Sean, Once again it seems you have given an opinion on some scientific information that you have read than have experienced. Have you listened to a Neuance shelf compared to the Grand Prix? Have you ever listened to the Sistrum products? Have you ever even listened to a Grand Prix rack?
Or is this just some more of your opinions without any experience? Another useless piece of information without merit because you like a particular artical you have read? Why do you seem to talk about products that you have never listened to. You have become a product that has little value for me. I know you and many others think the world of yourself. I gain little knowledge from those who have to give an opinion when they have never heard a product. This seems to be something you offer too often with no experience of sound. You seem to offer this kind of useless advice too often. Stick with the technical stuff. I have heard the Grand Prix alongside the Neuance on a Mana shelf. When you have done the same, then maybe you will have a clue how useless this kind of information is. There is nothing more valuable than experience. Your information is as about useful as me giving advice on how to play chess. I love the game but how dare I give anyone advice on something I know little about. I know I am not going to make many friends with this post. But I am very tired of opinions without experience. |
Guys some times these threads sound like the crossfire spoof on SNL where the guy's response is "Jane you ignorant slut". Frankly I looked at the Grand Prix Audio site and there stuff looks cool and they do have some tech support for their stuff, but it sure looks like a whole lot of marketing. I mean formula car names for racks and other race car illusions are fairly typical male marketing ploys. Plus some of their science is not very strong. Lead shot is ok but the micro bearings used by starsound are a step beyond. I am not particularly a fan of glass shelves although many use em and find them ok. The sistrum stuff is like a tank; the metal shelves fixed in place with screw in an integrated system. While I really like the looks of the Grand Prix stuff their are several other mfgrs. who make a very similar product. At this point sistrum is somewhat unique, which doesn't mean its good. I agree that their website although improved needs more detailed info. I have encouraged them to do so and anyone interested in the products should email them and urge the posting of their scientific data for review. Also we should all consider a critique of statements made rather than the individual making them. |
Ksales, agreed. Killing the messenger is not a good idea. It's the message that is the key thing. I'm quite used to taking flak though. I hope others have thick skins also. |
ksales and Twl, Point taken. I never like to get into arguments with the Audiogon members. My remarks were rather harsh. Sean, I apologize for not being a bit more diplomatic. You have been an excellent source of information to many. I am very sorry if I have offended you.I just have a real problem when people make claims of a product that one has had no experience with.
please understand my point of view. I will also try to understand yours. Again, I am sorry for remarks that should not have been said in this thread. I still stand by what I have said. I made a mistake of of the way I worded my post. Please accept my apologies not for what I said, but for how I said them. |
I love maturity. Good job, guys. My hat's off to you both. |
At the risk of being pounced on, I think Sean's argument deserves some consideration. Technically oriented people generally are swayed by strong technical arguments. I have visited many websites where the information is not only useless, it is outright WRONG. A recent example - the claim that electrons in wires can travel at or faster than the speed of light. It is my expectation that Einstein, Bohr, Pauli, Oppenheimer, Fermi, and Compton are forging chains for these people to wear in the afterlife - with no hope of redemption.
I can easily understand Sean's pleasure in uncovering good, sensible technical information in a world of largely misleading hype, and I am glad for his input. I do not think that "listening" in a side by side bake-off is all that reliable information. |
Hi Judit, What ever works is all that matters. Please forgive me if i disagree with your side by side bake-off theory. How else would you know what tastes best? |
Ah - the correct metaphor. That is what you actually get with side by side comparisons - a taste. Sometimes a bitter disappointing taste, sometimes a glorious moment. However, it is mostly subjective, not objective truth. |
We all need to carry a cushion so as to dampen the fall of each others ego. All of us here put much time and energy into this thing called hi-end audio. We also put much of ourselves into what we would like to be our own recreation of live sound. Our ways and means and personalities define the system we own. Its is our nature and our right to disagree. Some times reading other opinions that I differ with make wants me to scream down the digital highway "hey ya just don't get it do ya". I find it difficult to bite my own sarcastic tongue. I welcome a good read and the friendships I feel I have kindled on these forums. Tom |
Let's all go to a retreat together and bond. Then get naked, get into a hot tub, smoke some doobies, and talk about audio heaven, while we listen to Inagoddadivida, by Iron Butterfly, through outdoor Bose speakers. That would be a good thing. Keith, you too, jump into the hot tub with us...peace guys, warren |
BTW: to change the subject again: Are there any women on the 'gon? Please ladies, let us know. Is this just a guy thing? Cross dressers, transvestites, or wanabee women, do not count. Must have the DNA. |
Brulee: I am sorry if my post came across the wrong way. I was not trying to belittle the comments / experience that anyone has had with Sistrum products and stated such in the first sentence of my second post in this thread.
