It is a mystery to me how a belt drive table "sounds" compared to DD?
Shouldn't all tables sound, well like nothing?
I have a belt drive table. With a good quality pressing, all I hear is the record as delviered by the cartridge in the tonearm. I hear nothing extraneous from the tt itself that I can identify.
I used to sell various belt and direct drive turntables years ago and also do not recall hearing any inherent differences between the two drive mechanisms. I don't even recall other knowledgeable salespersons making such a claim. The turntable was either quiet or not and the sound was a result of the cart, tonearm and record playing.
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A couple of things:
First, I went to check out AA's alleged 'DD bashing' and couldn't find it -- could someone direct me? It's been years since I perused their offerings, so all I could determine was that they had no DD TT's for sale.
Second, it's axiomatic that in mechanical systems, the fewer moving parts the better (the differences between German and British automobiles are a perfect example ;-) "Better" BTW applies to lo-maintenance as well as hi-performance.
That said, the cost and process of implementation become key factors. When it comes to turntable design (and without going into the "characteristic sonics" BD v. DD v. ID), it turns out that the elegantly simple direct drive design can be more expensive to build compared to a belt drive TT of equal performance -- up to a point! (my personal opinion is that Micro Seiki reached that 'point' with their belt drive TT's some time ago) Beyond that point however, throwing more money at a BD design will not IMO result in any measurable performance increase. Why? Count the parts! (Same goes for ID TT's)
So, for speed accuracy and freedom from mechanical artifacts (rumble, vibration, mechanical resonances) and maintenance bordering on 'zero', the DD TT is the ultimate mechanical solution. But you can't "cheap out"! Well, actually, you CAN, but a cheap DD is worse than a cheap BD, and that's where the bad rap came from. In the beginning ;-) you see, it was so inexpensive to produce a reasonably good performing BD TT (Rek-o-Kut, AR, and beyond) compared to a reasonably performing DD, that nobody bothered with DD's after that, except the utterly shameless Japanese, who turned out some amazing machines! Of course they cost more than Western BD's, so for us Westerners, BD's ruled for years. Even the new $300K Goldmund Ref. II uses a belt!
Sonics are another matter, can vary widely, and depend on many factors in addition to the drive design. Sonic accuracy, neutrality, and control are hallmarks of the best DD turntables, but they can be found (occasionally ;-) in other designs as well.
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Cdk84
I agree.
So why do people continue to trash direct drive turntables?
And can anyone describe general characterstics of the sound of a belt drive turntable, such that it might explain some listeners preferences?
I am going to go back to the future with direct drive. |
I'm a little surprised not to see Albert Porter's efforts with the Technics SP 10 Mks II and III mentioned in this thread. If you are a purist, and want only to discuss unmodified vintage DD TTs, then read on only at your peril.
Mr Porter has, in the Forum, described his modification and updating first a Lenco, then a Technics Sp10 Mk II and now a Mk III TT, developing each toward its performance envelope with trial and error. During that time he also owned a top of the line JA Michell table.
While I haven't pursued the thread about the Lenco, Albert describes clearly his development of the SP 10 TTs. An anecdote he mentions in conversation, though not in print, is a showdown between his Michell Proscenium and Technics SP 10 Mk III tables.
JA Michell was in the room, performing every tweak he knew for the turntable of his own design. The Technics table, in Albert's proprietary plinth (Panzerholtz sandwiching Bass wood with aluminum interleaf, lead weight, brass tonearm mounting flanges, etc) with an SME 312S (12") tonearm was, *by mutual concensus* dusting the Michell's performance into the weeds. Cartridges were matching Air Tight PC-1s.
This is not a testament to Albert Porter. It *is* intended to acknowledge what initial quality of design, full development and execution, and meticulous setup can achieve using a vintage DD TT.
The price point of the Mitchell TT is not relevant; what may be of note is that Mr Porter sold the Mitchell and has kept the Technics table. The very latest technology is not paramount: it's how it's applied that matters.
