"Too much gain"? (Cary SLP05 question)


A few days or so ago, someone had revived an old Cary SLP 05 thread, and common to that discussion seemed to be the subject of too much gain. 

My first question is:  does compensating for too much gain by simply adjusting the volume knob knob down degrade the sonic quality?

My second (2 part) question relates to this quote from one of the replies in that thread:

 A quick note to Pass Labs and they suggested a pair of Rothwell 10db balanced attenuators into the amp’s inputs.

What exactly do balanced attenuators do to resolve this issue, and if placed between the preamp and the amp, would they degrade the signal path & therefore the sonic result out of the speakers?

I am a relatively new owner/operator of a SLP05 and it is in front of one of the earlier Cary V12s.  I did find those balanced attenuators on ebay for (I think I remember them being) $89 a pair, which I find totally doable.  I am lsitening in a (very) near field room right now, and it seem as if I do have a lot of gain.  Generally the big knob is on 9 o'clock plus or minus a little bit depending upon the source material I am listening to.  I am using the balanced ins and outs to & from my SLP05 and I have been given to understand that using RCAs would reduce the gain somewhat.  I do have some RCAs (I am presently using Kimber Silver Streak balanced interconnects) but my collection of spare RCAs is Kimber PBJ and Monsters. 

For $89 should I try putting a pair of those  of Rothwell 10db balanced attenuators into the balanced amp’s inputs?

 

immatthewj

@khloebo , from reading your posts I have no doubt that you are way more tech savvy than I am (and in case that sounds like it might be snark, I am totally sincere) and I didn’t put as much science and knowledge into the comparisons that formed my perceptions as you have.

I acquired mine in ’21 from Cary’s preowned page, and from my memories of the emails I exchanged before I pulled the trigger, it was 8 years old at the time (it is one of the ones with the indentations on the power supply for the preamp feet to sit on, although I don’t have mine set up that way).  When I called Cary on the phone (they will talk to you on the phone if you want to buy something) to close the deal, I decided that I may as well do The Ultimate Upgrade at the same time, and an added "bonus" would be free shipping (no free shipping on preowned, but if one was to send a preamp to cary for the upgrade, Cary would send it back after the work for "free") even though that meant that once the upgrade was done I owned it even if I didn’t like it.

But to understand where I am coming from with my perceptions of the SQ, up until that point I had been listening to a SLP-90 which I had owned since ’99.  And the SLP-90 replaced a B&K digital HT preamp, so as you can see, my experience playing with high quality preamps is, to say the least, limited).

The SLP-90 was a huge upgrade in SQ from the HT preamp, but it was starting to sound as if it was getting tired.  So the fact that I was listening to a 30 year old preamp probably has a lot to with why I like the SLP-05 as much as I do, although I will say that the SLP-05 sounds a bit (or maybe more than a bit) cool and clinical in comparison with my SLP-90.

As far as my balanced input tubes, that’s something else I am doing different that makes RCA vs XLR not a fair comparison.  A friend from another site turned me on to a literal plethora of PAIRS of vintage 6SN7s (note that I emphasized ’pairs’) so after playing around with those in the balanced slots, I did note that some of them really really shined.  At the moment I have a pair of National Union 6F8Gs (obviously with adapters) in those slots, and they really do it for me some nights.  And prior to putting those in, I was giving a pair of Sylvania ’52 Bad Boys an extended spin, and they were making me happy, but for different reasons.  I also found two different pairs of VT231s  in that plethora that I thought were audibly better than the rest, with my favorite being a pair of black glass RCAs which made detail and separation stand out much more clearly and cleanly. (There were also pairs out of that fore mentioned plethora that I was not sure if I heard any discernible difference or not, and there are actually pairs of both 6sn7s and 6F8Gs that I have yet to even try.)  

So with that all typed, I realize that you were making your observations re XLR vs RCA with all tubes being equal.  

Back to the pots:  what you typed about using the input level pots in conjunction with the main Alps pot was quite interesting, because in my near field environment I am usually at 9 o-clock + or - a bit, and that, of course, is with the input level pots turned all the way up.

My vision is not very good anymore and also I am a bit dense when it comes to understanding  this stuff, but it sounds as if what you have been saying is that to get the best SQ given some of my other limitations also means lowering the gain and if I am stubborn about XLRs the next best would be to upgrade the two input level pots and use them for volume control with the main pot turned all the way up?  Or at least set the upgraded inputs low enough so I can run the main Alps at 12 o-c-clock or close to it?