What i was trying to say was that i thought that the approach being taken by Grand Prix has a lot of merit in my eyes. They are actually taking measurements, performing tests, i.e. trying to understand why / how things work and why we hear what we hear. I do not believe that we have the knowledge to fully understand all of the things going on in any given device ( be it a rack, electronics, etc... ), but i do think that the more that we know, the better off we are. Like any other "science", data can be interpreted / misinterpreted. It is from trying / studying / making mistakes and applying ALL of that info that progress is made.
I also stated that i did not agree with everything that Grand Prix had to say. They too have their fair share of marketing and hype taking place. However, they have seasoned such marketing with at least a hint of real "technology". That is why i said what i did about "audiophile approved products". Many are strictly based on nothing less than snake oil. Personally, i would not use the shelves that Grand Prix provides with them, so we are probably in agreement at least on that subject.
As far as commenting without having experience, i have done that many times. This is a discussion forum and one need not have hands on experience to process logical thoughts about a subject and / or ask questions. Unfortunately, i think that a lot of things get lost in the translation due to lack of voice inflection, body language, etc... I try to be careful in how i word things, but misinterpretation is inevitable in some circumstances. That is why i have always encouraged those that don't understand something to ask / post questions.
As far as relying on those with personal experience using a product, this also has pitfalls. One does not know their past points of reference, their level of experience with other comparable products, how far they went in trying to optimize the performance of said unit, how long they actually used the unit,etc... For that matter, one can have have a unit for a month and only put a few few hours on it. How usefull / accurate do you think those comments would be ?
It takes both a skilled and knowledgable audiophile / writer to convey all of that information in an easy to follow manner. If you doubt this, take a look at Audio Review and read some of the reviews of any given product. Everyone has opinions and even those owning / using the same identical product can have VERY different points of view / experiences.
To take this one step further, if we resorted to people contributing information strictly based on products that they only have first hand experience with, there would be VERY little posted on these forums. Especially if one wants to narrow things down to using Brand X with Brand Y type scenarios. As such, i will continue to post in the manner that i have and i hope that others will share their points of view, even if we differ on perspective. That goes for you too. After all, i would want to know the highs and lows of any given product / plan of attack PRIOR to forking out the money or making the effort to try it. Contrasting points of view with some type of background as to why / how we have those opinions can only help those inquiring about such subjects.
Since i'm hoping that we are all adults capable of individual thought processes, being able to read various points of view and draw our own conclusions is part of life. Audio is no different as far as i can tell. As such, i try to pass on usefull info that i've found and / or experienced. Along with this, i include personal observations based on my own individual thought process. Whether or not one finds the links that i provide, my comments based on personal experience or simple thoughts thrown out to ponder useful, entertaining, repulsive, etc... is up to them. As such, caveat emptor ( let the buyer beware ). If you don't like what i'm selling ( or saying ), don't buy it.
Twl: I hope that you understood where i was coming from and did not take my comments as a personal attack. Your thoughts / comments on this product are quite interesting and i'm glad that you shared them. Personally, i find many of the comments / ideas found on the Star Points / Sistrum website to be similar in concept to that of Michael Green.
Judith: Thanks for understanding where i'm coming from, or at least trying to : )
As far as your comments regarding side by side comparisons go, i agree that they can be of limited use as neither item is fully optimized under most circumstances. This is not to say that the experience isn't usefull, but that the information garnered from such testing needs to be fully absorbed and digested in the proper manner. Sean
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Judit, I think you are missing my point. To make an opinion on what tastes best, shouldn't one take a taste first before declaring which is best? Or maybe one should look at the recipe without tasting and decide which tastes best. Have I missed your point? If so, please explain to this not so bright boy exactly what you are trying to tell me.
Sorry if i can't quite follow your logic. However, i am all ears to your point I missed. Not faulting your view, just don't quite understand it. Please do not feel that I am being disrespectful. I truly do not understand. To be objective, shouldn't one know what they are talking about? Shouldn't one have some experience to be objective? |
Yes, Sean thank you. Michael Green "borrowed" the idea from Sistrum. Sistrum has the patents on it. Sistrum just did not want to disrupt the industry by making a big issue out of that. The same thing happened when a certain Canadian cable company "borrowed" the technology that Sonoran cables uses, and now this company has a very successful cable line.
I'm glad that everyone is cooling off here. I was getting worried that this thread might be side-tracked! :^) |
Brulee: While Judith is a big girl and can answer for herself, i'll only add that i was adding a comment to this thread. I did not state that one product was superior to another or that one should buy one over the other. I did say that i found the info presented on the Grand Prix website to be interesting and that i thought it was worth reading.
