Happy Friday! All
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
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On New Years eve here in California I am hunkered down and listening to a new headphone and new headphone amp that sounds so much like my Thiel CS3.7. Today, I managed to score demo units of the RAAL SR1a ribbon headphone and the RAAL HSA-1b headphone preamp/headphone amp. This headphone can be driven either by 2 channel amps, a special Schitt headphone amp ($800), or likely the very best combo, the RAAL HSA-1b (what I have now for demo). Why am I writing about this on the Thiel thread? I am posting this here because these beauties sound like my Thiel CS3.7. These headphones are supposed to be the most speaker like headphones in the world. I have to agree. they give a very nice forward sound and not the inside your head headphone sound. There is a rave review on AudiophileStyle.com on this headphone. Where the guy is saying is it good as his $60K Wilson speakers. I can actually see that. This is very much like my Thiel CS3.7. I have the Thiel's running great and these phones sound like it. Compared to my $3K Meze Empy headphones these RAAL SR1a blow them out of the water. I tried these headphones with my Matrix DAC, Benchmark preamp, and the Benchmark AHB2 amp and it was a little too strong on top. It was also a little underpowered. I am going to get a Halo May KTE R2R DAC for the Thiel system in the future and that will lower the high temperature from my Delta Sigma Matrix DAC I am using today. I also tested the AHB2 with my warm sounding Sony SCD-1 SACD player connect to my preamp which was connect to an AHB2. This sounded a bit like the HSA-1b but it was a little underpowered compared to the dedicated headphone amp (damn it cost $4k). This was a single AHB2 in stereo. These headphones slurp up all the current from the single AHB2. I have a second AHB2 coming next week (I hope) and I will try to test it out with close to 600 watts at 6 ohm. The dealer I got this from loves the HSA-1b headphone amp but he also says a pair of Bryson 4B-SST in mono putting up 600+ watts is better than a single AHB2. So these are very power hungry if you use a 2 channel amp. I am definitely getting the SR1a headphones but will think my AHB2's will also work with a warmer DAC. If I had the cash I would just get the HSA-1b to drive them. Happy New Year. |
Well I got my 3.6 in today. Ran them on the adcom. There’s a definitive grittiness with the newer thiel adcom combo that wasn’t there with the 3.5. I’ll probably keep the adcom for the 3.5 and start looking for a smoother amp. Parasound a21 or a21+ I think. Richard from parasound said that they will do fine with the impedance curve at my budget. |
Beetle - how did that Halcro amp weather the ages? Its circuit topology seems reminiscent of the BM AHB-2 in layman's descriptive terms. Indeed specs don't tell the whole story and harmonic distortion can be a particularly beast since low / even harmonics sound sweet and odd and highers sound non-musical. |
@tmsrdg re Thiel SI-1 (from 12/15) I purchased an SI-1 about two years ago to integrate a pair of JL Audio f112s with my 3.7s. It's in perfect working condition, and I have yet to experience any problems with it. Sounds like I'm lucky on that score, and hope that doesn't change. @tomthiel, it would be great if a repair option for the SI-1 does eventually arrive. The SI-1 replaced a PXO that was driving a single SS1. In my experience, both the PXO and the SS1 deliver perfectly (to my ears) seamless integration with no fussing around. However, the active SI-1 noticeably improves the mid and top end performance of my 3.7s relative to the PXO. The high end stays sweet to well beyond any volume I'm interested in hearing. At the time, I was concerned that switching from the SS1 to the JLAs would mess up the integration, but there's no sign of that audible to me. |
Just as a note of caution, the direct correlation between SINAD and overall sound quality for amps and DACs has not been established, and I would be careful not to believe everything that Audio Science Review says or implies. Over-interpreting small differences in distortion at levels well below 1% may not be the best way to choose an amp. Fortunately, the sound quality of audio gear has improved significantly in recent decades compared to the typical amps produced in the 1970's and 80's when Stereo Review's worship of ever lower levels of distortion prompted many audio engineers to design circuits that measured well (at least on standard measurements) but sounded bad. I certainly hope that we don't embrace a future that forgets what we learned in the past. Measurements of audio gear are important as part of the design process, but designing gear that actually sounds like real music to the human ear/brain should be the ultimate goal. |
