I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Dsper- remove the screws and the xo slides out like a drawer. Unsolder all wires from the post lugs and find the drivers with a 6v lantern battery. Install a second pair of posts for the new input.
Mixing amps is treacherous. Gain and other characteristics must match and blend well. Can you conjure two volume controls?
@jafant
I am not familiar with AudioSpace CD player? Tell me more.
AudioSpace is a Hong Kong company owned by Peter Lau. I purchased his CD8 cd player in 2010 from Underwood Hifi. It had a Phillips drawer and Burr-Brown PCM 1732 chip. There were two output stages so you could listen via transistors or three 12AX7 tubes.
I used it as I moved through the Magnepan line to their 3.6's. I could never particularly tell a big difference between the transistor or tube output stages.
After I moved to Theil CS3.6's, and then to the CS5i's, I started to play with DACs and used the CD8 as a transport only. I tried the PS Audio PWT as a dedicated transport and it brought much more detail and resolution to the sound.
I listed the CD8 on Audiomart and was surprised when I had three different offers and sold it within a week. Probably let it go with too good a deal! The new owner said he loved it and was rolling tubes. Different strokes I guess.
@tomthiel ...Bi-wiring is not only feasible, but easily reversible if desired...
Hi Tom, Now you really have me thinking. I set one of the CS5i's on its side (laying it on a throw pillow so I had purchase to stand it back up again. Heavy buggers!)
It looks like I can access the existing speaker terminals by removing the plate that is held in place by the eight screws. Assuming that is correct, I should be able to see the wires coming to the existing terminal.
If I can sort the wires out, I should be able to separate the woofers from the rest of the drivers.
Without actually looking at it (not exactly ready for that yet), then there must be some way to repace the existing terminal with a "two way" terminal so that the woofers go to one terminal and the rest of the drivers to the second terminal.
Am I on the right track with all of this?
At that point, I could keep the DNA-500 for the bass drivers and utilize, say, a tube amp for the mids and highs, correct?
Just changed out Fleetwood Mac for Heart. Hearing vocal nuances I have never heard before. Sounds like the Sorekris DAC is an improvement!
Good to read that your employing Synergistic Research (SR) cabling. Are you using a full loom? A Don Sachs pre-amp is highly regarded. I did not know that he was still in business?
You will have to educate me about full loom. I know hardly anything about interconnects! The Alphas are probably about twenty years old and I tried them based on a suggestion made by a C6 owner. I purchased one pair for the DAC/preamp and felt they made a slight improvement. I added a second pair between the preamp/amp and that definitely made an improvement. I think going all Alpha was the key versus different brands. My old interconnects were Cullen Cable.
As of three weeks ago, Don was in still in business because I have an email from him confirming my order. Great guy! He is knowledgeable, straight forward, and passionate. He patiently answered all of my questions and was willing to tell me what I might not want to hear. Our email string has covered a number of weeks and Don shared his take on speakers, solid state versus tubes, and DACs. I am looking forward to the arrival of the preamp because if it lifts a veil, I expect that will move me closer to a live presence.
I am retired and listening to a remastered Fleetwod Mac cd "Tusk" while I write this. Can't do this all day though as I have dead shrub to remove from the garden. Anyway, sounds pretty darn good! Very resolving cd that clearly sorts the vocals in the soundstage, which is extending outside the speakers. Wow! Good ambience. The solidness of the CS5i's comes though in spades!
dsper - among my blue-sky imaginings for the CS5, you picked the one that is actually feasible. Bi-wiring is not only feasible, but easily reversible if desired. And it's quite simple; the wires from each circuit go all the way to the single binding posts. So, adding a pair of posts simply requires unsoldering and resoldering 3 pairs of wires at the input terminals.
Thank You for the follow up. That is quite a collection of gear. Conrad Johnson/McCormack will become a lively, sonic, match for the CS5i loudspeaker. Good to read that your employing Synergistic Research (SR) cabling. Are you using a full loom? A Don Sachs pre-amp is highly regarded. I did not know that he was still in business?