As far as your "taste testing" question goes, one can form opinions / ideas about a product without ever really "tasting" it. How something looks, is presented, is reported on, etc... can all help to form an opinion of the product. That does not mean that such ideas are accurate or will be applicable to everyone's individual tastes or experiences. However, without those initial thoughts about various products, we would show no interest in anything. Something has to "catch our eye" or "turn our stomach" before wanting to check it out or avoid it. As such, we ALL form "opinions" or have "preconcieved notions" about products prior to experiencing them. Personally, i don't think it is wrong to discuss those "preconcieved ideas" or why / how one formed the opinions that they do about a product.
Twl: I have used Michael Green products in the past. At one point in time, i had his most expensive rack and invested in several different devices that he offered. I spent a lot of time on the phone with his "assistants" and a couple of hours talking to Michael personally. To be 100% honest, i could not get rid of that stuff fast enough. I also have to say that the person who purchased the rack from me was VERY happy with it. They post here on these forums and i respect their opinions. We simply had different opinions / experiences with the same identical product.
This is not to say that i find the Sistrum products directly comparable to what i had from MGD. They are built very differently and i'm sure that they perform very differently. I was commenting that i think that the two companies share common philosophies even though some of their products are very different.
Warren: There are several women that post / read these forums. Speaking of that, i wonder if anyone has heard from Angela after her relocation ? Sean
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Brulee,
I will try to be more clear. What I understand technically about a piece of gear and what I experience during a listening session are Yin and Yang - two faces of the same thing. Neither one is truth on its own. Both are invaluable to me.
Warrenh,
I have never seen my own DNA, and when I am doing the audio thing, I am only paying attention to what is going on between my ears. Wish I could give you a better answer to your question. |
I have listened to a system that used a Sistrum SP-5, the sistrum amp stands many many times and it was nice- how ever the owner of that system heard a very similar system to his with a rix rax hoodoo and well needless to say the sistrum was sold and his hoodoo should arrive in a week or so. He considered the Grand Prix but neither he nor I liked the design- between the lack of support on the rear of the shelf(it must flex??) and the some what gimmicky isolation and the simple fact that he didn't have a chance to listen to one. The Rix Rax have a great reputation and I am looking forward to hearing it- and comparing it to the old sistrum. I was always impressed with the look and simple function of the sistrum- I do see how many like it. How ever I have found an isolation device that puts all others to shame, not only functionally but aesthetically pleasing- I have hired some of the girls from my old job ;) to lay my gear on when I am listening(I use 2 for my amp-its pretty heavy- and a spare to change my disc upon request) you would be amazed how good it works, it turns out humans make a great dampening/isotation device.
Sean- Angela is alive and well(the last I talked with her- about 1-2 weeks ago) she had some things to take care of on the east coast and then back home to settle in- she was sick and busy with the move so I wanted to give her a little space- I am surprised she hasn't been posting by now. Speaking of posting again, I am glad to see Brulee's participation again- he was MIA for quite some time- weather you agree with him or not its nice to see one of the original members back. He keeps us on our toes its sort of like having a cornfedboy light(low in carbs. and just one calorie :) on hand.
Brulee- All I can say to you is- and this is just for old time sake- "trust me I am a tireguy".......well it just doesn't have the same ring to it :) |
Thanks Tireguy,Maybe a different sounding ring, but a welcome ring just the same.