Thank you all for the responses and especially for the link to the google doc. It gave me a lot to think about. Tom's point hits a little close to home ("fullness, richness, lushness, warmth"). The pursuit of such "ideals" has led me to consider B.A.T. and PS Audio for their promised "tube input stage". But is distortion really the goal? And how do I know I'm getting the "right distortion", haha. The consistent message I've seen is that Thiels (including my OG 2.3s) like current, so I've been looking in the 400+ wpc @ 4 ohms range. But the rears (OG PowerPoints), while still rated @ 4 ohm, have recommended specs more in the 100 wpc range. So maybe the most cost-effective (but kludgy and/or boring) option for me is to replace my pre-pro with a good AV receiver (Looking at Denon, possibly Anthem), use the onboard amps for the rears and possibly height channels in the future, and then just use the three still-working Krell amps from my old Home Theater Standard as the front three. |
That Benchmark system in TAS is my system, except I sold the DAC3B last week. I will buy it back later in 2021 since I already miss it. I also did a test with a single AHB2 and turned on mono operation to get more power. I then ran it on 1 CS3.7 speaker. I liked it a lot more since I got more bass and things seemed more energized. So I bought a second AHB2 that should arrive in a few weeks. @tomthiel The Benchmark preamp, preferably the HPA4 over the LA4 because of the bonus headphone amp. I hated headphones prior to getting the HPA4. The Benchmark preamps also make their DACs sound better because the volume control on the preamp is much better. The preamps are quieter than the DAC3. I am now thinking of trying out the RAAL SR1a ribbon headphone driven by 1 or 2 AHB2 amps (not the HPA4). RAAL used the AHB2 to develop the SR1a. BTW - I have at one time owned, DAC1, DAC2 HGC, DAC3 HGC, DAC3B, AHB2, HPA4 and all Benchmark interconnects and now speaker cables. I love this gear. |
Thielrules - thank you for posting that amp list. There is a fairly widespread belief among audio pros that audiophiles prefer distortion to provide qualities they call "fullness, richness, lushness, warmth", etc. I must confess that it took me quite some time living with the Benchmark AHB-2 to appreciate its lean directness as being correct. I now delight in its simple clarity and hear other amps as adding artifacts. I am using a PS Stellar Gain Cell DAC/Pre. It's nice, but PS gear lands pretty far down the list. I am coveting a listen to the Benchmark DAC/Pre. Is there a similar list of preamps? |
Questions about the proper amp for Thiel speakers come often up here. I would answer such a question by inquiring what is your standard and weakest link in the chain. I have yet the standard for myself to have a resolving chain of 16 bits or better, which translates to a thd+noise of each component better then 96 dB. With a streaming source of music or a high quality cd player, the (pre) amp becomes the weak link. Here is a link to a database of amplifier measurements by 3rd parties. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZlTOYxmPs938gqHjtDABkWS-MApu7uJjzIGnJ2Elm6Y/edit?usp=sharing Benchmark leads the list and hypex based amps are well represented near the top. For the diy, the plate amps of hypex are a great and affordable option to have a complete digital chain from beginning to end. |
Hey thanks! I guess I wrote all of the above to think out loud, and what I'd really like to hear is opinions on current stereo amplifiers for 2.3s with an emphasis on music. It looks like the brands I'm familiar with (I've been out of the loop for 15 years, haha), Krell, BAT, Classe, all have current, hi-current offerings. But I see others, like PS Audio and Emotiva, that I've never heard of. |
