Psychicanimal, I make no promises, but this is the last from me on the never ending analogue/vinyl vs. digital/CD debate: on the inherent musicality of a system as judged by a third party who is not into this audiophile thing, I can take the case of my wife. The first thing she mentions when coming into the room when an LP is playing music with less than a relentless musical groove to hide the surface noise is that there is so much noise present. On the other hand, when I got a home trial of the Arcam FMJ CD 23 (which I ended up buying despite what is probably also to you a well known phrase: "but you have a CD player") she was amazed at the difference between my JVC 1010 in terms of the oft-touted "musicality" and opined that it simply sounded more like musical instruments than its predecessor. And this is a machine that many consider entry level into better CD reproduction. Briefly put: in the roughly ten year span between these two machines a lot has been accomplished in CD reproduction which is not apparent in the measured performance. What has happened is "musicality" that rivals that of analogue/vinyl even in the handicap race always proposed between the two, and which surpasses it when background and impulse noises are part of the equation (which they should, since I can't buy the arguments that you can simply dismiss these two distinct and intrusive noises while concentrating on the detailed, relaxed and liquid analogue presentation). My most basic point is that unless you have compelling reasons to get into vinyl (inter alia, inheriting an analogue rig and/or a decent LP collection), one would be better to concentrate resources on what is the current generally accepted system of music reproduction, unless that is the "hobby" aspect of analogue/vinyl is too tempting, in which case the person, such as the original poster who still can't believe what his simple question engendered, should set himself a budget and get a good used turntable of Linn, VPI, SOTA or Oracle manufacture (or other manufacture where parts are still available) along with a decent arm (which is probably already installed on the tt), together with a new cartridge. That same person could also give one of the better CD players a listen and then decide if all the negatives attributed to CD reproduction, such as aggressive highs, lack of detail, lack of warmth, no toe-tappingness and other now time-worn and un-applicable clichés, are real or simply a rehashing of twenty year old biases, and maybe save some money in the process. |
Pbb, I think Sedond has it right on the money. He's been telling me about the modded ART di/o for MONTHS! Then I read that the VMPS speaker was best of the CES. The DAC? Modded ART di/o. If one combines this with professor Van Alstine's argument of using a cheap transport (that's what he used in his demo at the Chicago Audio Society) with a good DAC then one is set. Bueno. No need to spend a lot of money. Shouldn't for digital anyway. It's just ones and zeros...
Ken, please forgive us. If you like old music or have a collection of LPs, go for it. Keep it simple. I ordered the tonearm fluid damper for my TT last week and should get it anytime. Please e-mail me if you have any questions.
Hey man, I'm waiting for a record I got on ebay. It's the band that played in my ninth grade ball. Not on CD, extremely hard to get. Lots of impulse noise. But even more HOT street salsa music to make you forget about the noise!
Pbb the only thing I can see about your complaining of all that impulse noise is two reasons: Perhaps you listen to classical music almost exclusively (which indeed does have a lot of low volume passages in which I also consider the noise unacceptable) and/or maybe you don't really know how to take care of your vinyl (including proper cartridge setup).
As usual, there is no conclusion...get used to it, Ken!
Later, |
I have always been almost maniacal in my care of LPs. And yes I listen to a lot of classical and jazz, but believe me blues is often heard in my room and rock also. As to the source of my disdain for surface noise, true enough solo flute or classical guitar or even orchestral music on soft or silent passages is what done it! Too bad we never did get analogue systems without the physical contact of stylus and groove! Some time ago, a system using optical means of pick-up was developped and marketed. Wrong time, it got killed by CD. |
I wouldn't invest in a classical music vinyl collection, for sure. I've bought a few at record stores very cheap but it's not worth it, in my opinion. The noise would just get to me, especially as it gets worse with time.
Pbb, have you read "What to Listen for in Music" by Aaron Copland? |
The son of a lawyer I worked with lent me a copy years ago and, honestly, I did not get very far in my reading it. I've read so many articles on music and audio over the years that I probably have some patchwork equivalent in my brain. Why? |
I took a class in freshman year in college: Sound Sense and Idea. A musicology class that is. We read the book, as well as another one I don't remember...
