This Sistrum stuff works
I have been talking about Sistrum a little too much. I thought it best to to back off for a time. It seems when you find something that's so good as the Sistrum, you want to let others know. You keep talking too much and then you are accused as being a dealer or in league with the company. I feel that the Starsound (Sistrum) racks, speaker platforms, PCs, and their wire is as good as I have heard. In fact, I believe that you will never realize the full potential of your components and speakers without these incredible products. You have a 30 day trial. IMO, these racks are just as important as your audio gear. You also are dealing with a company that will bend over backwards for you. If your not happy, they aren't happy. You won't believe what these products will do for your system. I even warned Robert not to be surprised if I returned what I ordered. Now i have to get several more Starsound stuff. Talk is cheap. Try it out and you might find it to be the best gift you could give to your system. If not, ya get your money back. |
Welcome to the world of resonance transference. I've been there for a year and have been grooving. It's difficult spreading the word, when, for years, everyone seems to want to isolate, or decouple, and at the same time, throw in coupling devices. Most, mix the two; not having a clue that they are defeating the very principles envolved with coupling or decoupling. I love the Sistrum products. Perhaps you read my review on the Sistrum Mini Monitor platforms. I, too, use their points and racks. Unbelievabele. It is an attainable goal to couple equipment, rather than, isolate. In fact, it's just about impossible to isolate. I've said it a zillion times: how to you isolate from airborne resonances? You can't. And then the very things you use to isolate, keep those deleterious, microphonous meanies in your system. Maybe this thread will inspire more to check into the science/principles of energy transference. Good luck with your new toys. I know exactly what you're experiencing. It's cool, huh? warren |
I want to jump into the amen corner. I have a whole line of star sound products. I purchased the Sistrum racks. Sonoran plateau speaker cable, interconnects all around, and harmonic precision 110 amps. Their performance is remarkable. The amazing thing is that over time I have noticed consistent improvement. I was skeptical of the gear at first considering that for high end equipment the price was pretty reasonable. However, I started by listening to a friends cable and was very impressed. After having been dedicated to nordost for years I found the sonoran to be revealing while still retaining a certain warmth I found very satisfying. I still use nordost on a second system, but may even change on that as well. The stands are as described by others. The amps are really the blow away factor for me. I was utterly committed to going to real big boy amps. I had demod many products including krell,spectral, and Mark Levinson. All were great and absolutely was going to get the ML 436 which was fabulous. My buddy convinced me to demo the hps and after initial bad impression because of the need for breakin was totally impressed by the warm tube like character of these amps plus the rather surprising dynamic range despite what appears to be a low power match for my Revel Studio speakers. To say I am sold on this as the others is an understatement. I have refrained recentlyfrom being quite as vocal because sometimes when you really love gear here people do accuse you of being an insider. I am just a buyer. I put my money into this gear. The cable I purchased was approximately 12 40-50 ft. runs. I paid a lot, but a fraction of what Nordost Cardas, or Kimber would have charged. My room is prewired for the future Tom 10+ standard. |
I'm with Twl and Warren and everyone else on the value and performance of the Sistrum products. I have owned the Sistrum component rack and two speaker platforms (under my Genesis 500's) for nearly 2 years now and couldn't be happier. Like Brulee, I didn't want to overpraise, and overcontribute, about these products. I spent a LOT of time on the phone with Robert about Starsound products and technology before I tried the stand. I was stunned by both the looks and the sonic improvements to my system. All of my components are on the sistrum stand except for my power amp (ARC VT100 III) which is on a Sound Anchors stand on the floor--but I screwed Audiopoints into the stand in place of the supplied spikes! So I am trying to follow the philosophy as much as possible. The stand is cheap compared to other high end stands. I have not yet tried any of the Sonoran cables but may, based on this latest report from Twl and others. |
