Tonearms without anti-skate, damage to records?

 I have generally found that a very tiny amount of AS, usually much less than textbook, suffices to alleviate the distortion, and that’s where I stop, but not at zero AS.

Spot on - from my personal conversations with both Brian & John Garrot ( orig Garrots Bros ) and AJ van den hul most cartridges come in with uneven wear from incorrectly applied antiskate ( or none ). This is from truckloads of cartridges sent for rebuild.

The top van den hul cartridges all now come with recommended antiskate levels specified - individually calibrated for each cartridge.

In the old days (80's onwards) most shops used to recommend anti skate up to 75% of the tracking force - this is too high.

Both Shure and Grado with extensive testing came up with recommended levels between 25-30% - much lower than most shops recommend.

I can easily hear changes to antiskate in my system.

Have an unusual tonearm, dynavector 507ii.  Anti skate is dialed in and adjusted easily with a test record. Subtle change in balance of left to right clarity. Basically set it and forget it after the cartridge is mounted. No numbers to quote vs vtf as it was never much of a concern.   

@rauliruegas , 50% is WAY too much. The proper amount of AS is 9 to 11% depending on the stylus. 9% for Spherical to 11% for line contact. The type of AS mechanism also is very important. Magnetic AS devices have no additional friction or parts that can resonate like strings. Forget about hearing, too many psychological factors. You can see the effect of AS when you lower the stylus onto the record. The cantilever should remain dead straight. With too much AS it will deflect to the right channel and will start mistracking on that side first. With too little AS the cantilever will deflect towards the left channel and will start mistracking on that side first.  Clearthinker should not perform this test as he obviously has a hard time seeing cantilever deflection. With the cantilever deflected the coils are no longer symmetrical in the magnetic gap something that Lyra designer Mr Carr strives to maintain. This can, at least theoretically, cause trouble with channel balance, crosstalk and as a result imaging. That sense of "spaciousness" that some audiophiles seem to like is the image falling apart. I can demonstrate this. Just like tube sound this is a distortion of reality and a matter of preference. I can not complain as I have my own preferences but IMHO that is going a step or two too far. 

@clearthinker , IMHO air bearing arms are a terrible way of going about tangential tracking. If this is important to you get a Schroder LT. No compressor or air current around the arm, Similar vertical and horizontal effective masses, much less change in VTA with record thickness and much better looking. Simplicity is always best and in this regard your arm is a nightmare.

Tapping the turntable's side is just a way of inciting the cartridges horizontal resonance. A lot of other things that do not involve action by you will incite it also. In the case of your arm that resonance is either too low or the vertical resonance is too high. This is a terrible thing to do to a cartridge as their vertical compliance is usually lower than their horizontal compliance. IMHO you should ditch the York and get a Schroder LT. It is not a total loss. You can mount the York on the wall and everyone will think it is some type of modern art :-)

@mijostyn  

Your comment about my vision is not required.  More sensitive people would regard it as insulting.

I don't need anti-skating any more but there sure has been a  load of rubbish written here.  The only known facts are:  you need it, the amount required varies as the arm moves across the record, = to tracking weight is loads too much, implementing it well is devilishly difficult without ruining the performance of the arm.

In the Aeroarm the tiny air current is expelled sideways along the arm beam, nowhere near the cartridge.

Your imagined evaluation of its resonances can only be fictional because you cannot know what they are.  Whatever they may be, they are always invisible and inaudible.

I already told you the Aeroarm deals with disc thickness differences by an easy arm height adjustment; you obviously have trouble reading (touché re your comment on my eysight)

You say simplicity is best.   Look at the bloody Schroder!  It is a poor over-complex clunky design.  It introduces an undesirable third freedom of movement that is likely to allow catastrophic arm pillar movement, entirely ruining the SQ (remember a few microns is bad).  The Aeroarm has only two freedoms of movement, as in a conventional pivoted arm.

I told you I did not require your advice on arm acquisition - again you have comprehension difficulties

We shall have to agree to differ.

Dear @wallytools  "  One may not make any claims about the sonic benefits of anti-skating before first measuring the starting horizontal torque force AND the arm’s static frictional force "

First what I posted is just an opinion and second you are a seller of that tool.

The issue always was and is controversial and that's why so many threads in this forum a other ones all over audio internet.