You should read the book. I'm pretty sure analog will start making sense to you.
From your posts I think you could benefit from getting truly emotionally involved with the music. I had my reality check which awakened me many yeas ago...that's one of the reasons I use a modded 1200 instead of a belt drive. I have made a discipline of getting involved with the music, not the equipment. I do have a cultivated ear, but the music goes first. I truly enjoy my Svetlana and Dvorjak's Columbia Classisc LP after all these years of impulse noise being accumulated. I get connected to the spirit of the music. That's what's really important. That's why I've chosen my components to be musical above any other quality. I have a friend who's into really high end stuff*, but he ALWAYS drools with my software, ¿comprende? "Where do I get all this music" is his question...
* B&W 801's, Krell Class A beast, Klyne SK-5A preamp, SOTA vacuum TT, etc. |
Now I'm totally confused. Aaron Copeland was an analogue-type guy? And analogue can get me more emotionally involved with the music, but, if I understand, not with classical music, since you would not buy an LP collecton of classical music and, therefore, would go the digital/cd route for classical. Have I missed something here? Yes, perplexed and totally confused! |
Read again. Then meditate about it. I'm trying to put you in the right frame of mind.
Kind of like a Lifespring exercise...
www.lifespringusa.com |
FROM ONE OF THE TNT GUYS:
My front end consists of a Wadia CD player, Sota Star-SapphireTT, ET2.5 Air Bearing Arm, Grado Reference cartridge ( low output), Audio Research phono preamp. I purchased most everything second hand but believe that
the new cost of the analogue/ digital rigs to be comparable in the US$5000 range. (do I get points off for not having a DAC?) :-)
The Wadia came first (it took me six years or so to collect my set up even with used prices.) and had not had a TT in many years. I was ecstatic about the sound coming from the CD through a tube amp and electrostatic speakers and thought this must be heaven. Wanting to be transported away by the music, I put on Schwarzkopf singing the Four
Last Songs of Strauss from the Angel/EMI release. It was sweet, smooth and silky with nothing standing out or distracting evident from stereo but in the fourth verse of "Im Abendrot" the climax and resolution of the piece " O spacious, tranquil peace, so profound in the gloaming."
hits a brief major note and has in the past sent shivers through me and at times brought a tear to my eye. Much to my dismay and a blow to my pride in my new setup there was none of that. It was beautiful for sure but distant.
How could this not beat the pants off my bottom of the line BIC TT, cheapo Sure cartridge and Lafyette receiver. Perhaps because it was distant memories.
Eventually my analogue setup came around and I pulled out the original Schwarzkopf. As you can probably guess, at this point all of the involvement was there in the original LP that was lacking from the CD. I played both versions and found the difference in involvement to be eye opening and to this day is my favorite CD/LP comparison for friends
who don't know LPs.
I've thought of getting a DAC to see if that would help level the field but am waiting for something in that class to be found used. Does anyone have a suggestion? The CD has a recording chain of AAD. I have a few other CD/LP comparisons on hand that give similar results and music has
moved me on CD but just more so and more frequently on LP.
Now to really stir up trouble. The 1960 DGG pressing of the Beethoven 9 Symphonies with Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic blows the pants off, dynamically speaking, the CD reissue. In the slow movement of the 7th. I've never heard such pianissimo and such forte. It is a perception
though, I've not measured it.
The Wadia is great and it gets used often, but if I want to be moved, LP is the thing.
Regards,
Michael |
psychic, have yer buddy mikey try a modded art di/o. at $200-$350, depending on who does the mods, he shouldn't have to wait for something used... may not get him all the way there, but it will likely get him a lot closer... ;~) doug s. |
Thanks everybody. This thread has been most interesting. I just sat back and watched. I still don't understand why Pbb bashed analog in this thread. What are the moderators for anyway? So that we don't use obscene langage?
Psychic, you definitely have a peculiar approach to all this. I understand why you defend the DJ turntable. You don't want to worry about upgrades, tweaks and just keep focused on the music.
Sedond, are you 'obsessed' with that Art di/o? You seem to be a closet analog type to me.
I take that getting any properly matched analog rig will bring pleasure. It's now a matter of finding the best deal for me.