Greetings all. I've read this thread over the last week, and have really appreciated the info and discussion. I'd love to hear your amplifier opinions, if you'd indulge some background info. Due to ongoing complications related to the plague, we've finished our basement and I've moved my desk down there. All of that inspired me to set up my audio equipment after five years of storage (we moved to this house 5 years ago. So... I have a 5 channel setup, a big tv, and a new couch is coming. We like TV shows and movies, but music is much more important to me. All this stuff (not the TV) was bought back in 2001 when I was excited about multi-channel SACDs and concert DVDs. Now most of my music comes from Apple Music (2 channel streaming, don't judge me) but I just ordered a Pink Floyd box set that comes with Blurays of some albums and live shows. Favorite music is all over the board, including Tool, Radiohead, Elbow, and Alice in Chains, but also modern jazz, classical guitar concertos, bluegrass, and more. I have 2.3s for the mains, an MCS1 for center, and 2 OG PowerPoints as surrounds (what we called "rears" 7.1 brought "back" speakers into the world). These are matched with a Onkyo PR-SC866, Krell Home Theater Standard and two SVS CS-Ultra subs running on a Crown K2. I have mild sensory processing disorder, and am very sensitive to treble "ringing" (think trumpets, violins, and similar audio icepicks). Audessey MultiEq has been a godsend in this area, as I've been able to use a rolloff curve that almost entirely solves the problem for me without feeling making things sound muffled or muddy to me (which just "turning the treble all the way down" used to do). OK, a lot of background info I guess (sorry). Just one more thing. I can only get three of the Krell's five channels to work. I haven't experimented a whole lot with it yet, but I did attempt to replace a fuse on one of the channels with no luck. I've looked into repair, but it seems Krell has had some trouble over the years and at best I'd be shipping this 100-pound monster away ($$) leaving me with almost nothing for a while. So right now I'm not running my subs at all, I have my 2.3s running off of the Crown K2, and my center and rears are running on the three working Krell channels. If I do nothing more, it already sounds "pretty darn good", but can't quite reach the heights I had with the setup at the old house playing, say, a Nine Inch Nails concert. I have an eARC adapter coming out of my TV that I'm using for source switching which works fairly well but feels like a band aid. So anyway, I'm looking at options and I want to maximize joy without being stupid. But I know that "reasonable" means something different to everyone. I want to give the Crown back to the subs. Option 1) I could replace the pre-pro with a good receiver, and use the three Krell channels for the L/C/R and the receiver amps for the rears and possibly some height channels. Or, Option 2) I could buy a nice stereo amp to drive the L/R and use the three Krells for center and rears. Option 3) I could replace the Krell with a new 5 channel amp, try to repair and sell it. Option 2 appeals to me. Getting a musical but powerful stereo amp to make music on the 2.3s sound as good as I can get them sounds like the most fun and potentially rewarding. But I don't know anything about amps and would love to discuss options with y'all. Thoughts? |
Actually it took three upgrades to make mine *perfect*, though the first one was just the ’basic’ upgrade of the time. I imagine by now it’s a labor of love, as Steve is past able to retire if he chose. He’s spent decades listening to the best passive discrete parts to mix and match into his existing circuit boards and amp topology, as you say, knowing exactly how to tailor his suit to fit us. Just a couple examples of ’business as usual’, as part of my middle-of-the-road (non-Thiel-specific) upgrade, he uses 10" of some massive Shunyata Copperhead AC power cable to just connect the rear AC input to the front panel power switch. 1" per channel of some sort of carbon fiber conductor to go from the WBT NextGen RCA input jacks to the circuit board. 4" of Van den Hul high-end speaker cable to go from the output transistors to the Cardas speaker terminals. And that was in 2006 as part of a B-level upgrade! The beauty is that for some time he *did* the mass production, dealer network, advertising, at least on a modest scale, and enough to have a long-running well-regarded set of products, that were a big bang for the buck as his designs allowed for modest parts to sound ’good enough’, and little money was put into cosmetics. A good design is still a good design, optimized by the parts and their integration. Just look at all the recycled vacuum tube circuits from the 50s and 60s that are used in today’s top gear with fully modern parts in the signal path and support circuits (power supplies, auto-bias, layout). It would seem he could extract a bit more by further optimizing his circuit board layouts 25+ years later, but that would be a question for Mr. McCormack to assess price vs performance, a calculation he’s always excelled at... It's this designing for the long haul I find similar to Thiel, and find this approach to be of personal value to me in the components I choose to make up my audio system as a whole. And other products of note I own... |