Stylus tip freely natural movements is what could or can makes that it can recovery all the LP groove modulations it can and AS goes against it is " something " added. Yes, I know that skating exist as exist trade-offs. I posted: try it and then choose your trade-offs.

No, for now I'm not going to buy your tool.

R.

Dear @dover ​@mijostyn  : Of course that we can hear the differences  with different levels of anti-skating and this is not for me the issue.

The issue is that we want to fix something that we can't fix in any normal pivoted tonearm because all LP recordings are way different in many ways but in something critical that's the different recorded velocities all over the LP grooved surface and not all cartridges comes with exactly the same quality stylus tip/cantilever and kind of suspension.

As I said it's a matter to choose each one of us trade-offs. There is no tonearm AS mechanism that makes in automatic way the AS needed at each groove over the LPs surface, at least I don't know about that tonearm AS mechanism. 

R.

Dear @viridian  " Apply anti-skate correctly ".

That's is the trouble: no way to do it correctly because what you can read in the clearthinker latest post and mine.

R.

Dear @mijostyn : " 50% is WAY too much. "

I think you already read my post and like to post that " figure ".

Again, in those old times the advise was VTF/AS same value, latter on: AS lower than 70%, latter lower than 50%, latter..... but even today Ortofon recomend VTF/AS same value:

https://www.ortofon.com/hifi/products/hifi-cartridges/xpression/set-up-and-maintenance/

There is no proper amount of AS and that’s the problem. The AS set up today is innacurated. Again, each one of us choose our trade-offs. You like to set that innacurated AS good, no problem with me.

As you I don’t care to much about stylus wear on this specific AS issue but the quality reproduced sound level and what you are saying is that in a cartridge with 1.5grs VTF and with and AS of 0.15gr makes the difference. As you said: I have not compliant about.

I don’t know if you tested cartridges/tonearms with and with out that " 0.15gr. AS if you did it then you prefer that very low amount of AS against none and what you posted:

" Forget about hearing, too many psychological factors. "

Is applicable to any one including you and like clerthinker said: " imagination ". Nothing wrong with that.

R.

@viridian  Not only I trow away but before me VPI too. 

@clearthinker , you know that was tongue in cheek and you and I agree on many things just not air bearing arms. 

Of course you do not need an antiskating device, not that your arm doesn't skate, it does, with air currents in the room, with changes in level, with different weight records, tension on the wires etc. It is impossible to predict. Much of this holds for any straight line tracker including the Schroder. Does any of this effect the sound? Probably not audibly. It is all theoretical in regards to sound quality. IMHO it all adds up when regarding the entire system. Simplicity is alway best, less is more. I regard Air bearing arms like I do ultrasonic record cleaning, like unnecessary complication and diversions. But, that is me and I am responsible only for myself and perhaps the systems that I help to set up. Here we share ideas even if they might be unpopular to some. Political correctness is only a way to prevent solving problems. Anyone can attack my feelings any time they want. They are already numb from years of self incrimination.  

I have little truck with political correctness.  The world has gone mad, led by the USA.  And now we have wank (woke), again originating in the USA.

The principle of free speech is far more important.  Wan**rs would have America and Europe become like Russia and China where you receive long prison terms in life threatening prisons for small breaches.  Breaches need to be extremely severe before I will censor.

@rauliruegas , you would never buy a VPI because like me you do not care for unipivot bearings.

There absolutely is a correct amount of antiskating even if the skating force is variable which it is, within a range and is mostly dependant on groove modulation and the shape of the stylus. You can see this easily if you watch the cantilever deflect. The goal is to set the antiskating so that the cantilever remains straight across the record which you can do and it works reliably if you have a good eye. As measured with the Wallyskater with the Lyra Atlas this turns out to be 11% or 0.11 times the VTF other suggestions are wrong to one degree or another. This will change slightly with stylus shape between 9 and 11%. 

I have a human brain like everyone else and are just as subject to psychological deviation as anyone. The only difference is I realize this is at play and take measures to neutralize it as much as is possible. Many of us here deny this is a factor. "Trust your ears." My ears or anyone's ears are the last things you want to trust. I really mean this. After all the theory and set up enjoy the fruits of your labor with your ears knowing you have done the best job you are capable of, to minimize distortions! Sound familiar? 