Thanks for the detailed response. Despite my "live presence" complaint, to my ears the CS5i's are wonderful speakers and I would hate to mess with them too much.
Having said that the bi-wiring idea seems like something that could work without too much triage. Is this the type of thing that can be done by a relative novice (I have replaced woofer surrounds and installed new capacitors in old Large Advents)? I suspect that it is more complicated than simply cutting a wire in each speaker and then rerouting through another set of speaker cable connectors.
When I first got the Thiels, the big concern was finding an amp that could manage them. That took a couple of years to figure out and included lugging around 150 pound amps on loan from my area dealer. The first problem was finding enough current to satisfy the bass drivers. I thought I had it solved with a Coda amp (300 wpc) but I discovered that it lost steam and sounded harsh and constrained at high volumes. The DNA-500 solved that and powers the CS5i's effortlessly at any volume. And it weighs only about 75 pounds.
The next issue was finding a DAC that did not sound bright or harsh with the tweeters. After a lot of in house auditions I found a Hegel HD25 that seemed to do the trick. However, I still was not completely happy. I had been reading good things about the old Theta DACs. I found a ProBasic III for five or six hundred dollars that was definitely superior to the Hegel in my system because it was much smoother and organic.
The aha moment came next when I replaced an AudioSpace CD player with the PS Audio PWT. The added resolution was an ear opener. The additional detail helped the music sound more alive but not more analytical.
I think this taught me that the tweeters were only as a good as the signal they received.
Fast forward to the new Soekris DAC and the same thing happened. I am hearing more detail and the CS5i's are inching closer to sounding like a "live presence" without being analytical. I want to stick with R2R ladder DACs as both the Theta and Soekris are R2R and have been positive moves for me. To my ears, the tweeters do not mate well with Delta Sigma chips.
I think finding a front end with the most amount of detail would be a good thing for the tweeters, hence my continuing DAC quest. I am also wondering if updating the transport would help. Figuring out which one will be another whole story.
So lots more work to do before tackling the analog side of things! In the meantime, the classic vinyl rock collection will have to be happy with a Technics 1200SL table with KAB mods.
I find my 3.7s very lively and satisfying at low volumes. I've read that the superior drivers didn't need the very complex crossover that earlier models did. I also run stereo amps bridged mono so the gain is high and I have found that to result in a livelier sound. It might just be that I find the increased distortion pleasing but whatever it is I prefer it.
Dspr - I’ll jump in and ask for any and all detail you might develop around this exploration. The ’come alive’ characteristic is something of considerable note in Thiel’s history. After "New Thiel" bought the company in 2013, long-time industry supporter Steve DeFuria came on as sales manager and acting general manager. He experimentally stripped down the XOs of some models (don’t know which) to lose the tight tolerance control that Jim applied to all his drivers. Those simplified crossovers had less stringent frequency response tolerances with less than half the parts count. The listening panel results included "more alive, especially at lower volumes".
In the case of the CS5(i), there are 32 elements in the time delay circuits for the lower and upper midrange drivers. I speculate that removal of those bucket-brigade lines would make the speaker more responsive, but at the cost of time focus. In the 1988 development of the CS5, I wanted to sculpturize the baffle to geometrically time align those drivers. Jim liked electronic solutions - that being his wheelhouse, and we got bucket brigade delay - with 32 extra coils, caps and resistors.
I recall the first Stereophile review by John Atkinson and Larry Archibald who made the 'not alive' complaint. I recall (vaguely-perhaps another product) that substitution of Goertz flat wire raised the veil, as did short cable runs.
