very cool to hear about the design feature for the CS7 speaker Tom. A gentleman on YouTube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pF_Fe0nRXHg gave his personal review of it. StereoNiche
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,679 responses Add your response
Thanks Tom. I was thinking of the internal shape of the cabinet and bracing as well as the shape that is displaced by any port of any shape or length Those right angles of corners, braces and oddly shaped ports must generate turbulence and interference and blowback that impede airflow of the intended cone motion. Maybe I will make a clear top panel and place a smoke device inside so I can view the turbulence generated by all the contained boundaries. A passive radiator or two maybe the cleaner way to travel especially inside a poured or cast cabinet. TomD |
Tom Thiel did you or your brother Jim ever study or observe any benefit of the structural placement of driver's or port tubes as they relate to laminar flow inside of a speaker cabinet. Are there any published studies on turbulence generated by internal cabinet shape or attached support obstacles? TomD |
Hey all, wondering if anyone could provide any insight to an issue I'm having with a pair of Thiel CS 2.2's I'm working on for somebody.
The woofer in one of them just won't stop farting/bottoming out. They're both OEM woofers and I have an OEM replacement and it does the same thing as the old driver. I don't know if they have different max power handling capabilities but that is what it sounds like. There are no tears from the cone to the spider, the voice coil isn't rubbing, there's no sag in either driver, they test within spec, and they sound fine at low volume. 30Hz tone test makes this ghastly flapping sound, and turning anything with heavier bass on causes this to happen. Meanwhile; the other speaker sounds great at all volumes. I've already repaired the surrounds on the passive radiator and nothing is rattling in these rock solid cabinets. I'm at a loss, anybody have any ideas? Could this be a crossover issue?
Thank you! |
Speaking of fans my Music Fan reduces speaker baffle and room boundary effects. Makes for more focus within a larger soundstage. Bass has greater articulation like applying a giant comb. I would expect Doug and Tom’s film approach could've be applied to room surfaces as well as many different brands of speaker baffles. Congratulations to Team Thiel and all their cooperative and diligent work! I am working on an applied formula that has a negative Poissons ratio and when applied to surfaces reduces their shear velocity. The closer a material’s shear velocity is to the speed of sound is in air the better the transfer of musical energy. TomD Congratulations to Team Thiel! |
Please do report back on this when and if. Excellent news. Thank you. |
I apologize in advance for many of you who have heard this before . . . I am a big fan of the sealed bass in the CS3 and 5 series. In fact, Thiel was philosophically committed to sealed bass in its upper models, while allowing reflex bass in its lesser models with the cost savings reflected in the lower sell prices. The main advantage I see in sealed bass (whether equalized or not) is the phase / time coherence all the way down to the low limit, and then 12dB/octave to subsonics. That is radically different from reflex bass which attenuates the woofer at 24dB at its bottom and the port at 24dB at its bottom and top rolloffs. That puts the foundational deep bass a full wavelength behind the upper frequencies. That's 20+ feet, depending on actual tuned frequency. Philosophically that runs contrary to Thiel's committment to wavefront integrity. When that direction was coming to be in the 3.6, the mood was more relating to what others' products (even with 6-figure prices) were getting away with. Some of us are more sensitive to the philosophical integrity, and others notice the sonic discontinuity of reflex bass. Note that Thiel reflex bass is executed as well as I've heard it. Look at the clean graphs and the tight tuning. But . . . it's still not the real thing. |
unsound, The CS 5i delivers thunderous bass with impact and authority. Not that it is a one trick pony and deficient in the the other frequencies but the bottom end ir very rare to hear in a speaker like this. The CS 7.2 has a 12" woofer whereas the CS 5i utilizes three 8" as I'm sure your're aware. The CS 5i bass is faster. The bass notes are more dynamic and hit you quickly reaching its peak, then dissipating in reverse fashion to utter silence. I equate this to a head jolting acceleration in a Koenigsegg to 100 mph then to a dead stop. Exhilarating.