O.K., Lak and Twl, we have had some discussions in the past that have been great and very informative. Can you explain to me why the Systrum stuff is any different than any other cones? I have been playing around with cones starting with the Mod Squad Tip Toes for years. They do change the sound. The Systrum stuff appears to be just two cones, one pointed up and one pointed down. There's a guy here on AGon that pushes this stuff at me like the follower of a cult ministry stuffing literature in my face at an airport and parroting the Audio Point manifesto. Yet I am quite sure he has not tried the alternate method he so adimantly puts down. (you know who you are)I hate to say that this approach tends to turn me off and my reaction is to write it off as "kooky" talk along with everything else he has to say. I am trying to keep an open mind here and hope you two guys can shed some light on this for me. I tend to be more in the camp of an article written by Doug Blackburn in Soundstage, under the link, columns, "Exploding the Myth of the Cone Footer". Blackburn feels that they are(pun intended)somewhat pointless. He makes the case that the scientific community relies on pneumatic and hydraulic devices for use with devices like laser support platforms and microscopes and that no other apptication can be found for cone points other that in high end audio. To use another example to ilustrate the devide among some of us, who seem to agree on many other topics,I piont to Alan Kafton at Audio Excellence. You guys seem to be on the same page with him on many items, like Vouight Pipes, cryo treated Hubbell outlets,& tube electronics, yet Alan(though I can't speak for him) is selling and obviously belives in the Tounshend Audio products such as the Seismic Sink. I have no direct experience with the Systrun stuff so I am not syaing it does not do what you say it does. I don't have an unlimited budget to try every device, cable,& tweak out there(I wish I did!). I just wonder what gives here? |
I have noticed a difference in the general soundstage of my equipment since getting the sistrum racks. How much is rather hard to quantify. Frankly I am not quite as bowled over by the cones as others, although for the money the rack is a great piece and worhwhile. Most high end speaker manufacturers reccomend spikes so to a certain extent the cones certainly have credibility. With my system it is more difficult to evaluate the full impact of the racks because so much else good is going on. However, the cable and amps without question made a huge positive contribution. When my wife, who prefers a boom box to almost anything, remarks at the difference in sound when the cable was added, and then noticed even more improvement with the amps without having any knowledge that I had done anything to the system, you know something good is happening. |
Max- The main difference between the applications is airborne vibration as Warren stated. I don't know of any lab situations that include a pair of speakers playing at 105 dB peaks in close proximity to the pneumatic tables (often with 300 lbs granite slabs). The pneumatic table that I used with telescopes was close to 10 ton. They work very well in isolating the equipment from ground based vibration. The question is which form of vibration is more detrimental during the listening event, the occasional truck rumble or earthquake, or the near continuous influence due to in-room airborne vibration? This is just my interpretation from a limited understanding of the subject. I'm sure that there are others that could provide a better comparison. Good luck. |
Trial and error. I have no opinion about the physics of it. In fact, physics is inscrutible to me, and consequently bores me to tears. I have used Audiopoints for years, but in various combinations. They always improve cd players, but they were not a winner under my preamp. I also use them under my amp and sub. But in the case of my dvd, I use them under the player and then I use an AirMass under the cones. With both my cdp's, the cones go into the rack, based on sound. Go figure. I don't think it pays to be dogmatic about whether one, ah, couples or decouples. Going both ways can work, sometimes even with the same component. I go with what my ears tell me is working. Full stop |
Warrenh: I isolate my complete system (with the exception of 4 feet of speaker cable per side, the speakers and the stands), from "most" airborne vibration and doing so was quite a simple task (plus it did not cost anything). I have been using this type of setup since the early 1970's, but mainly in the past to isolate TT's (never thought that it would make much of a difference with amps and such before, but of course it does, especially with tube amps). Click on my system for the details. |
Max, from what I understand about the Audiopoints, they use a specific type of brass, and a special geometry in the cone shape that is designed to transfer resonances in a better way than just normal brass cones. I have used different cones of different materials, and read alot of copy about cones. Mostly the normal cones are working off of having a very small point of contact, to minimize vibration transfer from the floor. The Audiopoints are using a different idea, which is to transfer the resonance from the equipment to the mechanical "ground" of the floor and the earth. They may both be cone shaped, but there are differences in the shapes, and materials, and the idea is totally different from a normal cone, brass or otherwise. The design is patented, and I don't know everything about it, and the stuff I know is available from their website. However, they did work very well for me, and I have always been a proponent of "coupling" instead of isolation, especially with TTs. That was one reason that I decided on Sistrum and Audiopoints, because they have a similar philosophy on coupling and resonance transfer, as I