I will speculate that bi-wiring would help this problem. Those 3 woofers take tons of current to nearly 10Hz. The electromagnetic propagation effects of that current on the higher frequency time domain reactivity would be substantial. If you split the signal, I suggest ganging the 3 woofers separate from the other three drivers. Jim would disapprove only if you used disparate cables for the two runs. Of course the ultimate configuration is with 4 amps - two pairs of Benchmark AHB-2s would do nicely. We can always dream.
Your present experience points to a big disappointment in Jim’s career and a prime motivation to adopt reflex bass alignments in the upper end products. From the peanut gallery, I see serious merit in further development of his first approach - sealed bass with various means of augmentation. Perhaps a more refined equalizer? Please keep us informed of your experiments and comparisons with other gear.
Good to see you here again. If you are the kind of Audiophile whom enjoys rich texture within musical passages, the competition, will always result short. What gear is in your current system?
Hi jafant,
You may be sorry you asked!
I am still sorting things out as I feel feel my Theil setup lacks that "live presence". Got a pair of Tyler Acoustics speakers along with CJ LP66S tube amp. Pretty musical with the CJ 17LS2 preamp. Definitely different for me and a work in progress.
Current main system: PS Audio PWT, Soekris DAC1421, CJ17LS2, DNA-500, Synergistic Research Alpha inconnects, and Thiel CS5i's with thicker than lamp cord for speaker wire. Analog is on hold until cabinet/space logistics are worked out.
The Soekris DAC has about 100 hours on it and may replace my Theta ProBasic III DAC. I believe (I think) the Soekris is providing more detail that helps with overall sound quality including more bite on the front end of bass notes, better ambience, better liquidity, and deeper soundstage. I am in the $3000 to $5000 budget range for a used DAC and the Soekris is meant to educate me about current discrete Ladder DACs. Sounds pretty good for 900 dollars and about 3 pounds. Will spending the extra thousands result in better sound or just in owning another thirty pound DAC?
I have a Don Sachs preamp on order with different output capacitors to manage the 10K ohm input impendance of the DNA-500. The experimentation with the tube amp convinced me to sell my Prima Luna Dialogue preamp and I wanted to try another preamp. The PL just came across as too analytical for my taste/setup. I have been told that the Don Sachs will be like lifting a veil from my speakers. We shall see. Might give me the liveliness for which I am searching.
I am toying with making the plunge to try tube monos with the Thiels. Will not be a cheap endeavor and flies in the face of a lot of advice on this and other threads. I am thinking about Carver 350 monos as place to start as they are supposed to be stable into a one ohm load. Otherwise, things become much more expensive.
Feedback about any of this is desired and appreciated!.
Good to see you here again. I am impressed with all of your systems! Which brand(s) of cables and cords are you currently using? I believe that you are the only Panel member here utilizing SST Ampzilla. Looking forward in reading more about A/B shoot-outs. Enjoy the Music!
I just wanted to follow up on my earlier post about SST Ampzilla 2000 monoblock amps. I've spend some quality time now with the Ampzilla's powering my CS7.2's. This setup is actually the Ampzilla monoblock amps as well as the matching Ambrosia preamp. My main system is an ARC Reference 3 preamp driving a pair of Levinson 436's. I've also recently used an Aragon stack (Aurum preamp + Palladium 2K amps) with the 7.2's. So far, I am really impressed. My listening space is medium sized (15' x 30'), but the SST setup seems to drive the speakers every bit as good as the Aragon setup. I need to do some sort of A/B with the ARC/Levinson setup and to try them with the CS5's. However, my initial thought is these are very much worthy of driving a pair of Thiels. They have great control of the speakers, are DEAD quiet, and otherwise don't seem to get in the way of the imaging and accuracy that Thiel speakers are known for. I know the cosmetics aren't for everyone, but I think at today's prices (you can get them new for a fraction of "retail") they are a relative bargain.
(Chris) Thank You for the kind words. It is my pleasure to offer an avenue of pursuit for us Audiophiles who enjoy Thiel Audio loudspeakers. I can hardly await to read more about your Audio journey, and of course, 19 Thiel speakers !!!