|
@duramax747, I look forward to more, especially images. That you were using CS 5i’s is of special interest, as I’ve been a long time admirer of that particular model. |
unsound,
Allow us to get her make-up on before we reveal to the public. I'll leave describing the room concept to Tom as he was the designer of the room. He asked what perimeters he had to work within, as far as footprint, and he went at it from there. I will say when first introduced I was confused in its non conventional approach. But if you want to get to the fruit you need to go out on a limb where the branches are their thinnest. I proceeded to demo the old space which had 8 ft. sheet rock ceilings. It had tile floors on a concrete slab so not an easy demo. I came into work earlier @ 3;00 am and performed my moonlighting gig before I had to leave to conduct my day job duties. I will go more into construction details when I post images of the room and after I perform my "To DO" list of modifications. I will say the focus for the room was not to hear/or the ill effects of 2-3rd reflections at the listening chair. No side wall dampening was ever designed. Tom and I both agreed on a very dynamic space for the Thiel to clear her throat and show us her range. Our first round of testing we concluded we did not need any side wall acoustical treatment. In fact within the first hour of our listening Tom and I both agreed the .500" thick natural wool rug between listener and speakers should be removed. It was and it oped up even more. I will reveal more later but will say the floors are a significant part of the room. I had just socks on while listening so I could feel the floor. It was not moving the slightest. I wanted to push the room, especially with the CS 5i, and load the room. We were playing a very unique track with kettle drums and other various percussion instruments. Bass was in the mid 20hz with some of the track and Tom thought we were in the 98-102 db range. As I stated if room was going to fail I wanted Tom to be there and hear it under serious load. Even under this extreme circumstance the floor was rock solid stable. Another item checked off the list that did not need any revision. The rear wall is where we really deviate from a conventional room. With our back to that wall there was absolutely no reflection that smeared the sound coming from the wall. Another really cool feature is the built in Bass/diffuser traps in front wall corners which measured incredibly well. They were not constructed on a bench then installed. Instead we constructed them in the room and built them into the building's framework. The pair took a considerable amount of time to construct and assemble that I did not anticipate. When Tom arrived I had to ask him how long it took others to build these devices into the framework of a house/building as I felt like they had gotten the better of me with the man hours devoted to their construction. I was looking to be validated dam-it. Tom looked at me straight in the eye and said - No one dared to move forward with such an undertaking before until you. (Paraphrased). I felt like this was a pull my finger moment that an older brother would pull on you. I bit. When I was making the bass/diffuser traps I thought to myself I am going to pay tribute to the man who establish the standard as to what a book matched veneer speaker should look like. When I was making the panels I decided to do the same and match each panel in Bass/diffuser with it's sister. When completed the panels are 18ft apart center-to-center and they look like they were sawn in half to mirror one another. I felt a certain satisfaction so I did not reveal to Tom. I was going to surprise him on his visit. When I thought the appropriate time presented itself I mentioned to Tom what I did. Again he looked at me and said " I noticed that when we first sat down and started listening to music".
|
tmsrdy, A pair of CS 3.7 are on my list to purchase. They have to be in very good condition and within a reasonable driving distance for me to purchase as shipping is not an option with the high risk of damage. With that said, as upgrades are being made I can test what Tom mentioned on a pair that I hope to get and can report back. I already have SCS4 monitors, CS 2.4, CS 2.4SE, CS 2.7, CS 6, and CS 7.2, and two pair of CS 5i. I feel I possess a reasonable representation of Thiel owners regarding speakers. I am also getting a pair of CS 1.6 from a former Thiel dealer. What passion they still have for the Thiel brand. I have spoken to a few and their zeal is infectious. I bought a pair of CS 5i, in upgraded walnut finish with original plywood crates, spikes with case, and manual all in pristine condition. He drove them to the facility, which was a fair distance since he got a hotel to spend the night. He offered to set them up for free. Oh by the way the delivery was free also. He had cost with gas and hotel. However, finding a good home for the CS 5i was more important to him than his cost to deliver them. Truly an exceptional human being. I mentioned this story to Tom and he asked who the dealer was. When I told him he laughed and said I remember him when he was a little boy working in his grandfather’s shop and seeing him when I’d go there. Hearing stories such as these reenforces the commitment Thiel had/has to their customers and dealers. When I was speaking with the Thiel dealer, he said with other speaker brands he carried, his customers constantly upgraded or moved on to other brands. Thiel owners were far less likely to do that. They had/have a loyalty to the Thiel brand. These are not my words but the dealer’s. This and Tom’s visit has pushed me to fast tracking this dedicated listening room with the modifications needed after Tom swept the room when conducting his testing. I guess I will put all the speaker models in a hat and pick one out each day and that will be the speaker I listen too. Or maybe Tom could devise a diffuser wheel that can be spun in the room, and get better sound, that will select a speaker when it stops spinning. Okay now I'm just showing-off. Using Thiel’s motto- what we will do "For the love of music".