Judit, I think we have come to an agreement. I agree, in fact my point has been as you said "I am only paying attention to what is going on between my ears". I don't think you can give a better answer. This may be viewed simplistic to those who rather blather on, and on, and on, and have all kinds of flimsey excuses or some pseudo intellect that serves no one. What i have quoted you on is all I was trying to say. Thanks for saying it so well with so few words. I reserve my time for those that like to write novels in a different forum. You know, things like books that take you somewhere than the big yawn. |
Brulee: Why not discuss the matter in a logical manner ? I have presented my side of the how's & why's and all that you have done is throw stones. Can you not understand "any" of the logic or responses that i've posted to you here ? Sean
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Brent Riehl designed the original Audiopoint in 1989 not Michael Green. Green was a pretty boy front man smart enough to capitalize on a good concept when he could grab one. As TWL stated a company north of Detroit makes a try to be knockoff of the Sonoran cable, also a Brent Riehl design. Sistrum Platforms and The Science of Resonance Transfer a unique and controversial concept is also a Brent Riehl design. I suppose the fact that most people--------------- " have not gotten it" has protected Brent and Robert of Starsound from being ----- off again! As I understand it Brent and Robert are two of the principals of Starsound. Nelson Pass patented class A designs of the early 80's were borrowed by JVC and other Japanese companies. You have to have big money to protect your published ideas from becoming public domain so they do not become an unearned profit vehicle for the fasthanded. |
Sean, I agree with your negative comments about the Michael Green clamp rack. Like all methods of dampening and so called isolation systems they serve to kill the dynamics and hence the music. There is only one parallel between the Green rack and the Sistrum rack and that is the Audiopoint. Green used the Audiopoint to collect and focuse resonant energy but then succeeded in dampening the exit of the noise . By having points at the bottom and a point at the top dampened by a shelf Green never allowed for the resonant energy to exit the device at all. As a result you had a system that was dark and dynamically depressed. You are totally incorrect in trying to say a MGD rack and a Sistrum rack are similar in any other way.. The Audiopoint is used in an entirely different method. Sistrum is a resonant energy transfer device it is not a music killing machine made of lead rubber or carbon fiber. Sistrum is designed to provide a high speed path for electromechanical as well as airborne resonance to exit the attached device. My daughter is quite a classical guitarist. I wonder how she would sound if she played a guitar with rubber and carbon fiber strings attached to a lead instead of rosewood body? Let the music be heard! Tom |
I was not so much talking about the racks themselves, but the idealogies. Michael Green believes in "live" or "resonant" rather than "dead" or "damped". Your last response to me basically focuses on many of the same attributes that he seeks to achieve, but using different methods. He even allows one to "tune" his speakers so that the effect of box resonance can be added or reduced as one sees fit.
As far as that goes, are you trying to tune equipment and racks to become actual "musical instruments" and / or actual contributors to what we hear ? My thoughts were that the gear should be as neutral of a messenger as possible and neither add nor subtract energy from the recording being reproduced.
As far as i know, i thought that Steve McCormack was the "inventor" of component footers aka cones known as "Tiptoe's" and dampers known as "Soft Shoes". Are we talking about the same thing here ??? Sean
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I may be wrong, but much to do about nothing seems to have generated when Sean interjected his post which, intended or not, suggested that the philosophy and/or design concept of Grand Prix racks was "scientific" as opposed to the "gimmickry and marketing" of "audiophile approved" racks. Since this thread dealt with Sistrum, there is no other way to interpret Sean's comments except to conclude that he felt that Sistrum racks lack scientific basis and are only audiophile approved, as if this were some kind of negative trait.
Though I've looked at the Grand Prix website before, I went there expecting to see something new in the way of specific technical data or scientific support for their products. Sadly, all I found was a mildly interesting definition of terms with a "white paper" link that was still under construction. I'm at a loss as to what technical data currently exists at the website that in any way supports any claim that they have to offer.
Since I found nothing there to support their position or of the specific test parameters that were referred to in the text, I have nothing tangible to offer on their claims. They may have supporting data - shake table test specs, duration periods, impulse amplitude, or XYZ parameters, but I found nothing.
In contrast, I have experienced Sistrum products in a controlled environment, my home. I've done listening evaluations that support the positive attributes that others have mentioned. I find the basic scientific premise behind Sistrum to be in agreement with my sonic experience.
I'm sure that Sean didn't intend for this thread to be sidetracked over inferences and suppositions. Barring any technical or experiential data suggesting otherwise, I'm at a bit of loss as to why he felt inclined to post as he did. However, I think he has made it clear that he has no personal experience to suggest that Sistrum's claims are untenable.
The most disturbing aspect so far has been the comments suggesting that personal experience is somehow too subjective to trust in any evaluation. This is audio, folks! Audio is subjective! Electronics can be objective within the limitations of the tests and test equipment that are available to date. However, the sonic "quality", perceived by the human ear, is the final test. To suggest otherwise is simply foolishness. If a comparison is not performed "side by side" so to speak, giving each item the best possibility to exhibit its sonic strengths (whether this may take hours or days or weeks), then how else is a comparison to be performed?
Preconceived ideas about a product can be useful I suppose. However, rarely do they benefit our sonic evaluations. We each look for certain aspects or attributes of a component to help with narrowing our focus to a manageable few for consideration.
Obviously, the specific triggers of interest can and will vary from person to person. It all depends on the "open mindedness" of the individual if he or she is able to set aside biases and give a product a fair evaluation before passing judgement.
Will one person's experience be true for all others? Of course, it won't. However, as more people come to share the same or similar experience and the experience level of the individuals of the group is considered, a greater measure of value may be assigned to the personal experiences as related to a particular product.
With this in mind, those on this thread who have experience with the Sistrum products and considering the level of the audiophile experience supporting such claims, I feel very safe in recommending the Sistrum products to those who might be in the market for racks and stands. Just one man's opinion. |
Tom, I agree, let the music be heard. But to be heard, I guess you got to let the music be heard. I see some do not agree with this novel idea.