Thank you for the welcome and more importantly for you having started/creaated this thread 5+/- years ago. It is a joy!
Tom Thiel’s countless contributions to this thread are so wonderful. Tom sharing so many details of the formation, guiding precepts, theories and mission of Thiel are absolutely fascinating. In particular, Tom saying this somewhere in the first 100 pages of this thread was the TRIGGER for my account below of my own early audio journey.
Tom Thiel - “It bears noting that Jon Dahlquist of DQ-10 fame came from aerospace and that he used 18ga twisted pair solid copper in teflon when the rest of the industry used ordinary stranded wire. Hmmm.
My summer of 1977 revolved around identifying and sourcing wire and other components that ended up being 99.9999% pure, long crystal, low oxygen, etc. in teflon or varnish from ITT, developed for NASA. As far as I know, we introduced "wire" to the audio industry, or at least we didn't hear about "wire" from anyone else beyond noting Dahlquist's unusual choice.” – Tom Thiel
In 1972, I was a starving recent college grad from the Cornell hotel school. I sort of helped, but mostly watched, a friend build homemade speakers from stock Radio Shack parts. I thought they sounded pretty horrible, but found the project fun. Somehow, I came across the first issue of The Absolute Sound and subscribed. In issue 4, the Dahlquist DQ-10 was reviewed, so I bought a pair. By 1975, I had purchased and myself installed a fairly elaborate after-market upgrade kit, which included replacement ribbon tweeters, different mid-range drivers and something called “polypropylene capacitors”, the latter somewhat esoteric for the 1970’s. I removed and re-installed all the speaker drivers so they mirror imaged each other. Crossovers of DQ-10’s are positioned on a shelf behind exposed midrange drivers. Then I damped the crossover and drivers with modeling clay and removed the woofers in order to access the woofer cavity where I damped the entire interior with modeling clay. Those speakers are still in my attic. As you might imagine they weigh a lot. Initially I drove them with pre-owned Audio Research SS preamp and gear. Later with a conrad-johnson PV-2A and dual Hafler DH-500 amplifiers, each of which I assembled myself from kits from zillions of parts and a soldering iron. I still have the Sota Sapphire turntable with Black Widow tone arm and moving magnet cartridge that was the system’s front end. All in original boxes in my attic.
That DQ-10, c-j, Hafler, Sota Sapphire system somehow survived my multiple moves for several years as I general managed various resort hotels in Florida, Georgia, San Juan, St. Thomas and St. Croix USVI. By the mid 1980’s, marriage and raising children changed priorities and while I enjoyed that same system, my Audio-Video journey didn’t “re-activate” until 2003 with discovery of the Thiel PowerPoint.
I hope I am not straining the patience of anyone reading this. The relevance will eventually revel itself. A clue is that currently own 19 Thiel speakers!
Good to see you here again. If you are the kind of Audiophile whom enjoys rich texture within musical passages, the competition, will always result short. What gear is in your current system?
Welcome! Good to read that you are another fan of the CS 3.7 loudspeaker and Conrad Johnson electronics. Reading through this thread, I chased the 350 Premier for quite a few years. It is an incredible Power Amp! You are fortunate to own one. Also good to read that you are located in the greater Nashville area.
Take your time, enjoy reading through this thread. You will find several fans and owners of the 3.7 model. Enjoy the Music!
Excellent descriptors for Thiel Audio loudspeakers in general.
Plus1!
I hear high end B&W's regularly and agree about the peaky tweeters. I would characterize them as too bright a treble for my taste. B&W sounds impressive in the showroom but would get on my nerves for longer periods of time.
I have a desire to try a tube amp and tube friendly speakers to see if I can capture the "tube magic" in a speaker that sounds like a Thiel. Listening sessions with what I have listened to so far (Sonus Faber and Klipsch) end with me comparing to my CS5i's and the contenders come up short.