If a 1970's-made DD table can be brought to a reference level of performance, going head to head with one of the very best of today's TTs (using, one would think, the finest of currently available materials and technology) it tells me a lot about the Technics' initial quality of conception --in the engineering sense-- and about the learning amassed in the interim that, when applied with diligence, can give lifelike renderings of The Music. I believe that's what a few of us are seeking in pursuit of the high end. It would seem that it can be done, and done very well. |
In the latest Audio Advisor catalogue, I noticed they are going out of their way to bash direct drive turntables, while hawking Regas and other belt drive turntables.
Are that many people selling direct drive turntables again that they need to defend a different niche?
Or the assumption is that the average person reading their catalogue already has a direct drive turntable?
To me it didn't make any sense, but then again, neither does their choice of "models". |
Technics 1200. They still slam with a Ortofon Black, Red, Bronze or Red cartridge. |
TW RAVEN AC3 also RAVEN BLACK NIGHT!! Great build quality wonderful sound easy to use ETC. |
Try a Gale GT2101 on. Magnetic bearing, isolated subchassis, digital control from 1 to 99 RPM, with looks to die for! |
1.YAMAHA PX2
2.MARANTZ TT1000
These still in my room. PX2 have the best sound. But,TT1000
Is the most beutyful. |
Marantz TT1000 MkI & MkII (manufactured and co-designed by Micro Seiki) |
Hmm.
Maybe i can be of help here. I have had virtually all the rare direct drive decks from japan.
The very best, which is strange, is the broadcast Denon DN-308 with the DP-100 motor unit. Its a big beast and ultra rare but worth the hassle.
The technics sp-10 mk3 is a stunning table.
Denon DP-100 also up there with the best.
1. Denon DN-308
2. Denon DP100 and Technics SP-10mk3
3. Pioneer Exlcusive P3
4. Nak T-1000 (when its working properly)
5. Sony PSX9
6. Yamaha GT-2000X
7. Micro Seiki DDX1500 and Pioneer P10
I've had more but you asked for direct drive. |
Just picked up a Nakamichi TX-1000 turntable. Installed a Fidelity Research Fr-66s tonearm and an Audio Note IO2 Cartridge on it. It sounds absolutely fabulous. This is the best analog setup I have ever owned. Beats my Oracle/SME combo any time of day and also my fully tricked up Michell Gyrodec/SME/Rega RB300 setup.
The speed and pitch stability is second to none and it runs very quiet.
Here are a few good DD choices IMO
1. Nakamichi TX-1000
2. Technics SL-1000 (SP-10 with obsidian base)
3, Denon DP-100
4. Micro Seiki DDX 1000/1500
5. EMT |
I'm a proud owner of a Sphinx Project 6 DD turntable ,Dutch brand , only 5 made , based on a JVC DD motor (like the Goldmund Studietto ),arm is the airbearing Eminent ET ,cart. the Dynavector 17 mk2 , in my opinion
a hard to beat combination.Of course the pre-pre is Audio
Research PH 5. |
In no particular order:
Nakamichi TX 1000
Technics SP 10 (all of them)
Goldmund Studio and Studietto
EMT 938;948;950
Thorens TD 524 and 535 (made by EMT)
My own favourites are the EMT's. The best record players known to man and untweakable. |
Cwlondon, the Linn LP12 is a "finicky" table, which requires specific knowledge to set up properly. I can understand if you had a frustrating experience with it. I, however, am a factory trained Linn setup technician, and had no trouble at all keeping my LP12 in top operation order.
For those with similar experiences to Cwlondon, perhaps a simple direct drive table might be a good choice, or even some other more easily set up belt drive tables. You'll find that an unsuspended TT is much easier to set up, regardless of drive system used.
I don't mean to sound harsh about my assessments of these tables. I just want to provide some perspective about the various levels of performance available from certain designs and implementations. |
I'm still using, and happily, a Denon DP-72F. 40+ pounds of Rosewood, and their best "servo-tracer" arm. Mated to a V15VxMR, it has satisfied my vinyl fix, and my sense of esthetics very nicely. And it was under $800 in '86, if I remember correctly. |
Nsgarch- Thanks for the fantastic link to all those vintage DD tables. I felt 25 years younger just browsing thru that website. Rod1957 |
My trusty Sony PS X800 really has no faults that I can specifically identify. Neglecting for the moment the linear tracking servo controlled arm, consider just the DD table.