I have tested every cartridge I own to a patently ridiculous degree. I even built my own horizontal video microscope to make some of these observations. You can see it here https://imgur.com/a/9VcylFy  This is the set up for looking at stylus wear. The scope can be used adjacent to the turntable to view VTA and overhang. Those with a scientific background might recognize the staging mechanism of a medical microscope. 

Dear @mijostyn : No, I did not but that was not the issue why posted VPI and I would like to know what HW was thinking when designed his tonearm with out AS mechanism.

Now, yes I like to put at minimum developed distortions by the roomsystem and I like to do it when exist some certainty that in reality " those " distortions are at minimum but in the AS subject it’s a losted " figth " before that figth begin. To many variables and " if’s " . You ca't have certainty of any " thing " that is constanty changing alomost groove after groove all over each one LP grooved surface where does not exist two different scores in LP’s recorded exactly with similar groove modulations at the same places all over the LP’s surface. We can’t really know if distortions are at minimum with that AS of 0.15gr. against none.

For now I don’t like to " figth " in something that defeats me before I begin against it. Just my common sense on this specific AS subject.

You are fine with what you have and me too with what I have and maybe just maybe the quality sound differences between that 0.15gr and none could be inaudible at least in my room/system and yes with my ears.

For me and taking in count all what I posted about it’s futile/useles to worry about AS. Today I’m really happy not to have be worried because that imposible to fix AS, yes that’s me and my opinion.

R.

The only certainty is that skating is devoloped.

I have read Peter Lederman's comments on AS and stylus inspections he has done and also understand that skating force is real.   So I go with a little goes a long way.   I typically use around 1/3 of the tracking force for AS force setting.   It does seem that I can hear when it is right.  

I use a vinyl with no groove, and check if the tone arm do not move, and stay at its place, and the beginning, centre and end of that no-groove vinyle.  Another trick is that your cartridge at the very end of grooves (of a normal vinyle), the arm should move slowly to the centre to exit.

Has anyone performed Peter Ledermann's recommended AS method (set to permit slow centripetal progress on smooth vinyl) and compared the resulting AS force to standard recommendations? My experience with doing it on two or three cartridges is that it comes out to about half of the VTF (though how much VTF affects skating force on smooth vinyl isn't obvious to me: presumably VTF acts through force on angled groove walls).

One thing I am pretty sure of is that Decca cartridges sound their best with little to no AS set, which perhaps isn't surprising as their armature, triangular in shape in the horizontal plane, is relatively resistant to sideways movement. That's probably something I should explore further in a Decca forum.

dogberry, How do you know that you are setting AS to "half of VTF"? You can know the VTF in grams very precisely, but how do you know the AS force at the headshell, where the skating force is manifested? For me, that is where we are blinded unless Mijostyn will loan us his home made tool or we buy the Wally version.

True, all I can do is twiddle the dial as made and calibrated by SME, or the slider in the case of Rega. I use two arms from each, and setting them up this way conforms to PL’s method.

Going by sound alone, I’d say that this setting or even less is the best. It’s a night and day difference for the Decca, which comes to life with little or no AS force. But as always, I’m judging on sound quality alone, as having but one ear, I don’t do stereo, imaging, soundstaging and other (to me) imaginary concepts.

@lewm , my home made tool did not work well in the end. I could not get reliable readings out of it. I opted for a Wallyskater as the most reliable way to get into the AS ballpark and have found by all accounts 9-11% is correct. Three methods actually agree with each other. The least reliably accurate is the Frank Schroder/ Peter Ledermann slow fade to the inside in the runout groove area. Next is the Jonathan Carr cantilever observation method which when used with magnification is surprisingly accurate and finally the Wallyskater which will give you a perfectly straight cantilever everytime without any dependency on observational astuteness.  