have. I'm not saying that there are no other good cones out there, but I am saying that these worked real well for me, and better than the other cones I used, including BDR. I also believe that using the consistent approach to vibration control all the way through the system, was a proper way to approach this problem. I don't say that everyone will want to use this, or should trash their existing stuff and rush out to buy this. But I do think that it worked for me, and if people are in the market for a set of points, equipment stand or a rack, then maybe they should take a look at this stuff. It performed well and it looks nice, in my opinion. That's what points and racks are supposed to do, and this does it. And they have a money back guarantee, so if you don't like it for some reason, you can return it. I don't see how it could be any easier to find out if you like something. I liked it, and I see from some of these posts that others do too. As far as air bags and stuff like that, I never was a proponent of that type of isolation on TTs. Every soft isolation I ever used under a TT totally killed the sound. I even have posts that are almost a year old about that in the archives. I now find that coupling works well on the other components too. It may not be for everyone, but it is good for me. |
As far as "cones" go, different shapes, materials and the placement of the cone under both the equipment being supported and the point that it makes contact on the shelf will all effect things. Try reading the article below. It is not an "end all" in regards to coupling / isolation by any means, but it is very interesting none the less. Sean > Stereophile article "Bad Vibes" by Shannon Dickson |
Twl, thanks for the reply. I do wonder if it is dependant on the type of floor you have? I have a carpet covered, plywood and wood joist floor, over a shallow crawl space, for my listening room. I can't imagine wanting to transfer any more vibration into it. This is why I asked you and Lak specifically to respond as I sort of have an idea where you both are coming from. I find MOST of the other posts to be of value as well. I asked this question because there seems to be such a high degree of polarity on this topic. Yes I am an isolation"ist" and can see from my system listing what I have been up to. Just trying to get as much info as I can soak up. |
Twl; an interesting thread. Just a point re coupling vs decoupling: all of Steve McCormack's early DNA amps use BOTH. The DNA amps have big Sorbothane feet for isolating the amp from degrading vibrations at the front of the amp, and they also have a steel spike located toward the center rear of the amp to drain vibes from the amp into whatever it sits on. I've owned many DNA amps and have found this dual system to be effective, and of course Steve McCormack was one of the pioneers in the field of vibration control in high end audio equipment with development of his "Tip Toes". I've also found that additional vibration control with the DNA amps to be effective depending on circunstances. Cheers. Craig |
Garfish, that's an interesting idea. I know Steve M. is a very knowledgeable guy. I wonder what the idea behind the dual-method is? Maybe he is just covering all the bases, in case one method isn't working, the other one will. I don't know. All I know at this point is, that what I have now is an improvement over what I had before. A pretty good improvement, and it uses the resonance transfer method. I previously tried all the typical things like tennis balls cut in half, and styrofoam platforms, and different cones, and all the usual stuff. This Sistrum stuff did alot better for my system than any of the other things. So, that's good enough for me right now. I'm not selling any of this stuff, just reporting on it. |
I think the only way to protect your equipment from airborne resonances is to place everything in a vacuum. Yes? Problem is you should also place your speakers in the vacuum, because, they too, suffer from the deleterious affects of airborne resonances. Sand, and the like, unfortunately absorb the good resonances, as well as the bad. No distinction is made by the sand, lead, etc. I don't want to beat you, unbelievers, to death with this rap.. It works for me, and I'm very happy with the Sistrum products. Starsound Technologies offers a money back guarentee. You can't beat that with a stick. Put it to your tympanics, and then call me... peace and happy listening,warren |
Max, I have a floor that is very similar to yours. I have a wood floor on traditional suspended joists, over a crawl space under the house. I don't have a carpet. I use rugs on the floor in front of my speakers to keep reflections down. But my floor is just like yours. I think what is happening is, that somehow the vibrations in the equipment are carried down to the floor, but the vibrations don't go up from the floor into the equipment. I don't know exactly how they do this, but this seems to be what is going on. Something to do with the geometry of these cones and platforms. They work differently somehow. And the results are unmistakeable. My system really sounds better, and I can play louder with less distortion. That is a big plus for me. Some unwanted colorations were eliminated from my speaker system. That was really nice. If these items didn't work like they said, I wouldn't have gotten this kind of result. That's the bottom line for me. And if I didn't like them, you can bet I would have boxed them up and sent them back. I'm not a millionaire. |
