Tonearms without anti-skate, damage to records?

@mijostyn  : You have yet a very long road to be " there " and that " there " will be longer when you introduce your supertweeters. Good luck.

The true fine tunning is acommplished with a high resolution roomsystem and you have it, good.

R.

Dear @mijostyn : Due what you posted in this and other threads like the one thread you just posted I think that you are in the audio periodtime to fine tune your room/system and I already past that audio period/time with my room system years ago when I attended to a live concert seated at near field position and if I had the LP/CD of that concert that same nigth I compared the recording against what I just listened, not any more.

From some time now I’m centered to just enjoy MUSIC, all what you posted in your thread already gone for me.

Anyway, this last weekend I make a cartridges check-up ( I make time to time quick room/system check ups. ) around 10 of the cartridges that normally are in rotation, some vitge/today, and check its cantilevers and ( not a surprise for me ) all are just straigth even that I have some years with out AS.

I choose 4 of them to test it using the Telarc 1812 LP that’s all over the Overture  just demanding and " fortunatelly " with no single mistracking that I could be aware but one of the cartridges that had a tiny mistracking in the last cannon shot at the end of the score abut this last shot is a true obstacule/wall to almost any cartridge. So , I’m fine whith out that " distress " set up the " rigth " AS that just does not exist.

Btw, you have not to much time that you discovery the JC test for the AS. I do it and did it at least for the last 15+ years and never had the opportunity to read JC advise that's just common sense.

R.

The only certainty is that skating is devoloped.

Dear @mijostyn : No, I did not but that was not the issue why posted VPI and I would like to know what HW was thinking when designed his tonearm with out AS mechanism.

Now, yes I like to put at minimum developed distortions by the roomsystem and I like to do it when exist some certainty that in reality " those " distortions are at minimum but in the AS subject it’s a losted " figth " before that figth begin. To many variables and " if’s " . You ca't have certainty of any " thing " that is constanty changing alomost groove after groove all over each one LP grooved surface where does not exist two different scores in LP’s recorded exactly with similar groove modulations at the same places all over the LP’s surface. We can’t really know if distortions are at minimum with that AS of 0.15gr. against none.

For now I don’t like to " figth " in something that defeats me before I begin against it. Just my common sense on this specific AS subject.

You are fine with what you have and me too with what I have and maybe just maybe the quality sound differences between that 0.15gr and none could be inaudible at least in my room/system and yes with my ears.

For me and taking in count all what I posted about it’s futile/useles to worry about AS. Today I’m really happy not to have be worried because that imposible to fix AS, yes that’s me and my opinion.

R.

Dear @mijostyn : " 50% is WAY too much. "

I think you already read my post and like to post that " figure ".

Again, in those old times the advise was VTF/AS same value, latter on: AS lower than 70%, latter lower than 50%, latter..... but even today Ortofon recomend VTF/AS same value:

https://www.ortofon.com/hifi/products/hifi-cartridges/xpression/set-up-and-maintenance/

There is no proper amount of AS and that’s the problem. The AS set up today is innacurated. Again, each one of us choose our trade-offs. You like to set that innacurated AS good, no problem with me.

As you I don’t care to much about stylus wear on this specific AS issue but the quality reproduced sound level and what you are saying is that in a cartridge with 1.5grs VTF and with and AS of 0.15gr makes the difference. As you said: I have not compliant about.

I don’t know if you tested cartridges/tonearms with and with out that " 0.15gr. AS if you did it then you prefer that very low amount of AS against none and what you posted:

" Forget about hearing, too many psychological factors. "

Is applicable to any one including you and like clerthinker said: " imagination ". Nothing wrong with that.

R.

@viridian  Not only I trow away but before me VPI too. 

Dear @viridian  " Apply anti-skate correctly ".

That's is the trouble: no way to do it correctly because what you can read in the clearthinker latest post and mine.

R.

Dear @dover ​@mijostyn  : Of course that we can hear the differences  with different levels of anti-skating and this is not for me the issue.

The issue is that we want to fix something that we can't fix in any normal pivoted tonearm because all LP recordings are way different in many ways but in something critical that's the different recorded velocities all over the LP grooved surface and not all cartridges comes with exactly the same quality stylus tip/cantilever and kind of suspension.

As I said it's a matter to choose each one of us trade-offs. There is no tonearm AS mechanism that makes in automatic way the AS needed at each groove over the LPs surface, at least I don't know about that tonearm AS mechanism. 

R.

Dear @wallytools  "  One may not make any claims about the sonic benefits of anti-skating before first measuring the starting horizontal torque force AND the arm’s static frictional force "

First what I posted is just an opinion and second you are a seller of that tool.

The issue always was and is controversial and that's why so many threads in this forum a other ones all over audio internet.

Stylus tip freely natural movements is what could or can makes that it can recovery all the LP groove modulations it can and AS goes against it is " something " added. Yes, I know that skating exist as exist trade-offs. I posted: try it and then choose your trade-offs.

No, for now I'm not going to buy your tool.

R.

Dear @noromance : " No one appears to have mentioned the sound quality with regards to AS. I find that the music sounds less restrained with no AS applied .."

I’m in agreement with your statement by first hand experiences with different cartridges/tonearms  and how its quality level performance really improves and this at the end is what it counts.

I think that almost all audiophiles as us several years ago were educated to use the AS in our pivoted tonearms. Even in those old days the advise was " to ste up the AS tonearm at the same value of VTF " and in those old times the cartridge/tonearm manufacturers was ok with.

I remember my AT 1100/1010 ( both very good tonearms ) where the AS was handled by string/weigth and its AS mechanism you need to choose 3 AS positions according the stylus tip: conical, ellipthical and LC and was AT who years latter told me that the AS must be no higher than the 50% of VTF but almost no one but VPI manufacturer just disappeared the AS and several of us were and even today are against the VPI design,

Now, which is the specific role of any cartridge/tonearm during LP play?, I think is to pick-up all the grooves information it can and everything the same what could and can make a differences for the better in the cartridge and in the tonearm? :

cartridge tracking abilites and very low friction in the tonearm bearing, that’s that the stylus/cantilever movements following the grooves been free of additional natural forces developed down there and the AS tonearms mechanisms are not a " natural force " and this AS impedes that natural cartridge/cantilever movements.

What almost all the technical oriented gentlemans posted before have some sense but the reality is that with or with out AS the today very good polished different shapes stylus tip gone play by play suffering a natural wear and we start to listen that stylus tip wear after/around the first 800 hours of playing and today almost all audiophiles own over 2-3+ cartridges. So before that playing figure we just do not " noted " the stylus tip wear and that’s just worn and maybe ready to re-tip.

"" The sound of alleviating this force is unmistakable: more relaxed sound, larger soundstage, more overall coherency and intelligibility. ""

No doubt about. Nothing is perfect in audio and on the AS issue it’s better don’t use it there are other issues that in reality benefit the listening sound but not the AS. Just try it and you can be sure that if you listen distortions as lewm then something is wrong down there cartridge/tonearm.

Yes I was surprised the very first time I did not use the AS and till today there is no way to come back t AS.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,

R.