Sean, I have not thrown a stone at you with any attempt to harm. An opinion means little to me if one has not heard the products one talks about. I cannot or will not attempt to compete with you with words. I have not the skill or the knowledge of the english language that you are so blessed with. If I were, I would probably post as often as you. I just can't compete with you in words. But I can more than hold my own with you with simple logic. My logic escapes you. Your's makes little since to me. I mean no harm my friend. Please never think of me as throwing stones at you. This is a cowards way. I would be the first to come to your aid if i saw stones being thrown at you. Let us put this topic to bed. And if you have anyone throwing stones at you, I have a sure fire slingshot that I will lown you or teach you how to use. i wish nothing but good will to you and those important to you. If you ever think i am throwing stones, they are nothing more than a small ,lightly packed, snowballs. |
Sean, as TWL has written in his Sistrum statements he heard more music with lower distortion and at higher perceived volume levels. You do not increase level by dampening or killing off dynamics. Green only used some of the tools at his disposal. The Green rack sounded better when you did not clamp and kill dynamics by compressing equipment between shelves. And it sounded way better when you replaced all the steel rods and hardware with all brass. Because he had the tools does not mean he had the science to apply these in a correct method. Yes he did try to tune his speaker with a tensioning system bolt, but again one major mistake in his method was to have a point of exit[ the Audiopoint} on the bottom and his tensioning method on the vertical panels. These are conflicting applications and are counterproductive. The only thing he had done was to retune the speaker, again by varing the storage time of the unwanted nasties he was properly trying to evacuate thru the use of Audio points on the bottom. Sistrum I feel is now a science. If you use it as long as I have and thruout your entire system it will become easy to understand what it does and thus how it works. The mysticism will then be in the music and not in the product. Sistrum contribution to the music is that it does not dampen and therefore does not retune your music. Again Sistrum does this by providing a high speed path of stored resonance to ground. Sean, do your self a favor and try this stuff, it works. Tom |
I know we have been talking about racks, mostly, in this thread. If you remember my review of the Sistrum Mini Monitor Support System, a month or two back: Starsound has applied the resonance transference principles to their speaker support system For those that have been following this badinage, about resonance transference,and have monitor speakers sitting on Sound Anchor stands or any stands that work on similar principles; take a look at their stands. Monitors aside, they also have systems for floor standing speakers, as well. Changing from the Revel M20 stock stands, to these babies was dramatic. |
I think the basic information has been presented and discussed, pro and con, on these products. For technical information and patent documents, you can see them at the audiopoints.com website.
There will always be disagreements on what different people want. There have been some comments supportive of the Sistrum stuff, and some comments supporting other stands.
The main point that I tried to make with this thread, is that in my application, the Sistrum equipment worked even better than advertised, and I was happy with the result. I felt that their approach to resonance transfer was in keeping with my ideas on the subject. I wanted to try a whole system approach in applying this idea. I feel it worked very well.
What anyone else wants to use, is up to them. |
Hi Twl, I have kept reading this thread because I own and love Sistrum products myself (like Warren, I use speaker stands, mine under my Genesis 500 floorstanders, and a 5-shelf rack for my components). I am not a scientist and speak only from my limited experience with various racks, shelves, points, cones and mats in my system over the years I have been listening to music and trying and buying gear. I have a question for you Twl: I have placed my LP-12 on the top shelf of my Sistrum rack, with Audiopoints lined up to rest evenly on three places on the metal bottom of the table. I have thus bypassed the rubber feet that engage the suspension system. I like the way the TT sounds, but wonder if you have an opinion on whether placing my Linn on the Audiopoints like this is a good idea? I have read elsewhere and certainly from Linn that the TT should just rest on its rubber feet. My Linn has the Trampolin base and Cirkus, by the way.
Also, thank you for your thoughtful review of what you heard when you installed the Sistrum stuff. I always value hearing what others thought when they listened to something, whether they are scientists, electronics engineers, or just plain dummies like myself. As someone said earlier, our hobby is rife with subjectivity! I take all opinions with grains of salt.
And Warren, like Judit, I am a girl. |
Twl: Sorry for sidetracking your thread. This was not my intention. I only intended to introduce another product of similar pedigree into the conversation. Some of my "generic" comments were misinterpreted as being specific and for that i apologize.
Brulee: I understand exactly what you are saying. In effect, you believe that only sonics matter, the ear is the final judge and personal hands-on evaluation "rules". I think that this is "partially" wrong and here's why:
It's kind of like buying a highly recommended car that only goes 70 MPH. You initially don't know about the limited speed and even if you did, you might not see this as a problem because that is as fast or faster as you normally drive. Other end users that recommended the product may not have ever pushed the envelope to find out exactly what the product was capable of. As far as they are concerned, it always worked fine for them so they are happy and recommend the product.