SMc has worked on my amp twice making upgrades. Both were very successful. I suppose one advantage is that Mr. McCormack will "tailor" an amp to fit your needs and purposes. Like a good suit, instead of buying off the rack, Steve will be sure you get what fits. I am not surprised that your amp did well in comparison with others. At this point, SMc upgrades are essentially a hand-crafted product/solution w/o the need for mass production, a large dealer network to support, and ad budgets, etc. They can focus on what sounds best rather than worry about all of the requirements of running a large and complex production and sales operation. If they hear something better, it does not require a big redesign or operational change. This ongoing R&D may eventually run its course and further improvement may no longer be possible given whatever limitations the original amps create. Sometimes one must start from scratch to do better. Tesla seems to be working on that angle. But for now, and into the foreseeable future, what SMc Audio does seems to work very well. Perhaps this is why and how SMc can compete with more expensive amps. |
yabe1951: others here have heard from me -- some years ago now -- of Steve McCormack thoroughly upgrading my DNA 0.5 to optimally drive my CS2.3s. A complete success, that was only bettered when I started using CS2.4s as I still do today. The same Plitron transformer in the smaller 0.5 makes for power doubling 125/250/500 wpc into 8/4/2 ohms, absolute stability into 1 ohm, an alleged 60A peak current. He put in a few other tweaks specific to my 2.3s, as well as his established upgrades he was using at the time for a 'revision B+ Gold' designation. Steve knows his design cold, and can optimize any of his amps for nearly any preference or load. My avatar is the internals of the reworked amp, if you can possibly make it out. This was completed in 2006, and just recently this amp, at a high-end audio shop, was the best-sounding amp of five modern $5k-$16k power amps, driving a pair of Aerial Acoustics 7T speakers. To me this is sort of old news, but your post confirms I shouldn't take what I have for granted! |
I have been happy with my long-time "Thiel friendly" McCormack DNA 1 (with SMc Audio upgrades). It provides sweetness and excellent midrange detail. Soundstage presentation is also 1st rate. Wide, very deep, and gives the impression of the music appearing to be at once a "whole" presentation with each instrument or voice being heard as completely distinct and apart from the others. The top end is articulate but not overly analytical or forward. The bass improved with the addition of the SMc Plitron transformer option, but this is no 100 plus pound monster amp. I would describe the bass as tuneful and accurate but slightly lacking in the chest-thumping slam and weight department compared with the really big amps with overbuilt power supplies and extra heavy-duty metalwork- Think Krell, Levinson, Moon, Pass, Classe & Bryston, etc. However, it does the double down trick with really impressive current capacity and drives the hell out of my 3.6es. https://www.stereophile.com/content/mccormack-power-drive-dna-1-power-amplifier-1992-measurements-pa... In addition, these amps can be customized by SMc Audio to fit your system or needs. Steve McCormack has many decades of knowledge (wisdom!) gained by experimenting, careful listening (to systems and customers), and refining a brilliant design architecture. In my experience, McCormack is an excellent pairing with Thiels of the 3 series and smaller variety. I do not know how a DNA 1 would drive the larger 6es & 7s, but for my 3.6es (3.7s here and unboxed but not installed) it is glorious. McCormack made some bigger amps that might do the trick on 6es & 7s or I suppose you could have SMc configure DNA monoblocks. I do not have audio memory long enough to completely recall the last time I heard Thiels with another amp. However, I do remember Classe as being very good, lush, and smooth sounding. I did hear 3.7es with an Ayre front end and amp that sounded a bit flat and emotionless, but that was a very long time ago in a demo room with 3.7s that might have been just out of the box. Anyway, you may want to give McCormack a try. Oh, and if you hear any top-end edge, try a tube preamp. I have an ARC Ref 3 that helped open up the sound stage and beautifully refine the top end. Happy holidays and happy listening. |