|
tmsrdg - patience is the key. The 3.7 is late model classic Thiel. Its ’needs’ are far closer to ’wants’ than earlier models which have far more real problems, upgrade potential and far more head-count in the field. But to address your question, there will be a multi-pronged development and delivery. Each model will have its own upgrade protocol. Your 3.7 drivers are ’settled’. Your crossover will have some user installable upgrades. Specifically some of your Yellow Styrene 1uF bypasses will have replacements by way of custom Reliable multi-sectioned caps, in either aluminized or all-copper, as well as various non-inductive resistors. At some later date those upgraded parts can be re-used in a new serpentine XO layout, either inboard or outboard. This first-offering upgrade will also include a set of wavelaunch films which can be applied by an adept user / or via some other arrangement - as yet unknown. Similarly a new internal wiring harness will be available to be routed through the existing soft tubing, possibly with additional hold-downs. The new cable has less structure and depends more on mechanical support from the cabinet. These examples are illustrative of future vision. At this time we are starting with training wheels with the SCS4, either extant, or new higher-grade specimens. Lessons learned there will be applied to next-step offerings, addressing older models with larger problems, such as replacement drivers and generally more room to grow. CS1 through 5 models will get early attention, starting with the CS3 / 3.5. This information is a peek behind the curtain. There is ongoing work being done and many moving parts. Cheers, Tom |
tmsrdg, The last iteration, which implemented this new technology, had me scratching my head. It was very obvious something significant changed from the last iteration, This is when I just wanted to sit back and listen to music thru these monitors. We didn't conduct any tests with CS 5i after this. After we listened to the last song, Tom clapped in applause to what was experienced. I immediately asked Tom if this can be done with my beloved CS5i and he said "absolutely" and every other Thiel speaker. I was so motivated from this, that being in a 117 degree attic in the south, in the mid of summer addressing the issues Tom and I agreed needed attention, doesn't even calculate with me. I'm on a mission. Next visit Tom will have a fully upgraded pair of SCS4 with their new stands. |
tmsrdg - it’s weird stuff, and addresses something where Thiel already excels. The terrain is the integrity (or not) of how the driver energy translates into the limp air-mass for you to hear detail. Thiel’s bezels, waveguides and curved baffles with pebbled finishes all address this issue. But further research demonstrates the audible effects of wavelaunch turbulence. In short, the moving driver diaphragm moves air up to its modulus of deformation - it misbehaves as it tries to establish a coherent wavefront in the air. By modifying the surface to better manage the sheer forces and turbulence in the boundary layer between the non-moving baffle surface and the moving propagation wave, we define wave-fronts with considerably more integrity. Douglas has patented two interlocking technologies: one addressing the propagation surfaces and the other managing the boundary layer behavior in the port itself. I was exposed to this nascent tech in 2018 and have been co-developing it for these past 5 years. A surprise is hearing a type of sonic improvement where you wouldn’t expect needing any. |
I'll throw some thoughts into the mix. Critical listening in an unknown space with unfamiliar gear and recordings is a challenge. In this case, the room had been designed to be modifiable for feedback from FuzzMeasure analysis, with which I am quite familiar and fairly adept. The room features a structured masonry / brick front wall and solid, infill masonry side walls. Such a rigid room makes for exceptionally clean sound, but carries downsides of pesky modal behavior. We borrowed 2' behind the listener from an adjoining room for a tunable chamber. Room side, right behind the listeners, is a unique porous wood-sliver panel, floor to ceiling, wall to wall. The acoustical panel drop ceiling at 10' has a 2' x room-sized chamber above to generalize the floor-to-ceiling modes. That sealed chamber still needs two short dividing walls to isolate it from a very large attic space. Chasing slap echoes, tuning modes and identifying further work to be done on the 4 deep-set windows consumed much of our time. We used music along with test tones and sweeps for this work - any music with broad-range content would work - and did. By Sunday morning we could compare and contrast the playback system elements under consideration. Reference cables included Morrow and Straightwire as well-known to me, and some serious foreign contenders that Max knew and loved. We settled on the Morrow as baseline to demonstrate my TRX interconnects and internal hookup wire. TRX is Thiel Renaissance X (24th iteration) - of major conparisons, not all TR. We benchmarked via Benchmark, Iconoclast, Cardas, Audience, Straightwire, Kimber, Morrow, and many home-brews to try out ideas as they surfaced. Suffice to say this wire dive was way deeper than the original late 70s exploration, the 1988 CS5 re-examination and the 2005 survey for the CS3.7. Incremental progress was made via input from the above-mentioned collaborators as well as advanced interaction with MIT operatives. I am aware of wire skepticism. My approach is not fundamentally skeptical, but is strictly evidence-based as well as requiring theoretical foundations. This family of analog signal cables embodies those requirements. Most of all, it must perform demonstratively well on all fronts. I have employed a hefty handful of listeners along this