There is no speed variation. This is evident using a strobe disc, and by listening to test tones (listening for waiver).
There is no pickup of noise from the motor.
Rumble is as low or lower than my old belt drive table which had a large diameter oil-soaked bearing.
It rotates the LP at a correct and uniform rate, while transmitting little vibration to the LP, or magnetic field to the pickup. Can someone tell me what it is not doing?
Now this DD turntable was not a cheap product, costing about $1000 in 1980. Perhaps, (and I think it so) Sony engineering did a good job on this product. |
I loved the look, feel and performance of the beautiful Denon DP-60L. 30 pound high finish rosewood block with brushed aluminum tome arm/ |
Well "Rod1957"
I only know of three which qualified as the top direct-drive turntables of all time. And they are:
(01). ReVox 780 with Swing Around Linear Tracking Tone Arm
(02). Any Higher-End Denon in the DP Series
(03). Technics SL-1200 MkII (and if I could recall correctly, Technics had a bunch of other models with the Quartz Locked Direct-Drive System back in the late 1970's/early 1980's)
(04). And I am sure that there were others as well, I just couldn't recall right off the bat.
--Charles-- |
Both twl and cwlondon make valid comments. But in both cases they cover only a portion of the field. Again, for a more complete and comprehensive history of the subject, as well as a detailed technical discussion, I'd like to refer you all to the DD website at:
http://de.geocities.com/bc1a69/index_eng.html
It's thoroughly researched and nicely presented. |
Twl
I am a fan of your thinking and writing, but with respect, perhaps you are being a little harsh here.
Sure, its true there were tons of mass marketed, crap DD turntables in the 70's.
Cheap lightweight plastic cases, silly strobe lights, lousy arms, jerky semi or fully automatic operation.
They were perfectly matched to similarly mass produced receivers with vinyl veneered MDF cabinets and boasting ".04% Total Harmonic Distortion"
(Even then, I dont think they were quite as sleazy as "Coby"?! although you made me laugh!)
What I remember as well, however, were many high end attempts at turntables based on the popular drive technology of the time.
Denon made a number of high end ish turntables. The Kenwood had a resin (?) base that was unusually heavy and granite like -- as I said a cult high end favorite. The Yamaha PX-2 was direct drive and also an excellent table, especially when tweaked with platter mats and record clamps.
I am no Michael Fremer, but in my experience, suspensions, platter surfaces, arms, cartridges and set up -- especially record cleaning and preparation -- have always had a much bigger impact on performance than the presence or absence of microphonic vibration through the spindle or something.
And maybe I had the wrong match for an arm and cartridge, but for me, my years with a Linn LP12 were the unhappiest analogue years of my life. I never liked that turntable, found it sensitive and finicky and never enjoyed it.
I am not loyal to direct drive or belt drive. For sheer coolness alone, I have always coveted a top of the line VPI with an SME V or something, but in the absence of spending the big bucks, would consider a vintagey DD again.
Would love to hear your retort on any of this but that's the way I see it, I mean, heard it.
Best wishes. |
The Dual 701. One of the best of its time and very hard to find. |
Rod1957, in direct drive turntables of the vintage sort, the platter is actually part of the motor, and the spindle bearing is actually also the motor bearing.
Since motors vibrate, and since the motor bearing is not nearly built to as close-tolerance as a normal TT main bearing, there is unwanted movement in the platter of most of these vintage DD designs.
Additionally, there are spinning magnets(under the platter - part of the motor) which are very close to the cartridge at the inner part of the record. Since the platters are also metal, there is not much stopping magnetic effects of these spinning magnets on the cartridge magnetic fields.
Third, most of the vintage DD designs use a quartz-lock speed controller with a very lightweight platter, which results in "speed hunting", in a fairly audible "flutter" frequency, and gives unnatural sound overall, compared to other turntables.