No DVD-A or SACD playback with the UB-9000 (pretty much just CD, DVD-V, Blu-Ray and UHD Blu-Ray). It will, however, play up to quad DSD files. For me, it's not an issue as I don't play discs. I have disc spinners in every system (in some, multiple ones) that have been rotated from old systems. Pretty much the only time these get used is if someone brings a music disc over once a year (if that) or a movie is played. The UB-9000 also has a bunch of playback settings. Those include six types of digital output tube settings (to make the unit sound a bit different on each different simulated setting). The unit is also built like a tank. I have not followed recent developments about the unit and the only other caveat I'd offer is that it doesn't have a dedicated app (unless they have come out with one in recent times) like the Oppo players did. That means one needs to navigate through files via a display with some exceptions. In my case, I have he DS Audio App which comes with the file station on my Synology NAS and I can navigate through the files easily. The UB-9000 IMO is worth its price as a stand alone CD player. However, with many people using outboard DACs, one can buy a nice DAC for around the same money. For machines such as an Oppo, one can also convert SACD discs to output 24/88.2 and go through an outboard DAC. Of course, Oppo players these days tend to sell for a pretty penny (I've actually though about selling the Oppo 203 which now sits in a guest bedroom with my old UHD TV and never saw tons of use as I only had a bit more than a handful of UHD discs and I have my main system for music and other systems as well). So I personally don't have much use for disc spinners. |
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Is your Pannasonic 9000 player the most current universal spinner?" Yes - the UB9000 is their flagship. I also have the (Panasonic) UB820 in the main system, which is the model down, but just use that for video and it is better than the Oppo 103D I had in the main system for that purpose. I has an Oppo 203 in the system where the UB9000 now sits. The UB9000 smokes it on both audio and video. I have the Oppo 203 in the upstairs bonus room system (basically a guest bedroom) with a 55 inch UHD. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/panasonic-dp-ub9000-uhd-player-review.143... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXMNz0doK2U |
I do not have a good baseline to compare and offer an opinion. My COAX was wired out of phase and also wired incorrectly between the tweeter and mid-range (on 1 COAX). This COAX was likely damaged from that second mess up. When I got the speaker home I definitely could hear some nastiness with that COAX. I could not hear it at the previous owners place. So I attribute that to amplification or me not listening so intently. |
@yyzsantabarbara I've read Meta reviews too, from a consistently slight improvement over the original to a significant technology leap for all box speakers. As I've no experience with the original, I doubt I'll be let down. Like I said, the intent is not to replace my Thiels. Recent Stereophile measurements clearly show Meta tweeter wired ouf of phase vs original, though no mention in KEF white paper as to why this should be so. You have your share of experience now with out-of-phase HF units, any idea why they might make this change? I've been very impressed with Blade 2, but admit it would be tough to choose between a known-good-quantity at half price, and a likely very-improved upcoming Meta model, as I had to decide at a much lower price point last week with the LS50. But if it's not about 'smart money' go for the newer Blades: as with the LS50, they'll be tweaking more than just the tweeter rear wave absorption. I've probably taken this far-enough off-topic by now for a Thiel forum... |