Ken |
Is the analogue community a gated community? I was convinced of the reasonableness of my various blurbs. I guess Bishopwill put it less in pamphlet form than I did, and I thank him for his good sense. I can see it now: two sold out digital-types playing good cop/bad cop with the "analogue community". Not to leave everyone convinced of my intellectual or hearing deficiencies I have two things to add in closing on analogue/vinyl: 1st) I still believe that in some critical aspect the best reproduction of music I have heard was from direct-to-disc analogue/vinyl LP. Why? The initial attack of the music, its leading edge was the closest to actual live music; 2nd) as pointed out by the Bishop, there is liquidity (or to put it another way, a fine texture) in analogue/vinyl, but it is a fleeting experience, to me at least, gone as soon as the impulse noise breaks the spell. At the risk of repeating myself, more power to those who can hear through it. I still believe that one is better off upgrading within one format, than splitting the available cash between two formats. By the way music, whether reproduced in one format or the other, when it's just right, can still put me in a sort of trance, it casts a spell and takes me away, but that has to do more with the performance and the performers and not the mechanics of its reproduction. Being moved by music does not require much in the way of reading, and certainly no self-improvement course. Elvis Costello said something to the effect that talking about music is like dancing about architecture. I have been moved to tears by music playing on my kitchen radio and have felt singularly unmoved by audiophlie recordings of inferior performances on high res sytems. Let's get back to music qua music. Regards one and all, whatever your avocation. |
ken, don't let psychic fool ya - dint he mention that he just ordered a trough to further tweek his 1200? ;~) ya, i *am* a bit obsessed w/the di/o - after 20 years of digital, i can *finally* enjoy the music, much in the same way i enjoy my analog rig. and, no, i don't have to worry much about upgrading & tweeking the analog rig. well, no more than psychic, anyway. o-l came out w/a new-n-improved rb250 modded arm that i may have to get, replacing my present o-l arm. well, it's silver, & it'll *look* nicer! :>) doug s. |
May I remind you, Pbb, that people have sex like an instinctive event? However, it was under commisioning of the ancient Chinese emperors that Taoist medical sexual research began. What Masters and Johnson were doing in the sixties the Chinese had done way better some 2,500-3,000 years ago. There's a book titled "Tao of Love and Sex" that briefs and explains the findings so that Westeners like you and me can have a more enjoyable life. I had a friend of mine buy the book and told me his married life has increased a hundred fold...
Just when we think we know...the same goes for music. |
I thinks it's great that you want to get into analog as it's my belief that analog is the state of the art in music. Digital is the state of the art in salesmanship. CD's should be relegated to new recordings not the tried and true of the glorious past. And, since there are no sonic differences between new and used cd's, buy used. I've purchases 5 new titles released this month, highest paid $6.99.
If you were confused before starting this thread you must be close to insane at this point. There is some good information provided but there are a couple of obious questions not asked by you or answered by the repondents.
My assumption is that you do not own any siginificant albums. If true, have you investigated where in yhou rcommunity vinyl can be purchased? If not, do this first. If you are depending on ebay, internet sites or, mail order houses (we all know who they are) you are going to need deep pockets. There are really no bargins, or sales, just stuff they haven't sold. I am an experienced collector of 40 years. At this point in the record-collecting hobby,vinyl is an exercise in dinminished returns. The reissue business of vinyl is hardly stable,so unstable it qualifies as a fad now. MOFI and DCC both went out of business withMOFI going out twice. The reason are irrelevent, gone is gone. The fact that you can find most of their prosucts on internet auction houses daily show there isn't a market for this stuff in any large sense. These companies sold there new products for $25. You can buy
it now for $39 dialy only no one is buying it now. Do a search on ebayand then do a completed search and compare/
Original vinyl and the pursuit thereof can be and is an extremely fun porcess. And, with the advent of excellent cleaning products, your own experimentation, you might surmise(as I did) that the reissues do not exceed the originals in sound quality, (although they may at times sound good but good doesn't mean better). Which leads to my suggestion.
