Someone keeps forgetting to type "I think" before "does".
Too good a post to waste
On a thread that is a running example of the textual equivalent of nonstop cat videos. So here it is again.
I could understand the cables are snake-oil doubters and take them seriously- in 1980. Back then there was no internet, Stereo Review was pretty much it, and Julian Hirsch was the Oracle of all things audio. Stereo Review and Julian Hirsch said if it measures the same it sounds the same. Wire is wire, and that was that.
Even then though J. Gordon Holt had already started the movement that was to become Stereophile. JGH took the opposing view that our listening experience is what counts. Its nice if you can measure it but if you can’t that’s your problem not ours.
Stereo Review and the measurers owned the market back then. The market gave us amplifier wars, as manufacturers competed for ever more power with ever lower distortion. For years this went on, until one day "measures great sounds bad" became a thing.
Could be some here besides me lived through and remember this. If you did, and if you were reading JGH back then, I tip my hat to you, sir! I fell prey to Hirsch and his siren song that you can have it all for cheap and don’t really have to learn to listen. Talk about snake-oil! A lot of us bought into it. Sorry to say.
But anyway like I was saying it was easy to believe the lie back then because it was so prevalent and also because what wire there was that sounded better didn’t really sound a whole lot better.
Now though even budget wire sounds so much better than what comes off a reel you’d have to be deaf not to notice. Really good wires sound so good you’d notice even if you ARE deaf! No kidding. My aunt Bessie was deaf as a stone but she could FEEL the sound at a high enough volume, knew it was music. The dynamic punch of my CTS cables is so much greater than ordinary 14 ga wire I would bet my deaf from birth aunt Bessie could "hear" the difference. Certain so-called audiophiles here, I'm not so sure.
Oh and not done beating the dead horse quite yet, according to my calendar its 2020, a solid 40 years past 1980. Stereo Review is dead and buried. Stereophile lives on. A whole multi-billion dollar industry built on wire not being wire thrives. Maybe the measurement people can chalk up and quantify from that just how many years, and billions, they are out of date and in denial.
I could understand the cables are snake-oil doubters and take them seriously- in 1980. Back then there was no internet, Stereo Review was pretty much it, and Julian Hirsch was the Oracle of all things audio. Stereo Review and Julian Hirsch said if it measures the same it sounds the same. Wire is wire, and that was that.
Even then though J. Gordon Holt had already started the movement that was to become Stereophile. JGH took the opposing view that our listening experience is what counts. Its nice if you can measure it but if you can’t that’s your problem not ours.
Stereo Review and the measurers owned the market back then. The market gave us amplifier wars, as manufacturers competed for ever more power with ever lower distortion. For years this went on, until one day "measures great sounds bad" became a thing.
Could be some here besides me lived through and remember this. If you did, and if you were reading JGH back then, I tip my hat to you, sir! I fell prey to Hirsch and his siren song that you can have it all for cheap and don’t really have to learn to listen. Talk about snake-oil! A lot of us bought into it. Sorry to say.
But anyway like I was saying it was easy to believe the lie back then because it was so prevalent and also because what wire there was that sounded better didn’t really sound a whole lot better.
Now though even budget wire sounds so much better than what comes off a reel you’d have to be deaf not to notice. Really good wires sound so good you’d notice even if you ARE deaf! No kidding. My aunt Bessie was deaf as a stone but she could FEEL the sound at a high enough volume, knew it was music. The dynamic punch of my CTS cables is so much greater than ordinary 14 ga wire I would bet my deaf from birth aunt Bessie could "hear" the difference. Certain so-called audiophiles here, I'm not so sure.
Oh and not done beating the dead horse quite yet, according to my calendar its 2020, a solid 40 years past 1980. Stereo Review is dead and buried. Stereophile lives on. A whole multi-billion dollar industry built on wire not being wire thrives. Maybe the measurement people can chalk up and quantify from that just how many years, and billions, they are out of date and in denial.