One would only recognize this as a flaw once they tried to exceed the level of performance that they now can't achieve. If they would have read the specs and done the math, they would have known about the limitations involved in such a design. Even if one can't do the math, there are those that can and could have helped prior to finding out the hard way.
Audiotweak: I did not use the MGD rack as a clamp-rack although i could have. It was the same basic rack ( Deluxe Adjustarack ) but not set up to clamp. It still suffered from the darkness and compressed dynamics that you mention. I attribute this to the massive amount of weight / energy storage of each individual shelf.
General public: As to the Grand Prix rack, my thoughts are that the company actually took time to measure, look at the results and refine a product using comparative evaluations performed in a scientific manner. I was not aware that such a product even existed until it was pointed out to me and I wanted to share this information and product just as someone else had shared it with me.
Although all of the design / research test curves might not be posted, some of the figures that were derived during testing were posted. They obviously have the means to do such testing and understand the results given their background. The rack is more "involved" than any other design i've seen, although i will agree, simpler IS sometimes better. Their design deals with resonance transfer, damping, absorption, etc... As far as i can tell, it does this all at the same time and seeks to do so with great efficiency. As i mentioned to Ken Lyon though, i think that the shelves are the weak point of the design and probably need to be changed for best results.
Other than that, buy and use what you want. I've never suggested anything less than that in any of my posts. I say this even though i may have negative personal opinions about a product and shared them. We all have different tastes, goals and ways of thinking about things. One has to do what they think best fills their needs.
That is what i did and why i don't have a rack that is a commercially available product. I can't say that it is better than everything ( or anything ) else out there, but i can say that it suits my personal needs better than anything else that i've tried. I think that is what Twl was trying to say and i'm glad that he ( and obviously, more than a few others ) are happy with their purchases and took the time to share their results and findings.
I'll shut up now and hope you can understand where i'm coming from. Sean
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Hi Sc53, I also have a Linn Lp12 and a standard Sistrum Sp 6 rack. What I have found to be most effective for me is as follows. .If you remove the masonite bottom plate you will see 4 corner braces. For the Lp12 to sit on the three Sistrum points you have to make a center rear support. I used marine plywood and glued this into a groove that is around the entire perimeter of the Linn. I used this groove because this is where the corner supports reside as well. You have to make your extra rear support as wide and as deep as a Starsound apcd disc. So from the bottom up you have a shelf a point a apcd disc and then the Linn which has three braces now residing on the discs. This technique does not interfere with the Linn Lp12 suspension.. Tom |
Sarah. I personally think that you are doing the right thing, because it is generally thought that the Trampolin is not a good upgrade to the Linn.
I read some of your other posts, where you have mentioned the difficulties you had with the LP12 in your room, due to the "bouncing" it has. I had the same thing. I am assuming that the Sistrum stand has eliminated/reduced this problem for you. I think that the Sistrum stand would be one of the best stands for your application, due to the nature of its design, and it's low weight. It has good point contact to the bottom of the metal plate, and should help immensely in reducing the vibrations there.
Have you found that it has improved things for you?
And I do know that you and Judit are girls, and as a guy, girls are my favorite kind of people. And I also have a nice dog as a listening partner. :^) |
Twl I guess I jumped into a question directed at you . Sorry about that.. Tom |
Theaudiotweak, I read your post, and it makes sense. But Sarah is using the Trampolin under her TT, and it is a large metal plate that's under the TT, with spring feet. I feel in her case that defeating the spring feet on the Trampolin, and grounging the resonances through the Sistrum stand is a good idea. That is, assuming that it sounds better to her, of course. |
Thank you, Tom and Twl, for your responses. Twl, I actually sold the LP-12 that I was trying to use in the bouncy living room. It was not on the Sistrum but rather on a Salamander Synergy doublewide stand. I just wasn't using the TT in that room, for the reasons you noted. My second (and now my only) LP-12 is downstairs in my big listening/music room, on the Sistrum stand, and down there, on a cement floor that is the ground floor of my townhouse, there is absolutely no bouncing or problem when the dog flops down or I stand up, etc. I never tried the Sistrum in the living room, since that isn't my main listening room. Thanks for pointing out what the Trampolin upgrade looks like on my TT. It definitely has a metal plate on the bottom, I don't see any wooden corner braces or anything like Tom describes. And yes, to me the Linn sounds better on the Sistrum than when I set it on a nearby table, on its rubber feet w/the suspension engaged. I just wanted to verify if I was bypassing the Trampolin or not.