Split the difference. If you are going to get into analog at this date get a used Rega 25 (I'm getting one myself)They are plentiful and an excellent starting or stopping point. The person you buy it from will not have abused it and more likely will want to update it not because there is anyhing wrong with the table but because he just can't help it. That's part of the audiophile syndrome. A used Rega Planar 25 can easily be had for $700 - $1000/ You can always update sound quality by changing the cartridge a fun process. I would suggested the Music Hall but the Rega company has been around since the late 1980's and shoould you need service or a part (belts etc.) chances are the Rega company will still be around in some form. There have been many companies who's products were herald as you can't live without them you gotta have em now it will get no better (SOTO/APPOGEE/COUNTERPOINT) who are all gone now. Again it's not relevent as to why really, if you need service or a part, good luck. If you take the plunge into analog the best investment you can make is in a good cleaning system in conccruence with your intial plunge. I prefer a combination of two systems: a VPI cleaning machine (ESSENTIAL BUY ANY OF THEM) and the newly introduced Disc Doctor solutions and brushes.
As for cd's and SACD, to me it's not worth the signifcant amounts of monies needed to get good just like analog sound ( which I already have). Record companies continually change formats when the creative well dries. Let those with the money to waste. waste theirs. The only caution I have for you is that the Rega cartidges all hum. I have had four independent experiences with Rega + Rega setups. In all four systems,the Rega cartridges hummed. And it's always my fault (my being my small group of audio cohorts). Ask the dealer,importer etc. All are working great with different cartdiges now. The only other caution would be to completely ignore any unsolicted emails you get from dealers. Dealers deal. They want to sell you something before the next guy does. Nuff said.
And do us all a favor, let us know what you decide,but, don't start anymore thraeds like this!! (ha)
Best of Luck |
Excellent post, Trebleclef.
Well, almost...you ought to listen to a modded 1200. The fluid damper brings the best of this unit. It's truly world class sound. I have been using damping on and off with my previous TT. Still have one of those old Disctracker headshell damping devices. Fluid damping makes a big difference in performance--just ask SME. |
Psycho: Agreed on the fluid damping. Well Tempered did a variation of it, one of it's considerable strong points. I couldn't afford it at the time. I'm not sure that Wax wants to join the buy and modify group as opposed to buy and start enjoying right away. The only real problem with modifying or buying something that has been, is, why was it modified in the first place? Unsatisfactory performance? Alot has been written about room acoustics and interaction. Everyone has a different take on this as we all listen in different environments under our own pereceptions. A modified piece of gear will sound different in a different environment, which may or may not be good. I love my set up the way it is now. Instead of buying new speakers which may or may not have 1)solved my problem or 2)improved the sound, I had to really decide what was wrong. Highs were suffering a little. What to do? New speakers, better stands?
Niether. Got a different chair which put the tweeter at the right hieght. Spent the difference on records. But, my local audio dealer almost stroked out.. |
Very droll original post.
Check out Nottingham Analogue series TTs.
I've got an Interspace - the first in the series.
You won't find many criticisms of NOT.
Try them - you may then laugh at all the relevant preceding replies. |
Well after reading all this confusion I'm just glad I went big into 8 track tapes.
Sincerely, I remain |
Ken, why don't you go listen to some variety of TTs? It's really not that hard. After you hear a particular TT(s), all this DD/BD and "performance" BS becomes meaningless. If you do not want to modify or spend a lot of time adjusting your TT, then a Rega 25 will work just fine. It's a very nice sounding TT without modifications or hassle, REALLY. If you wanna go for a little extra, then add a heavyweight. It is a super-simple mod.
As for the RB arms. E. Phonos complaints with the rega arms are on thread comparing it to an SME V ($3k), and were limited to the lack of VTA and a relatively imprecise anti-skate mechanism. I also find these problemsa little annoying. But Regas are not "world class" arms. Did I miss something? Were they meant to be? As for the arms ruining cartridges, there seems to be little evidence for that (E. Phono neglected to add any) and more evidence that is they don't. I haven't heard of anyone using the best, expensive MCs on a Rega, but there seems to be a total lack of complaints about the arm damaging the carts more often used on the RBs. I'll be sure to let you know if my arm bends my cantilever in a couple hundred hours, though. |