324 responses Add your response
Of course it is is possible that the same cable in two different systems COULD yield similar results, I do not believe anyone said that was not possible. Just not very likely unless all the components from both systems are similar in capacitance , impedance etc for the same functionality . With the vast profusion of equipment out there from many varied manufacturer Inc home brewed even, I would hazard a guess most unlikely. |
That makes us even since I never expect anything from you, U. And I’m never disappointed. Probably a huge failure of public school system. I have no idea why you even try to tangle with me, it must because you enjoy being kicked in the head, which if you don’t mind my saying so too much happened one too many times. 🤕 |
geoff is jealous of those who attended public schools. You see, the school he went to, he had to break big rocks into small ones. Actually that's where he got the idea for his little pebbles. But what he's really angry about, is he's the only attendee that never got a new sledgehammer for Christmas. 😄 |
MC "Can" means might, may, could. "Can" does not mean "does". Thus everything that follows is at best probability and imagination.“ While I have no knowledge of whether Almarg is a genius or a shill other than reading the quality of his posts and determining he is closer to the former, I find it fascinating that you are arguing against his comments and yet they allow for yours to be possible as well. He is laying out a thoughtful explanation of the science behind the Subjectiveness; In other words, YMMV. Not looking to pick a fight, I don’t really care enormously either way about cables, - if you want it and can afford it good to go- but what his point really drives home IMHO is the inconsistency in your position, that everything matters, and yet a single cable company, or one speaker company, or a contact enhancer company can solve every single need. By your own starting position- everything matters- reinforced my Almargs post- a variety of manufacturers cables would most likely be needed to meet all the variabilities.. I recognize and freely admit I am an audio dullard, but fully capable of debate. |
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Take your sides in the Al vs MC battle of the wits. Only you can decide who is who. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZSx3zNZOaU |
Funny. Truth is, almarg's position is nonsense. He claims a wire can give
"exactly opposite (or at least very different) results depending on the specific application". Exactly the opposite? Really? Good one. How about "at least very different" then? Well, define "very different". Since no two things are ever exactly the same gosh I guess he's got me. Except in that case, everything different, what has he really said? Nothing. Precisely my point. MC Yeah, no, not really. Almarg is doing the same thing the directionality people do when they point out there are in fact physical reasons that might explain directionality. Not saying any of almargs statements are wrong. Simply saying his conclusion, "exactly opposite (or at least very different) results depending on the specific application" is erroneous. Also notice when the same "logic" is used to to show there may be some basis for directionality those reasons are mocked and derided. While almarg is doing the exact same thing only not only does no one notice they actually compliment him on it. People are funny that way. Not looking to pick a fight, I don’t really care enormously either way about cables, - if you want it and can afford it good to go- but what his point really drives home IMHO is the inconsistency in your position, that everything matters, and yet a single cable company, or one speaker company, or a contact enhancer company can solve every single need. By your own starting position- everything matters- reinforced my Almargs post- a variety of manufacturers cables would most likely be needed to meet all the variabilities.. I recognize and freely admit I am an audio dullard, but fully capable of debate. Okay so first off I have no problem whatsoever stipulating everything almarg said is true and correct. Capacitance, etc can indeed cause things to sound different in different situations. Impedance too. Duh. What I am trying to do however is point out the inherent weakness and ultimate futility of this point of view. Almarg says wires can yield: exactly opposite (or at least very different) results depending on the specific application Now its really funny everyone seems so in love with this. Yet nobody actually acts as if they believe a word of it. Oh they say you do. But I will now prove they do not. Because if everyone really believed this then no one would be recommending any wire (or anything else) without saying it only works this way with such and such an impedance. Otherwise its "exactly the opposite (or at least very different)." Which no one ever does! Capacitance would be a standard specification right up there with speaker sensitivity, and frequency response, and amplifier output. Which last I looked, its not. In fact no one hardly ever talks about it, except every once in a while someone enjoys showing off his mastery of technical jargon. And audiophools (who don't even really understand a word of it) fall all over themselves congratulating him on his genius. Of course no wire ever made is capable of making anything its connected to sound exactly the same. Of course the physics of whatever its connected to does influence the performance. Duh. Congratulations. That's what I been saying: everything really does matter! Nevertheless we cannot conclude from this that everything works " exactly the opposite (or at least very different)" depending on what its connected to. If this was the case no one would read a review on anything. Why bother? If its going to sound completely different connected to different stuff, why bother? Riddle me that one, bat man. You all read reviews. Therefore, you really do not believe a word of " exactly the opposite (or at least very different)". No. In spite of however much electrical measurement jargon is thrown at it the fact remains any given wire (and tube, and transformer, and amp, and speaker, etc, etc on and on, forever) does indeed have its own recognizable sonic character. A character that does not magically transform itself into "exactly the opposite (or at least very different)" every time its plugged in. Neither does it have the power to make everything its plugged into sound exactly the same. How could it? How would one even know??? All we can hear is the resulting combination. So how could the premise even be tested? Its nonsense