Twl and Garfish, I have been using Audiopoints for the last 8yrs and the Sistrum products for almost 3yrs. I have found with much experimentation that Sistrum alone is the best way to play your hi-fi. You cannot mix and match dampening and resonant energy transfer. As a pair they proved to me to be ineffective and tended to mask and hide detail all the while limiting dynamics. Sistrum grows on you. Once you hear it make your system grow in size, dynamics and detail you will go on a feeding frenzy wanting to buy more. As for the Sonoran cables they are as Twl and KSales spoke, detailed dynamic, smooth as silk yet revealing of differences in program material. I also own the Harmonic Precision Mono amps. These amps are a beautiful extension of the whole theory of resonant energy transfer. The shape and chassis design are an evolutionary progession in to the extraction of electro/mechanical/airborne noise from the electronic siginal path. 110 watts per chn may not sound like much these days driving a pair of still almost Dunlavy Sciv's full range. The Harmonic Precision amps offered a more detailed and faster bass line than my Krell Ksa150 and a larger more detailed and focused soundstage than my before unbeatable Essence power amp. Yea this stuff works. All of these products are an extension of each other all apart of the same food chain adding up to dynamic coherence. These little guys are onto something BIG. Tom |
Warrenh: Looks like you missed my post One only has to place the electronics in a closed room/closet (outside the listening area) in order to do away with most airborne vibration. If I had to choose between a special rack/shelf system (which I already use) and placing the electronics outside of the listening area I would definately go with the latter. As I do not have to choose I do both. Anyway, it seems a bit odd (to me) to spend thousands of dollars on an isolation system for the electronics and then place them/it in the listening room. |
Dekay,what do I do with the clothes in my closet? My closet is not wired with dedicated lines either. I could use my daughter's room, but that would mean speaker runs of 30 feet of unsightly garden hose. Pretty costly. Plus, my daughter might be a little pissed at this idea. I could use my paint and tool closet, but the smells in there, alone, might have a permanent stink effect on my system. This would be kind of like my dentist, who goes out of the office, when he zaps me with some x-rays. So when I'm listening in my easy chair, I take my remote control, open up my closet, or go into another room and zap my cdp, and then go back to my listening chair. Ooops, too loud. Back I go. I run enough miles a week. Dekay, you got something there. Good luck with it. My clothes are staying in my closet. peace and happy listening...warren |
OK Warrenh. So what other products have you tried? I assume that you have owned all of the Bright Star products? The Seismic Sink? The Vibraplane? You oppinion must be based on something other than just what propaganda you read on the Star Audio web site. I just get a bit weary of you telling me over and over and over how wrong I am on this topic as you said your self "beating you(me)to death with this crap", oh sorry, make that rap. I would just like to establish that you have some shred of credability. I, on the other hand have been involved in experiments on this topic beginning in the mid eighties. What were you doing then Warrenh? I bet you were busy watching cartoons. Oh, but the TV was on cones! |
Dekay, If you place your audio in another room your speaker cables are still attached to your speakers and your speakers are attaced to the floor, which may or not be on the same floor but are still modulating your system. Are your cables immune from airborne modulations? Are your speakers immune from the modulations they produce in the room they are placed in? Are your speaker cabinets immune from the sound pressure feed back from room boundaries? Do speakers and cables feed back signal upon themselves and the amplifier attached to them? I know this to be so.. And so the continuim progresses. I feel that Sistrum and Sonoran have take these truisms into account upon their creation. After 35 years of being an audio enthusiast I have never before been so fortunate as to have been exposed to a product or product line such as the Sistrum Science.. Like Twl said... this stuff works.. Tom |
Maxgain, Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. The wife's business computer is down and she's using my computer; therefore, I had to wait to get online. I cannot give you a better answer than Twl's. I think using audio points and some of their other products (sticking with them and not breaking the link) seems to add to system synergy. I'm not saying it's the best product out there, but I've tried several others and I prefer audio points. I hope this is helpful to you. |
I should know by now when to get away from a post. The warrening signs were there very early on. Thanks for the informative post & review Twl. I was hoping to hear a bit more from Larry as I value his opinion as well. Like I said up front I am from a different camp. Time to go back there. I don't think Jimmy Carter can bring the two sides together on this one. I guess there is nothing more to learn here. Latter guys. |