I've been a "lurker” on this site since February. Started on Page 1 and am currently on Page 103, Jan 23, 2019. I've been an A'goner since 2003, about when I installed my initial all ceiling-mounted 5.2 surround sound system comprised of first version Thiel PowerPoint 1.0's and two Velodyne DD-15 subwoofers.
I am 72, about Tom Thiel's age, and my audio journey started in the early 1970's. It has been fun! I intend to gradually fill in some blanks that touch on some of what I've read in the first 103 pages here, plus a Thiel-specific story in 2007 that may interest this discussion group. But first, a fast-forward to my current Thiel circumstances.
Waiting for me when I return first week of June from an off-shore sail aboard my boat (< my other passion) are a pair of Thiel CS 3.7's, a conrad-johnson Premier 17 LS2 tube preamp and a conrad-johnson Premier 350SA amplifier, all gradually acquired since February. None have yet been set up or even unboxed.
The Thiel CS 3.7's are very early serial numbers 33 and 34. They were shipped very carefully by the seller from Vermont in original Thiel boxes strapped to a wood pallet. Having read on this discussion thread that the 3.7's had more than one crossover iteration, I contacted Rob Gillum about serial numbers 33 and 34 and had considered having them shipped to his Coherent Source Service shop in Lexington from Vermont for inspection and refresh. Rob kindly replied to me as follows on March 1:
“I am glad you found the CS3.7’s for sale. There was an upgraded crossover made for the CS3.7 at serial number approximately 517,18. The newer crossover was made on a PCB. The original crossover or Rev. 1, is the crossover in which you have purchased. The original crossovers (like yours) were done with point to point soldering, on a riveted masonite board. This is the crossover which I like best.
Another update to the CS3.7 is through the coaxial driver (mr/tw). The original incorporates a silver basket and bezel. When we received the coaxes they varied in SPL, so we placed a small tuning resistor on each driver after testing to determine which was needed, to keep the SPL at a specified level. The new coaxes are black basket and bezel, and require a 2 ohm resistor, placed on each driver. All purchased drivers are ready to install.”
Because the seller powered these 3.7’s with a high current Classe amplifier in use at sale, I’m confident about them so based on Rob’s reply, I chose to have them shipped direct from Vermont to Brentwood, TN where I live. I do know all boxes arrived in perfect shape = no fork lift penetrations etc. Sort of crazy to have all that drool-worthy gear just sitting, but I do like to sail.
I need to do a time offset on a speaker that already has a physical offset. The new ribbon tweeter I thought would be nearly a drop in has its element recessed by a bout a .5 inches. Now it needs to come further forward. So I need to be creative with the added shim shape or bullnose to blend into the poured granite cabinet..Awesome tuneable external resonance control for both woofer and crossover board. Maybe difficult to maintain a good blended look. Thanks again. Tom
I’m not sure about your shim question. I have added shims to both drivers to optimize how the Ultrasuede on 1/8" felt works. Those shims are about 2mm = 1/10" thick. But they are under all drivers, so they don’t change relative driver arrival times. Thiel’s driver arrivals are baked into the design, and they are virtually dead nuts IF your ear height is as designed = 3’ up x 8’ or more distance. If you have access to a step function generator, and you put your mic at your listening ear position, you can see that the arrival times from the drivers superimposes onto an ideal, single curve. Your ear hears that uniform arrival time as clarity, definition, integrity. Some people can hear deviations in the micro-second range. Some seem not to notice full cycle or more deviations of a millisecond or so.
My present 02 project involves converting its stock conventional flat-baffle launch to a geometry where the woofer is brought forward enough for accurate time alignment. The offset required is 36mm because the woofer is rather deep. A final product might hope to use a shallower woofer for less offset and therefore fewer reflection and diffraction artifacts from the stand-off. That 36mm was estimated by reading the arrival time discontinuity, then prototyping and tweaking until the waveforms of the two drivers look like a single trace.
