directly questioning your cognitive powers or hearing acuity. I do know what I hear and what I remember, and I don't mind sharing my first hand experience to those here ... in the TRL SA-14 thread.
It is well established that the specifics of circuit and parts changes are not released by TRL. This is troubling to some people, others could care less if the outcome is something they are happy with. That said, I do know that they use some of that wire that goes into their reference power cords and that supposedly is the break in from hell for that stuff.
For whatever reasons, it has taken all of the 500 hours or more for the mods from them that I have had to really settle in. I just kind of enjoy the ride. My SA14 is at 324 hours with the upgraded mod.
Tvad-
It has improved over this time like most units usually do. The times I have noticed the most is when I have not listened to it for a few days and then play a CD. I agree, it is a mysterious and debate provoking process.
You are misunderstanding my question. I know TRL mods take up to 500 hours to break-in: but why? Other mods I have had done by companies such as Musical Concepts and SACDMods didn't take that long. I am guessing TRL uses special solder or leads that require the long break-in.
Sbayne: I've owned various Tube Research Labs amps and preamps since the early 90's. Every one of them has taken a while to break in, so it is common for their products.
TVAD: Most folks don't have memory lapses that prohibit them from remembering how a component sounded a few weeks back. Then again, maybe some guys "experimented" too much with mind altering drugs ... :)
No 500 hours break-in isn't normal. I've had a number of mods done by other companies on amps, preamps, cds, etc and after a couple hundred hours they usually reach their potential. The caps and transformers should be fully cooked by that time. I'm guessing they use a special kind of solder or leads.
La45, could you go into more specifics about the TRL 2000 tweaks?
Other than putting the unit on a DIY Symposium Ultra style isolation platform and mating it with a very good power cord I have so far resisted the temptation to open up the unit. Also using QuickSilver as recommended by other TRL fans.
I have tweaked lesser units with Dynamat Xtreme for damping, Stillpoints ERS for EMI/RFI attenuation, Auricap across the IEC inlet for AC noise filtering.
Although I haven't looked inside the unit, I am guessing that they already employ ERS in the mod. Scroll down to the bottom of this link and you will see TubeResearchLabs/CableResearchLabs as users of the ERS product.
Does anybody know why TRL mods take 500 hours to break-in? Thats 21 straight days of playing! What is it they do that requires this? I'm not really complaining because mine is sounding better every day - I'm just wondering.
All: Yeah, Brian got banged up pretty badly. Considering he drove in the median and his car traveled downward and landed on a lower highway, I can't believe he survived. Someone up there is watching out for him ... I'm happy that he is okay.
Oldpet: Have you got your SA-14 back yet? I very interested in your first impressions.
Cousin (La45): I hate to sound like a "broken record", but have you found the source to the anti-static sheets? I realize it is nearly impossible to source, just hoping that you have lucked out ...
All: My SA-14 is sounding incredible. I am embarrassed to say how much better it is now ... I'm very happy. (I'm only 1/2 of the way to fully broken in, so it keeps getting better. You TRL mod owners know what I'm saying).
Yeah. Lets start a new thread indeed. This has been so much fun. For anyone interested I have improved the 2000es TRL Sony by adding and reinforcing the transport mehanism. If you take a close look you will see the type of material used for the structure.
I am indeed enjoying my Sony TRL 2000es and it has more to go. Until I complete this hairbrain project I will reserve comment on how much the additional support helps the transport at a later time. For now my system is down as my tube amp has stopped working....bummer.
Just to clarify things a bit so folks are not alarmed-the car accident mentioned above involved only one TRL staffer-Brian Weitzel. He runs the Record Research Labs (LP cleaners, Shine OLA) part of of the business in addition to partnering with Paul on their amps, recording, and digital, medical, and IT work, and is overseeing the rollout of the new solid state ST -225 integrated amp. (Yes, they are very excited about it and yes they usually are pretty conservative about praise).
Anyway, Brian was involved in a single car accident coming home late on the Interstate from work one evening last month. No other TRL staff were present. He works a lot of hours in the TRL/RRL business and also has been diagnosed with sleep apnea. He dozed off briefly at the wheel and crashed. Thankfully and through the grace of God he survived with some significant, but not life threatening injuries. Thankfully also, no one else was involved in the crash and no one else was hurt. Brian was back to work after a couple weeks and is taking it a bit easier right now as he recovers.
That didn't stop him from lifting 30 cases on an order of the RRL LP cleaner to get out to FEDEX two weeks ago. He reaggravated his rib injuries that day. I told him that is what big brothers like Paul are for-to do the heavy lifting some times!
We all thank God Brian is recovering and it no doubt reaffirmed his strong faith that someone upstairs is looking out after him.
Please post your, and your friends, impressions of the ST-225.
Based on comments I recieved, in an email from Paul, I am thinking that this integrated is unbelievably good. I don't want to actually post Paul's words, but, he had some VERY high praise for the unit. You know how conservative Paul is with his opinion/praise of their work. :-) I have a preamp/amp set up - If the ST-225 is THAT good, maybe I can save some space. I don't know what the pricing is, on the unit, though. Let us know. (Maybe we'll have to start a new thread.)
Let us know how it turns out as it breaks in. I am guessing it will be similar to the SA14 in many ways. Break in takes time-they seem to see the 500 hour mark as pretty standard on their mods. My expereince with two TRL digital mods is that it pretty much is changing a lot for the first 300 hours. After that it is more incremental changes. I do think they use some of the wire internally to the IEC connection that they also use in their High End power cords that Jsala has mentioned. The break in on that wire alone is long from what I hear-hence part of the 500 hour process.