Lak, thanks that's about as good an answer as I can ask for. I am just wondering if you have ever discussed the matter with Alan Kafton, as you guys seem to see eye to eye on so many other things. As for you Warrenh, it was simple question. But that is what I have come to expect whenever I see your user name appear in a thread. P.S.I think you may be drinking way too much coffee already. |
Tweak: Of course anything in the listening room is exposed to airborne vibration. However the rest of the system (placed elsewhere) is not, to a much greater extent than if it were placed in the listening room and incorporated with anything that Sistrum produces. You need to get real and why are you even attempting to argue this point? Draining airborne vibration once it effects a unit is far less productive than eliminating the airborne vibration in the first place (surprised that you have not figured this out, given 35 years to do so). My speakers are wired with single runs of 26 gauge solid core wire which is contained in a very thick Teflon surround and the amount of energy transmitted back to the power amps is much, much, much less than they would receive if they (the amps) were instead situated in the listening room (common sense dictates that the difference is @ least 100 to 1 and it's probably considerably greater than this). Again, I find it odd that one would go to the great expense of using special racks/shelving and then end up placing them in the listening environment. Warren: In the dozen, or so, places that I have lived over the years there was a suitable closet (or adjoining room) in all but two of them (most rooms are located off hallways which contain closets and the next best thing is to use an in-room closet). I'm married, have had kids living in the home, etc., and as far as I am concerned most closets end up being filled with junk unless used for a better purpose. The hall closet was used for linens and a bit of my clothing which has since found better homes in a couple of bed chests and a shelf in my wife's clothing closet. We are planning on converting a living room closet to store LP's as 90% of it is also filled with junk. Power to the closet I use is supplied by my two power conditioners, though having a line installed would have cost much less tha the two inexpensive conditioners. I am not dissing Sistrum products @ all, just the ridiculous claims which often accompany them, (guess Pogo was right afterall:-). I use Neuance shelving on a modified rack, so am not unaware of the basic pricipals, but instead am making the point that much better results can be had by placing such rack/shelf systems outside of the listening environment. If you are attempting to address vibration then first do so (as much as is possible) at the source and then follow up treating the symtoms of what's left over. |
Twl, have you thought about trying the coupling discs for the audiopoints? They're pretty nickel & dime compared your total, there :) (I actually have the discs, and your post has reminded me to get points for my electronics. They sounded better than thick carpet on hardwood floor for my speakers, but I don't think that says much here). I couldn't heartily recommend anything without experiencing the like-priced competition. Is your praise for the platforms simply cost-benefit based on your total audio experience, or are there other platforms you have tried? |
Dekay,, To "get real" as you say is what it is all about. You infer there is no true form of isolation. Hey you are right! There is no true form of isolation. Every thing resonates and moves so why fight Mother Nature. Sistrum Science explains the principles of capture and release of electromechanical and airborne resonant energy, so why the conflict. If you use it there will be no conflict in your system. Everything will become perfectly clear, especially if you place Sistrum platforms under your speakers in a so-called---------- ( isolated listening room ) and your components on a Sistrum rack in a so called------------------------------ (isolated location ). Tom |
I respect Tom's opinions primarily because he understand this stuff better than I do. However in setting up my system I took great care to create a dedicated equipment closet. While it is next to my listening area and is accessed by doors from my listening room the doors are a heavy duty acoustical doors. Its unfortunate some of us get a little touchy on these threads, but such is human nature. I am sure everyone means well. This debate about equipment separation is ripe for a whole new thread. Tom's point is that the resonance created by nature is present in the separate listening area and in his view the total concept of the starsound stuff reduces these resonances or vibration. I obviously agree to a certain extent since I bought the gear. On the other hand I don't understand the physics enough to adequately weigh in. Personally I think it is helpful to isolate equipment and have always attempted to do so. I would say I was in a minority among high end enthusiasts in that most of the really good system I have heard place the equipment front and center. Frankly from a physics standpoint I don't know the answer. Someone else will have to address the issue. |