Forgive me  if that is not what you have been saying. 

(Okay, so now I note that you said that basically the Alps is not at its best at the bottom OR TOP quarter . . . meaning that I would not want to run it all the way up if I was combining it  with the input level pots for volume adjustment.)

Regardless, unless I am totally misreading, upgrading the input level pots is definitely recommended.  Even though I make no claims to be a tech, I do have experience soldering and de-soldering . . . how tricky a job is replacing the pots on this unit?    

Having said all that, nothing needs to be done when you love the sound, XLR or RCA. 

Well, there are nights that I am in love.  But who doesn’t want more and more love?

Hey, thanks for your contribution to this thread!

@khloebo 

very nice description of the workings of the SLP 05.  

right now my system sounds so good with the stock SLP non modded or upgraded.   For anyone interested I do have 3 matched pairs of a specific variety of Sylvania 6SN7s running every slot except the headphone amp.  The rectifier is a NOS made by mullard GZ34.   fyi the RCA smoked glass did not work out and neither did several other NOS notables.  

the tubes and rectifier made such an upgrade I recommend them to anyone with or thinking of an SLP05

@immatthewj   It sounds like we have essentially the exact same unit (depressions and all), excepting the ultimate upgrade.  I am curious, but the cost is definitely a factor.

The mix and matching is truly the appeal, with the variety 6sn7s out there.  If I dream and ignore consequences, it would be fun to remove the headphone stage, drill another pair of holes, then be able to choose from 3 input tube stages!  Crazy talk... 

Yes you have it, you could replace the pots with quality stepped attenuators.  I had to enlarge the holes a bit to fit the goldpoint 24 steps.  I thought about doing 47 but size was scary close, and digital attenuation below 20dB is totally fine if you want to go that way.  The main benefit was the improvement in clarity.  Running the alps at 12-2 o'clock wasn't bad, and if I did volume matched comparisons no Alps was better, but I will admit it was getting close enough that blind testing might prove me wrong.   But yes, I run digital -6db to -25db for music, the girls do the remote control Alps volume for TV roughly at 12 o'clock.  Input pots never change

I'm currently smitten with the Linlai e6SN7 tubes as a quad. 

@avanti1960 Now that you mention it, I should go back and see if the rectifier tube actually does anything for me.   I swapped in a mullard copper edge from Vintage Tube services, but didn't notice anything different at the time.  The time to swap just makes anything short of night and day really difficult to see.  Sounds like fun!

Glad everyone is enjoying happy listening though.

 

 

@khloebo , although you addressed this to  @avanti1960 

 I should go back and see if the rectifier tube actually does anything for me. 

I have rolled three 5AR4s (the original Sovtek, a GL, and a Mullard with Amperex brand on it) and I cannot say that anything reached out and slapped me on the face.  But with that typed, I do not possess golden ears and there may have been a difference that was subliminal, meaning the way I believe  my ear/brain connection works is that I may be enjoying something either more or actually less, but it is a subconcious type of thing that results in either pleasure or displeasure.  If that makes sense, because it is a concept that is hard for  me to put into words.  And it makes A/Bs hard to do for me.  

I also have a couple of 5AR4s that I picked up that I have yet to try yet--an actual Dutch Amperex and a Japanese tube . . . maybe a Nakamichi?  I’d have to go back and fid it and look at it.  Someone on ebay was once selling some 5AR4s that they were saying were the "Japanese Mullards" (which I had heard of before) and the way I was doing ebay binges,at the time, I am surprised now that I didn’t buy one of those also.

A PS on edit:  hogging out those holes for the upgrade pots makes be a tad nervous, I will have to think about that.  I may try to get back to you on this project.

Please note that Cary’s preamp gain is done BEFORE it reaches either the trim or main volume control.  The only thing that trim pots and the main volume control do is attenuate the signal.  The volume controls will not alter the noise floor as it has already passed through the gain stage. However, as one poster has pointed out, cheap volume pots have the ability to act as a filter.  
 

If Cary really wanted to offer an Ultimate Upgrade, they should address the volume pots which is the SLP 05 Achilles heal.