I was sad to part with my other LP-12, since it was my original one and I had owned it for many years. But two TTs seemed excessive in a townhouse inhabited by one person! And the guy that bought it (a local) absolutely loved it, so I know it went to a good home. He even bought the van den Hul cartridge I had on it, he didn't want to change the sound at all. |
Sean, thanks so much for this invalueable information which serves you well. I think you are also partially wrong. Your anology escapes me. Not throwing stones. No need to worry, I will no longer respond to this thread.
Twl, i apologize if i have taken your excellent thread and have been the cause of more trouble than help. I am finding it very hard not to throw more of those softly packed snowballs. Again Twl, I hope you will accept my apology. |
Don't worry Brulee. I don't mind. Discussion is what it is all about, and people don't have to agree. God knows I disagree with a hell of alot of stuff that is said on these forum pages. And I'm pretty vocal about it too. I think most people know that if the statements are made with a helpful intent, then there is no problem. |
I think we've beat this thread to death. Let's put it to bed, boys. There's more audiomania out there. Let's find it, and look out for each other...peace, warren |
OK, I'm genuinely interested and may take the plunge. But, I enter with eyes wide open, and won't be shocked if I end up on an episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit: "Audiophiles and Their Tweaks". |
I love their stuff. The price isn't terrible. I don't if it is better than sliced bread but it is good quality gear. |
Okay, what I'm saying is that there is some sonic improvement to be had from this brand of platforms and points. How much is dependent on your system. Anytime a rack or support can offer sonic improvements, instead of just being a shelf, is a bonus in my book. It is not going to magically transform your equipment into state of the art stuff. It will help take care of whatever vibration problems you may have had in your system, and will improve the sound to that extent. The worst thing that can happen to a product in this industry is to be over-hyped, because then everyone is let down even if the product does a good job, because everybody expected too much. This is a good design and will do its job well. It's not going to turn an NAD reciever into a Boulder amplifier. |
Sistrum is great- am using the amp and speaker stands, but waiting for a year or two on the rack, as I hear they may take it to the next level with a version that actuallly plugs in to the wall! Apparently, it will be significantly better then even the already superb current Sistrum multi-shelf platforms (SP-4; SP-5; SP-6, etc.) many of you are now using... |
I recently bought a specially upgraded SP-7, with seven shelves and special brass rods, and I can testify to the quality of the product, the customer service of the folks at the company, and sonic improvements. I must have over 300lbs of gear on it, and it holds rock solid. It looks great, too. I think the hardest part of using this rack is positioning 150lb components on the sharp, upward facing Audiopoints. It took a little time to assemble, but its about the same effort as Ikea furniture.
However, this thing is wonderful. It did make improvements to all my components. At first I had a SP-6, and had my turntable on small standesign rack with Relaxa's magnetic floation isolation device underneath the turntable. Then I received the 7th shelf and put the turntable on top...wow. Its that simple. I echo TWL's comments - its not going to propel a pioneer receiver into a BAT50SE, but it will help you maximize the performance of your components. |
Is there any useful information here? Looks to me like the typical Audiogon circus act where someone posts a good issue and it then gets flooded with collateral opinions, haymaker punch attacks and experiences which are tried to be presented as validated scientific experiments. And all this is supposedly *moderated*...
Lak talked with me this week and asked me to check out the Sistrum stuff and give him my opinion.
I have used the Audiopoints on one of my T4 filters and saw Lak's amplifier stands, which gives me a pretty good idea of what the designer is aiming for. What I told Lak I will tell you: I think I would do better using my approach of light IKEA "Lack" tables (per Ken Lyon's DIY recipe) and Caribbean Moca wood boards with appropriate cones (I use Goldmund) or going Jahaira's route. Jahaira's got this stainless steel rod based DIY rack. Routered 12-ply Brazilian Cedar shelves compose the structural part of the rack. He then uses granite slabs resting on cork and EVA foam pads. He also uses his DIY version of the Darumas (DIYumas, he calls them). The problem I see with the Sistrum is that although it is light and rigid with vibration drains, it lacks a vibration sump, unlike the two DIY designs I've described. Vibration has to go to some sort of sump, IMO. If you ever get a chance to look at vibration sensitive equipment in industrial/laboratory setups, you will find big stones used as vibration sumps. Enough said.
Also, the Sistrum guy offered to sell Lak some brass Audiopoint feet for his Salamander rack. I told him brass is too soft. My Goldmund cones bave high speed steel points and they still get dull. I have purchased four Polycrystal cones to make the base feet of my DIY rack. Polycrystal is super hard and will be able to bear the load.
Once again...