@sdecker Congrats on the LS50 Meta. All the comments I have read on it indicated a very nice performance improvement. The Meta are doing something like what Vivid Audio is doing but likely more advanced. I wonder if the rear cancelling Meta allows closer front wall placement. Reviewers usually do not give this valuable info. I am deciding on the Yamaha NS5000 or KEF Bade 2 for my downstairs system. Buying this is all dependent on a stock investment I made. A few years ago I sold my old stereo system and put it into this stock. So if it hits I will spend a bit of money on the living room system without anxiety. I am waiting on KEF to trickle up the Meta tech to the Blade 2. I am under the impression that is in the works. Blade 2 are going for half price used now and is the smarter buy but this next 2nd system is not about being smart. USAAudiomart is free and rather good for selling. Though last night I put up an ad for a WANTED AHB2 amp and I got a scammer redirect me to his/her web site to scam me. I figured it out after some customer support conversation with someone in this group. However, for selling, USAudiomart, is very good. A’gon is also still pretty good. |
Playing catch-up for the past month of this forum. tomthiel: The Philips CD-80 you reference. That was introduced in 1989 (not 1985) for $900. I auditioned it at the time, along with the one-model-lower CD-60 that I bought and used for a decade (later with an Adcom GDA-600 DAC) before getting a deal on a CD-80 that I still use in my bedroom system today. You're right, this was likely the best CDP of its time, overbuilt like a tank electrically and mechanically, with some of the best control flexibility ever. There used to be threads of reworking the CD80 electronics, not as a 'modder' might, but more like Philips might in a "Mk II" to correct and optimize portions of an otherwise brilliant design and execution. yyzsantabarbara: I've taken renewed interest in your threads here and elsewhere about your Thiel and KEF LS50 experiences, as I just picked up a pair of LS50 Metas to 'supplement' my CS2.4 due to a neighbor hypersensitive to what little bass transmission between condos exists, even with my room and 2.4s optimized for minimal LF bleed. Both the stands and speakers will remain unopened until after the holidays, but will be curious how the two speakers compare based on your observations. I have listened to Blades (1&2) at length, but was never in the market for an LS50-type speaker, until now, and the choice was clear. Though i was less clear as to whether the previous version on closeout, or the meta before this batch sold out. Are you going Meta? Finally, I'm going to try again, the first time in years, to sell my mint pair of CS2.3 in maple, complete with the original shipping boxes and manuals. These are later-production models with the already-updated XO and coaxes (the latter replaced at least once). I haven't sold any audio of 'substance' in many years, Audiogon doesn't appear to be what it once was. How and where would this group suggest I go about selling my 2.3s, and for how much? |
gasman117 I seem to recall reading about RCAudio. I am currently contemplating cabling myself. I tend to stay away from any product sourced to china (Most U.S. companies unfortunately)? After I clear this Holiday season, the first brand auditioned will be Swisscable from Switzerland. I will keep this thread posted on my findings. Happy Listening! |
Will do yyz...thanks... first listening comparisons...still so much more to do..given my modest backing of Classe DR15/DR4 pre and analog only on Rega P8/ Alpheta 3/ Rega Aria the 2.4’s detail is insane incredible and definitely better at lower volume than the Mag’s but the 3.7 wall of sound and super sweet upper mid and highs are amazing as well especially at slightly higher volume. Thiel’s base is tighter too but my amps may need upgrade to fully satisfy and expand the 3.7’s base...ear Nirvana on both and still a work in progress...same as most everyone here...haha Brian Ferry : Bete Noir Chet Atkins :CGP Dire Straits Jean Pierre Rampal/claude Bolling Suite for Flute and Jazz Piano...highly recommended btw Time for some rock n roll.... |
Have a look at the AudioByte VOX | ZAP | HUB (1 power cord needed for all three same units. This is going to be my next DAC system ($6K). It will start to get more press in the future. An initial slow burn of awareness like the Mola Mola Tambaqui that everyone is now raving about. I am keeping my Benchmark DAC3B but will also have a second with the AudioByte stack. The tech in that is incredible. |
Amazing how much value one can get from the used market albeit with a bit of risk....makes complete sense since you had the dac...T2 on initial look seems exceptional for my needs but not necessarily at a value price given the rapid changes in the dac/streamer area. although it does seem it is at least somewhat future upgradeable. I have a-lot of cd’s as well so thinking the dac in the T2 would be beneficial vs my current old California audio labs player’s. |