I want to ask you about the shim or shims you added to the driver to aid in alignment. Was there a number such as .125 or .250 shim thickness added singularly or in addition to arrive at your final destination? Is there a minimum fractional distance that the brain can determine as a skewed time offset? Personally I think it is as small as 1/8 of an inch. Thanks for your insights. Tom
Welcome! Good to see you here. I can understand the appeal of B&W 800 series speakers. For a few years, I enjoyed the 805 monitor. Are you looking to build a complete system around the 800 loudspeakers?
Regarding selling your current gear- check out U.S. Audiomart. The fee for selling over there is much less than here or eBay. Something to consider.
As someone who went from the B&W 800 series to Thiel about 10 years ago I will be the first one to tell you that you're making a bad decision. I found the Thiels to be better in every area I cared about. The B&Ws will play louder and have more (lower quality) bass. The Thiels have more defined bass, clearer, more intelligible midrange, less peaky tweeter, better imaging, more realistic soundstage, better transients, and a difficult to describe relaxing quality that may be due to their better phase behavior.
Hello all - newbie here...just discovered this site last week or so and this thread several hours ago! Such passion for Thiels! Real quick cuz it’s 4am and I’m zonking-out I’m the original owner of a pair of black ash 3.6s complimented by a couple of .5s and a definitive sw and PSB center I’ve had since the late 90’s. Perfect condition and I’m looking to sell it or trade for 800 series b&ws. I know there is a place for this somewhere on the site and I plan to do this the right way (!) but I just wanted to send this out to the universe as a sort of place mark. I’m in the Bay Area and would be interested just to find out what it is I have, what the current value is. (I have no idea what I paid initially but none of it was cheap!) It’s used as mostly a home theater setup along with my 1000 watt definitive sw and 200x5 WPc Aragon amp and stageone pre pro which are the main reason for my upgrade dreams. They are great, but not even an hdmi connect! I’ll learn the forum rules and undoubtedly already broke several but as I said, this is just a stab at a bookmark before I forget or can’t navigate my way back! Apologies ahead of time gotta hit the hay! Feel free to contact any way. Yours jjw
Rob G and I spent a month+ last October/November emailing and me calling to sort out the truly messed up CS3.7 that I had bought used. He helped with speaker design diagrams and hand held me on repairs and diagnostics remotely. Along with advice on the tools to buy.
If he was not available and willing to help I would have been stuck with an an expensive damaged speaker with no way to fix. The CS3.7 shipping boxes I had were like paper and no way I wanted to use them to ship them to Rob from California home.
He is difficult to get a hold off but I was doing all of this during the thanksgiving holiday time period.
OK -- just heard back from Rob myself via email. Thoughtful and information-rich as always. What can I say, I'm very happy to know his business is doing so well!
I have emailed Rob. What little I know goes back about a month. He is swamped with repair work and seems to ignore anything that is not directly billable work related. Same story goes for me too.
Speaking of Rob G., I've been trying to contact him for the last two weeks -- daily calls to CSS are answered by a robot that tells me "this mailbox has not been set up." Emails go unanswered. I'm beginning to wonder if something is up.
When I sold your products I remember smooth studs with no threads at one time there was a switch to threads, but when ? May send him a couple different sets. Thanks again. Tom
Tom - My pair has its serial numbers rubbed off, so I don't know if any changes were made later. Mine have the pins I designed for the CS2.2, which is a smooth 1/4" pin with a retention 0-ring seated in a nylon shoulder bushing. That bushing pulls out. I don't remember the bored hole size, but probably 5/16" plain bore.
Hello out there.. I have a out of town friend who has a pair of 3.6s and wants to use a set of Audiopoints with them. He is not able to turn them over to check the thread size..I think they are 1/4-20. Does anyone know for sure. Thanks in advance. Tom
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