Ohlala, I didn't use the discs under the points, because after my conversation with Robert at StarSound, he said the points would work better without the discs. The discs are to protect the floors or equipment, and actually get in the way, a little. I didn't have to worry about my floor, so I didn't get the discs. On your second point, you got me. I didn't have any other quality point or rack system that is available from a manufacturer. I only had my own DIY stuff, and I did use a couple of other cones like BDR. My recommendation comes from the fact that I liked what I got, and felt it was more than worth the money. Nobody can really try everything there is, so that has to be taken into account as well. These are just my impressions of these products in my system. |
Dekay. I used the closet technique before, a long time ago. My current situation does not allow that. But I think the idea has merit. However, some of the best improvements I got were with the platforms under the speakers. These improved the coloration problems I was getting from vibration in the cabinet, and this cannot be solved by putting the equipment in the closet. Also the closet does have airborne vibrations present, because the walls and closet door will vibrate when the music is playing. I agree that it is likely to be of a lower magnitude, and I see the logic in your approach. I think that using a Sistrum rack in the closet would be a good idea, to take care of the remaining vibrations that make it into the closet. Or you could use nothing. It doesn't matter to me, one way or the other. I just choose to have these things because I like what they did. |
We can go on and on, with this whole closet thing. I have done that too. I can tell you more about Sistrum rack placement in your room. But I will refrain because I know if I post this finding it will only stir up more antagonism. Try the product.... money back guarantee... call Robert he is extremely knowledgeable and is fun to talk to, if you don't believe him or he cannot answer your questions ask to speak to one of Starsounds engineers or even the chief designer. My final response is simply that these products are above and beyond any thing else out there.. They are so unique they deserve to be in their own special catogory. Tom |
Hmmm... The APCD2'S geometrical design draws energy away from the tip of the Audio Point™ and transfers it to the surface the disc resides on. In most cases the APCD2 and Audio Point™ combination will provide more sound quality when used in unison. - A.P. website Well, I bet no one has accused you of being most cases :), but Sistrum seems like a typical retailer. "On your second point, you got me." I just wanted to clarify before members jump out of their windows and head for Uhrichsville, Ohio 44683. "Nobody can really try everything there is, so that has to be taken into account as well" But zero - your point was better without that sentence, but your report was definitely better than nothing. Thanks for your reply. I'm glad they worked out for you. |
Tom: I still find a decent rack to be needed. The differences between footers and shelf material seem even more pronounced with my current setup. Many of the items that were OK when used in the listening room are no longer used as they just do not sound right anymore. I doubt if I will be able to budget any Sistrum speaker stands in the near future, but I might consider their floor spikes once I build floorstanding speakers for the living room (have not owned floorstanders since the late 70's, but they will be a nice change as I am tired of looking @ metal stands). I ended up with a pair of Stephens Trusonic 8" full range drivers that I will be using in BR cabinets (don't think that they would work in TL's like yours). |
Dekay, that's cool! I never tried the Stephens drivers, but one thing is for sure, you will hear what the benefits of directly driving the speaker, with no crossovers, can do. If you like the coherency, then you could move up in drivers if you want to. There is something about single drivers that is unlike anything else. If you get addicted to it, you'll be a nut case like I am, with all kinds of weird gear. I'm not bullshitting anyone about these Audiopoints cones. They reduced the cabinet vibrations in my speakers and reduced the midbass colorations quite noticeably, and allowed me to play louder than before. That is more than I ever expected from a set of cones, so I think they are worth it. When I moved the cones under my TT, and put the Sistrum speaker platform under the speakers, those worked even better. YMMV. |
Not to detract from the information included in this thread or the experiences of others, i found the information and design process of the racks at Grand Prix Audio to be a steeped in actual "technology" and "science" rather than the gimmickry and marketing that most other "audiophile approved" products resort to. This is not to say that i believe or agree with all that they have to say, but that i found it be a very good read as to how / why they developed the product that they did. Try reading through their website and see what YOU think as an individual. If it makes sense, so be it. If it doesn't, read it again : ) Sean > |