trail. This trip expanded to include duramax747's assessment. Feedback/ input has been extremely consistent and positive. Disappointments and dead ends have mostly been attributable to available materials and compromised methods of the prototyper's constraints. If I were to propose adjectives, they run toward clarity, detail, and depth of structure. All support Thiel's core performance attribute of 'vivid solidity'. The measurements support the subjective sonic experience. The outcome reflects the lessons learned along this deep-dive journey. We are especially encouraged because among prototyping limitations is working with available materials and methods. I use magnet wire with polyamidimide insulation - far from audiophile standards. My positioning filler is fibrated polypropylene, which is first-rate, but my hand twisting loom is far from the precision of real planetary machinery. A technical description of the cable will have to wait for decisions by the working group as to IP concerns. Back to Max's room near Charlotte - we had various iterations of the SCS4 from stock Thiel to fairly hot-rodded - TRX internal wire to outboard XO with serpentine layout honoring waveguide principles with elements arranged for optimized field interaction, upgraded cabinet edge treatment, custom proprietary multi-segment caps from Reliable, and fluid dynamic wavelaunch technologies from Douglas Pauley. This wavelaunch tech is the most surprising and exciting aspect of this redevelopment work. I would have never thought that Thiel's already excellent anti diffraction wavelaunch could be qualitatively improved. The improvement allows the soundfield to hang in space. Max's first response after demonstration regarded 'projection'. Among the multiple causes of that 3-D spatial projection, Doug's wavelaunch tech leads the pack. I believe that we have developed synergistic, meaningful, cost-effective methods to take my brother's designs to a higher performance plateau without modifying any of his work and achievements. I am encouraged. Back to music. Max had a variety of big, bold, well-made recordings. I used two for orientation: Patty Larkin's 'A-Go-Go' which is a composite of live, on-stage recordings / one woman with her guitar with minimal artifacts. Straight-forward, well-done music making by a master whom I know, who's guitar and maker I know well, and that I have heard live in my small village venue. I believe I know her musical intentions. The other was Dana Cunningham's premiere 'Dancing at the Gate' which I produced from a simple music-school stereo recording to DAT and mastered with no compression, EQ or other artifacts. Contemplative piano on the half shell. My post-Thiel life includes lots of piano involvement including an innovative bridge and soundboard bracing system. These artists are interesting, involving and careful with their presentation. Subtle playback system mods track better when we care about the music. Last weekend was a wonderful musical experience for me. |
jafant, This really wasn’t about gear. It was about testing the room and proving concept. it wasn’t until the third day (Sunday) that we really listened to music. Even then it wasn’t ideal as my tube pre amp left channel wasn’t firing so we worked around it. Our next visit I’m hoping to have a BAT VK-90 pre amp. I’m also working on some Bricasti M32 mono as well.We will have a little variety to test a few amps and pre amps. I also have the Esoteric K-01XD on hand as well as highly modified Wadia DAC from their glory days. Above I mentioned gear used which was Pass Labs XA 200.5 amps and Bricasti M1 SII DAC and M19 SACD spinner. We used Tom's Benchmark gear as well. |
@duramax…during the short transport from the car into my house one of the speakers suffered a fairly noticeable surface scratch on its back, otherwise both were in excellent condition. The scratch didn’t pierce the veneer but it is there if you listen from the rear. Doh! As someone who has previously owned a few models on the past, I will say that my immediate impression is that these are the closest to what I loved most about the 3.5’s - that at low and moderate volume level they leave nothing to be desired. I played a couple of tunes that I like to use when seeing what a speaker is capable of doing. “Crocus” by Ani DiFranco and “ Down To The Well” by Kevin Gordon. (With more than a helping hand from Lucinda Williams.) The former for the bass and the latter for overall timbre. The CS’s didn’t let me down. The only thing I can say about the treble is that it strikes me as being a little less resolute than what I got from 2.4’s and 3.6’s, but this is quibbling. I am cussing respectfully the legacy of Thiel with these only because I find that placing the connections on the bottom of a 170 pound Easter Island sculpture is just…. I won’t be cable swapping on these any time soon. Updated pics in virtual systems. Thanks to everyone. |
oblong, Great choice of speaker in Thiel line. I have a pair in zebra wood. Unfortunately mine has some cosmetic issues from shipping. I discussed this with Tom and my plan is to refinish them with a beautiful automotive finish. I have new grill cloths and drivers so it will look like a new speaker when I'm done. I'll get photos when I get her make-up on. |
Tom, I’ll get some images of the room soon. Meanwhile I have my list of "To Do’s" that needs to be accomplish before your second visit. I had a customer stop by the other day to pick up some parts we made for his Clearaudiio turntable. He wanted to see the room and was like a kid in a candy store. The custom bass traps you designed Tom was one of the design elements in the room he was intrigued with. The floor was another as well as the overall design and vibe of the room. Next visit I hope we can give the CS 7.2 & CS 2.4SE the mic and let them sing. Exciting stuff. |