@rauliruegas , The skating force exists within a range dependant most on VTF. It is never close to zero and never beyond a certain degree. It is getting within the middle of that range which is important. When severely off as with no AS at all record wear on the left channel and that side of the stylus is greatly increased, the cantilever can be permanently deflected to the opposite side and mistraking occurs early in the right channel. You can demonstrate this with almost any test record. My friend's Spectral cartridge had the cantilever permanently bent to the left side by chronically too much AS and this will lead to early mistracking in the left channel again easy to demonstrate and accelerated wear on the right channel groove wall.  Other than mistracking whether or not you can hear any of this is a question I can not answer. My own inclination is that if you are listening to the right characteristics, you can. Before mistracking and increased wear occur cantilever deflection causes asymmetry in the alignment of the coils in the magnetic gap. If the magnetic structure was designed properly the field intensity should remain the same anywhere within the gap but the field lines will change. As a psychological issue I am happiest when symmetry is maintained. When I am happy my system, which is currently in shambles, sounds better. 

@clearthinker , ahmen.

The US is much younger than Europe and our immaturity frequently sends us into these unpredictable spasms like the 18th amendment. We'll come around, but the sane minds that will have to prevent WW 3 will be European. As the musical prophet Eric Dolphy would say, at this moment we are "Out to Lunch." 

Dear @mijostyn : Due what you posted in this and other threads like the one thread you just posted I think that you are in the audio periodtime to fine tune your room/system and I already past that audio period/time with my room system years ago when I attended to a live concert seated at near field position and if I had the LP/CD of that concert that same nigth I compared the recording against what I just listened, not any more.

From some time now I’m centered to just enjoy MUSIC, all what you posted in your thread already gone for me.

Anyway, this last weekend I make a cartridges check-up ( I make time to time quick room/system check ups. ) around 10 of the cartridges that normally are in rotation, some vitge/today, and check its cantilevers and ( not a surprise for me ) all are just straigth even that I have some years with out AS.

I choose 4 of them to test it using the Telarc 1812 LP that’s all over the Overture  just demanding and " fortunatelly " with no single mistracking that I could be aware but one of the cartridges that had a tiny mistracking in the last cannon shot at the end of the score abut this last shot is a true obstacule/wall to almost any cartridge. So , I’m fine whith out that " distress " set up the " rigth " AS that just does not exist.

Btw, you have not to much time that you discovery the JC test for the AS. I do it and did it at least for the last 15+ years and never had the opportunity to read JC advise that's just common sense.

R.

@rauliruegas , And that is why Howard Johnson's made 28 flavors. 

At this moment I am integrating my new MA 2 amplifiers into the system and it has been anything but smooth sailing. I have a circuit breaker that keeps tripping. It can't handle the load. I will have to upgrade that line. And I just learned that I can not interrupt the power to the JC 1s or they will not trigger. They will require a whole new line. Antiskating is the least of my worries. On the bright side before the breaker trips things are sounding remarkably good and I have not gotten around to fine tuning the system yet. The JC 1s thunder on the subwoofers. With a damping factor of 2000 they toss those cones all over the place with utter abandon. 

Have a drink and look at those cantilevers again. 

@mijostyn  : You have yet a very long road to be " there " and that " there " will be longer when you introduce your supertweeters. Good luck.

The true fine tunning is acommplished with a high resolution roomsystem and you have it, good.

R.

@rauliruegas I will always have a long way to go because I enjoy doing it. I spent yesterday rewiring the basement amplifier shelf with a new 20 amp service for the MA 2s. I also had to rework the trigger system. Atmasphere designed and equipped my amps with a special trigger. When presented with a 12 volt trigger (the industry standard) the amp's filaments light up first then about a minute later the B+ is triggered and the amps go operational. He did not charge me a cent for it! I hope he gets to sell it to other people as an option. Because my amps are under the speakers in the basement I could not live without a trigger system. Perhaps I am the guinea pig. I am totally fine with that. 

I am not at all sure about the tweeters yet. I have to see how the new amps do.

Thanx for the compliment. I do not think the subwoofers are high resolution...yet. They will be if I don't die first. 

Ladies and Gentlemen, here we witness the results of audiophiles not taking their medications.

@fusian  Nonsense! I have three beers everyday:-)

@mijostyn 😂

I recently restored a Technics SL-6 linear tracking turntable, with a simple replacement of the tiny belt that drives the cartridge mounting mechanism.  I am extremely impressed with the overall performance of this unit - even with a relatively inexpensive Audio Technica AT-92e pickup.  If you are willing to accept the limited selection of P-mount cartridges available - these types of turntables supply an ideal solution to the complex "skating" problems inherent in all pivoted tonearms.  Furthermore, the convenience features of these units provide an additional incentive to go this route!