on stilts. Sophistry. Go and listen. You will see. MC Yeah, no, not really. Almarg is doing the same thing the directionality people do when they point out there are in fact physical reasons that might explain directionality. Not saying any of almargs statements are wrong. Simply saying his conclusion, "exactly opposite (or at least very different) results depending on the specific application" is erroneous. Also notice when the same "logic" is used to to show there may be some basis for directionality those reasons are mocked and derided. While almarg is doing the exact same thing only not only does no one notice they actually compliment him on it. People are funny that way. Not looking to pick a fight, I don’t really care enormously either way about cables, - if you want it and can afford it good to go- but what his point really drives home IMHO is the inconsistency in your position, that everything matters, and yet a single cable company, or one speaker company, or a contact enhancer company can solve every single need. By your own starting position- everything matters- reinforced my Almargs post- a variety of manufacturers cables would most likely be needed to meet all the variabilities.. I recognize and freely admit I am an audio dullard, but fully capable of debate. Okay so first off I have no problem whatsoever stipulating everything almarg said is true and correct. Capacitance, etc can indeed cause things to sound different in different situations. Impedance too. Duh. What I am trying to do however is point out the inherent weakness and ultimate futility of this point of view. Almarg says wires can yield: exactly opposite (or at least very different) results depending on the specific application Now its really funny everyone seems so in love with this. Yet nobody actually acts as if they believe a word of it. Oh they say you do. But I will now prove they do not. Because if everyone really believed this then no one would be recommending any wire (or anything else) without saying it only works this way with such and such an impedance. Otherwise its "exactly the opposite (or at least very different)." Which no one ever does! Capacitance would be a standard specification right up there with speaker sensitivity, and frequency response, and amplifier output. Which last I looked, its not. In fact no one hardly ever talks about it, except every once in a while someone enjoys showing off his mastery of technical jargon. And audiophools (who don't even really understand a word of it) fall all over themselves congratulating him on his genius. Of course no wire ever made is capable of making anything its connected to sound exactly the same. Of course the physics of whatever its connected to does influence the performance. Duh. Congratulations. That's what I been saying: everything really does matter! Nevertheless we cannot conclude from this that everything works " exactly the opposite (or at least very different)" depending on what its connected to. If this was the case no one would read a review on anything. Why bother? If its going to sound completely different connected to different stuff, why bother? Riddle me that one, bat man. You all read reviews. Therefore, you really do not believe a word of " exactly the opposite (or at least very different)". No. In spite of however much electrical measurement jargon is thrown at it the fact remains any given wire (and tube, and transformer, and amp, and speaker, etc, etc on and on, forever) does indeed have its own recognizable sonic character. A character that does not magically transform itself into "exactly the opposite (or at least very different)" every time its plugged in. Neither does it have the power to make everything its plugged into sound exactly the same. How could it? How would one even know??? All we can hear is the resulting combination. So how could the premise even be tested? Its nonsense on stilts. Sophistry. Go and listen. You will see. |
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Because if everyone really believed this then no one would be recommending any wireWhich is exactly why I rarely ever do. And why I cover the vast majority of my statements on suggestions of anything with verbiage like , " in my system, to my ears etc". Not as some prefer to try and insist their views are law and irrefutable facts. |
Millercarbon: Your use of the words "otherwise" and "everything" signifies a complete misreading of what I said. I cited three very specific situations in which, depending on the specific parameters that are involved (capacitance, impedance, etc.), the sonics of a specific cable may be the exact opposite or at least very different depending on the application in which the cable is used. I cited those three very specific examples to illustrate that the following statement you had made ... Actually no, they sound the same regardless of what they’re plugged into. ... is incorrect. I certainly was NOT claiming that "EVERYTHING works exactly the opposite (or at least very differently) depending on what it is connected to." I’m surprised that you misread (or perhaps mischaracterized) my post in that manner. I’ll add that in addition to being technically invalid, as I perceive it your statement that I quoted just above is inconsistent with the findings of most experienced audiophiles. Witness some of the comments in this very thread. Jetter and Ovinewar, thanks for your comments! Regards, -- Al |
not all of us are mikey fremer and have 0.2ohm epdr wilson alexx loudspeakers and pair them with swiss made dartzeel mono amps that have bizarrely behaved output behavour theres a reason why he uses garden hose tara labs speaker cables and says they sound different. because they do! they look cool tho, innit? can someone invite me over to their swanky pad with $100k power treatments and cables and conditioners so i can witness the sonic differences first hand? my mind is always open... i am after all |
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jetter @geoffkait For U I only need half wit comebacks.Now I’m confused, I will have to do a search as I only remember half witted comebacks. In fact, I am waiting for one now. >>>Copy your last 5 posts and send them to yourself. Your wait is over. |
jetter Actually I just looked at my last 5 posts, they did not fester on: Wire directionality Stray CD laser light Vibrations Transportation or Cryogenics Does that make me a bad person? >>>>I’m pretty sure you used the word fester incorrectly and the word transportation. That probably makes you an example of the failure of the school system. No offense. Now if you had said your brain is festering that would be the correct usage, see? |