Shuang -
They do have the ability to order new units from Marnatz. You could check with them about pricing on an 8260 and get their opinion on how it compares to the Sony 2000 which is a very special unit in it's own right.
Oldpet-
I will be seeing and hearing the ST-225 integrated solid state amp next week. My friend here in Agon (tmoore) is trying it out with his Soundlabs. He gets it tomorrow. I have talked to someone who has one. He is very very impressed. Claims it may be the best he has ever heard and he has been doing this hobby for 3 decades. I may get to try it out in my system also when my friend has evaluated if it works in his setup.
I purchased the unit used for $550 on Audiogon. There is one for sale right now for $495 on Audiogon which is a great deal. I'm surprised its lasted this long. I don't think TRL sells new units for modding. Initial impressions are the low bass is greatly improved but the mids and highs need to settle down - they aren't bad but just not what I expected. I'll let you know more later.
I currently own a TRL Sony 2000ES. TRL purchased the new unit for me, modded it, then shipped it to me in Canada.
Are they in a position to purchase new SA-8260s like the Sony 2000ES?
Like others, I am really hoping the SA-14 younger sibling is an over achiever. I really like my 2000ES but the thought of getting near SA-14 performance at an SA-8260 price makes me drool.
PS: How much did you/TRL pay for the new SA-8260 unit?
Got my Marantz SA-8260 back from TRL today. There was a car accident wherein a number of TRL's employees were injuried so their turn around time has been slower than normal. Will start burn-in tonight and hopefully post some comments in a week or so. A number of you have emailed me about my 8260 since I had posted about it earlier. I just wanted to let you know the status.
Thanks! I have mine on the Custom setting... that's how it was when it arrived from TRL. No problems with my set up but I'll try the Normal setting once the SA14 + metal python (aka CRL Silver Series power cord) are fully broken in. I have not listened for a few days since I have been away.
I talked with Brian about it and they felt from their testing after modding that putting it on the Custom setting was the best sounding. Yes, the Custom setting supposedly allows a greater frequency range if I recall correctly. Maybe you could check with Brian or Paul about your specific preamp/amp, but I am guessing that it is no problem as I recall you have a very nice setup. There may be some amps that do not handle this, but I don't know what they criteria are.
Hi all, I was wondering if someone could tell me what the 2 different filter settings on the SA14 are supposed to do. I do not have the manual (I bought my SA14 used). I believe the Custom is supposed to allow ultrasonic frequencies (>20Khz) through?
I believe that RAM does an SA11 mod for $3500. There may be some info at their site.
I believe TRL has some SA11 mods planned for a couple users at their standard fee of $550. Paul is optimistic it will turn out well, but they will need to do some R&D as they are different units.
Power cords are kind of Black Art/voodoo thing. While I firmly believe that a good aftermarket power cord is critical-which one is sort of mystifying. Early on in my audio ventures I just made the Crump/Asylum volex cords and they seemed to be a big step up from the crummy stock cords. Would love to hear from all about what power cords they feel work best with the TRL SA14 unit (or digital units in general).
I am using a Ven Haus Audio power cord that is specific for digital, but he has newer versions that are supposedly better.
Yup, the CRL Silver power cord is a tough, heavy snake to wrestle into place. If you order one do make sure that it is longer than you need since you'll need the extra length to bend it. Mine has been playing 24x7 for over 4 weeks and I still don't think it is burnt in... but I guess the good news is that my system will be sounding better in the coming weeks. I still haven't tried the Quicksilver so I guess I have 2 good things to look forward to (3 if you count the future update to the latest mod spec).
At some point I will compare the CRL Silver PC with the Bolder Cable Nitro, which I have on my preamp and both balanced power supplies (I also have 1 for my digital source which has not been used since I got the SA14). The Nitro is dynamic and is very flexible. Its a step up from your usual Belden-based power cord. Since I already own both power cords, I can only benefit from the comparison!
Jack - It's good to hear that you're enjoying your new player. :-) It really is a satisfying machine. After it breaks in, you'll find that you are just listening to your music. Not pondering your machine. Very satisfying. :-)
I'll be without mine until it returns from the mod upgrade. Onward and upward.
Oldpet: I understand your concerns, I use the CRL Gold cable on my SA-14, which is significantly larger than the Silver. I've found that the cable takes about 2 to 3 minutes of bending to get it configured to where it will stay put. The good news is that once it is bent, it stays where it should.
All: My SA-14 is still very fresh and even though I know that it is going through its' dirty stage of break in, I find it hard to leave the listening room. This player is so dynamic!
Jsala - Yikes! And i thought the shipping from NJ was bad. ;-)
I was goint to try the CRL Silver cord, but I've read that it is really difficult to maneuver and takes forever to burn in. So, for the time being, I'll stick with my Signal Cable High Current Digital power cord. It seems to do the job very well.
I got an email from Brian earlier this weekend. Its very nice of them to give a free upgrade. Too bad shipping from Hong Kong is ~$320 round trip!
My SA14 has been burning in for a month now. I would imagine that the redbook section is fully burned in now (I have played red book 95% of the time). But, the CRL Silver power cord is a big thick beat with lots of metal in it so I think it still has a bit to go before it fully settles in. The refinement has improved in the past few days.
Yep. Mine is headed back on Monday. It is amost unbelievable to think that the TRL guys are updating their modded SA-14s free of charge. Customer support and customer loyalty! - the TRL guys are special, and a pleasure to do business with. Brian said that I'm "in for a real treat". I can hardly wait. :-) I'm building a special box for shipping. It's also interesting how they find new ways to improve their work - through medical equipment testing. Wow!
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