Fourth, most vintage DD TT's were mass-market designs and cheaply produced out of plastic, and were never really anything out-of-the-ordinary, even when they were new. Most of the arms were quite poor(or at best - adequate), and sufficed primarily for the low cost MM cartridges that were expected to be placed on them.
Let's face it, these TT's were the "Volkswagen Beetle" of the time, and never were even intended to be thought of as anything very good. They were mass-market plastic equivalents of today's "Coby" CD player for $24.95
The better ones, like Micro Seiki and the higher level Denon, and the Technics SP10(and yes, even the SL1200) were a bit more expensive, aimed at a higher performance market, and did sound better than the cheap ones. However, ultimately they faded away as the belt-drive revolution took over and killed most of them off.
You can say what you want about belt-drives, but they did kill off most DD tables permanently. This was not an accident. |
I've had my Goldmund Studietto w/ JVC quartz-lock motor and SME V arm for almost 16 years now, and wouldn't part with it for anything. I know there are those who dismiss the Studietto, but I'll betcha they've never heard one with a great arm and without the springs. That's right -- I don't think sorbothane was available 16 years ago, but replacing the springs with sorbothane half spheres results in a mechanical system that's almost completely dead (great bass punch and clarity.) Just set it on a wall shelf, which is where all unsprung (and most sprung) TT's belong in my opinion, and you're good to go.
I recently lubricated the platter/motor spindle/bearing with van den Hul zirconium-oxide doped oil and there is absolutely no audible bearing/motor noise -- even at high volume levels playing silent grooves. And the platter speed has always been smooth and dead accurate.
For a beautifully designed website devoted to the DD TT, go to: http://de.geocities.com/bc1a69/index_eng.html
By the way, I seem to recall that the Goldmund Reference is a belt drive TT. |
Rod, Just for clarification, I was referring to the Technic's SP 10, the Kenwood from the L series (07?) and I forgot to mention the Nakamichi Dragon, which could even compensate for off center holes in LP's. You asked for the Best with no indicated reservations of value. I forgot about the Micro Seki tables mentioned by TWL. I would include them as well in my vintage list. Now if you just want good vintage TT's thats another list. |
kenwood L07D would make that list, too; special emphasis s/b placed on the Technics SP10 Mk II and Mk III as they were a material improvement over the earlier SP10 Mk 1 (if it was even called that).
It would be interesting to see a SP10 Mk II/III in a properly designed plinth and a quality platter. |
TWL, You disagree with me on vintage TT's, and I respect any
and all opposing views. (That's the purpose of this thread of course.), but can you please elaborate or share some further insight.And thanks for the list, but I believe most of the tables mentioned are vintage models.
Cwlondon, The KD-500 you mentioned sounds interesting, and I've heard good things about that model. And it's very affordable on the used market at the moment. Now were getting somewhere! Thanks Guy's, Keep it coming. |
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Some of my happiest high end memories took place when I was using a
Kenwood KD-500 direct drive turntable -- a high end cult favourite in the late 70's
Tweaky platter mat, some clay like stuff called "platter matter" stuck to the underside
a good record clamp
SME III fluid damped arm and a Grado signature cartridge
Not some thing you see every day on ebay but you could pick one up cheap when they come along
Good luck |
As Newbee said, I loved my Kenwood KP-5022A. IMO, this was the best reasonably priced DD vintage table from the '70's. Technics were much more common. They would take the abuse inflicted upon them by DJ work; the 5022A would not. Far superior fidelity from this Kenwood, though! Good luck finding one. If you're interested, I could see if the party to whom I sold it would be interested in selling it now. It would definitely need a tune-up, though. |
Don't agree with you on the vintage DD tables.
Anyway,
1) Rockport Sirius
2) Goldmund Reference
3) Micro Seiki DDX-1500
4) Micro Seiki DDX-1000
5) Denon DP-60L
6) Technics SP-10
7) Technics SL-1200
8) Revox 780?(DD w/linear arm)
9) Denon DP-55F
10)any more mass market japanese stuff |
For vintage DD tables, Technic's and Kenwood come immediatly to mind. Both are hard to come by (in excellent condition anyway) and the Kenwood is hard to find and fairly expensive. But, then you knew that........ |