With psychic power and primal intensity, |
Earth is the largest of sumps that humans have available to them. This is where I placed my Sistrum Sp6 and my Sistrum Sp101 platforms for my Harmonic Precision Mono Amps. Tom |
The stones used as vibration sumps work in both directions, Tom: from the earth/building to the component and from the component to the sump. Exactly that is what's so wonderful about Jahaira's rack: The granite slabs are floating on the EVA/cork pads and are not a structural component of the rack. José's design humilliates that $4,000 granite rack people here go crazy bidding for and it cost only a tiny fraction of that outrageous selling price...
As for the Moca wood, it is an awesome sump. Its effects are nothing short of stunning at absorbing and dissipating vibration. The resulting sonic effect is breathtaking.
Call me now for your free reading!!! |
Your comments are all academic, or should I say "psychic"? :) All are good, but, despite your thoughts, you still haven't tried it. Its like commenting on the handling ability of Austin Martin - if you haven't driven one, you wouldn't know except by making educated guesses from pictures and stat sheets. You might be surprised how well a 120398123098 ton vehicle handles! :)
I own a Sistrum rack. I posted my experience, which IS informative, based on real life experience, and maybe someone else out in the community will find it reassuring to hear my story, especially when Sistrum racks aren't easily found at my local dealers. I heard the difference immediately, and I'd put my ears up against a calculus or engineering book anyday. I'd recommend others try it. I haven't heard the rack you've discussed, but I'm sure its got its good qualities, besides just price, too! Heck, I would love a rack with a beautiful wood-finished look, rather than this modern time machine contraption in my living room...
The proof is in the pudding. Get the rack for a 30-day test run and try it yourself. Post your results, and return the rack if you dont like it. |
Audiopoints attached to the bottom of the support rods are singular directional transfer devices. In no way are bi-directional devices a positive in this design type. The geometry of the Audiopoint was designed as follows: The flat surface and or the shaft are collection areas. The tip is the exit point. The point was designed to be an exit point only, it is not a re entry point. The tip of the point is therefor a coupling point. This one way in, one way out purposeful design makes the Audiopoint the most efficient coupling device on the market.You do not want to de-couple you want to couple. You want to capture extraneous resonant energy and not store or dampen it. You want to capture extraneous and resonant energy and have it exit as quickly as possible. These devices are a kin to a heat sink or polarized capacitor. The previous have a defined entry area and a defined exit point. So do the Audiopoint and Sistrum devices. Tom |
I just posted this on another thread, so at the expense of being redundant, here goes: To couple or decouple? That is the question. Isolation? Not, nearly, possible. Airborne resonances cannot be isolated, and the very things you're using to decouple will keep those microphonous evil nasties flittering around, in your system. Coupling is the way to go, and Sistrum does it better than anyone, because they not only have an excellent product, they keep the principle of coupling "isolated" from decoupling. You don't mix the two--not, if you're trying to achieve a clear highway to the good ole earth, for those resonaces to go. peace, warren |
My comments are based on a lot of hours using many types and combinations of isolating damping materials and devices in several setups (the result of a nomadic lifestyle). They are not theoretical. My experience is such that Lak asked me to check things out for him regarding this particular rack. I would never care about an expensive rack, especially after seeing Jahaira's rack in action. If this guy that makes the Sistrum had a treasure he would have marketed his concepts to the global industrial/laboratory sector and would be making far more money. It's only logical. Sorry, but I can't separate myself from being a professional scientist, a psychic and an animal... Now check this out: The point was designed to be an exit point only, it is not a re entry point. The tip of the point is therefor a coupling point. This one way in, one way out purposeful design makes the Audiopoint the most efficient coupling device on the market. Is this original thinking or paraphrased copywriting? My Goldmund cones' literature say something very similar: the body being of steel, straight at first and then funnelling and the tip made of a different material (HSS) to drain vibrations in one direction even faster, blah, blah, blah..." This is simply a thermodynamic impossibility. This is not to say that the Systrum is not a step in the right direction. It is a step in the right direction. Whether it's worth the money is another story. Can I make something better looking and better performing for less? Ask a psychic! In the dedicated listening room I'm about to set up, any floor standing rack is out of the question, BTW. As for Lak, hell, he only uses 5 Watts...he doesn't pop up the volume like I do!!! |
I'm confused about something. Tom's most recent comments about the flat side of the Audiopoint being the collection area and the point being the exit point- is consistent w/ my long term understanding of energy transfer. What I don't get is that the Audiopoints used on the shelves are pointed UP TOWARDS THE COMPONENT. This would suggest that these Audiopoints are directing energies INTO not OUT OF the components !! Can someone clarify this apparent inconsistantcy. |
