Thiel Owners

snbeall - my understanding from insiders is that the Y2K PCS used the coax from 1998's CS2.3, which probably includes its upgrade to double-magnet status in 2001 onward. (Conjecture: incorporating the 2003 CS2.4 coax would have required XO redesign which wasn't deemed necessary.) Managing so many products (20+) in a small company is an art of its own. 

This is my fourth (or fifth?) purchase from TMR. All were very positive experiences. Not only do they attract and screen for good quality pre-owned equipment, but more importantly their packaging has always been top notch. Anyone who has purchased pre-owned knows how important proper packaging and shipping is. And their 14 day home trial is just icing. Not affiliated or anything. Just satisfied customer.

That said, my question seems to have fallen away. Is the coax driver in the PCS the same as in the CS 2.4?

snbeall

Good to read about your positive experience with TMR. This Audio company(re-seller) is really making a name for themselves.

Happy Listening!

@jon_5912.. yes. I got them from TMR. I really didn’t need more either, but I’ve always been curious about the PCS model. Frankly, I fully expected to play and return, but as I wrote, I’m smitten. Computer speakers?! - these things fill my 15,000 cubic ft space! And they are bigger than you might think. They would not fit on a desk. Well…not readily anyway.

jon_5912

there is a bit of magic in the Creek 5350SE.

Happy Listening!

ALL

feel free to talk about Prices on anything Audio related here. There are no restriction(s) regarding this important matter (wholesale, middle man, retail).

Happy Listening!

beetlemania

Thank You for the cost comparison. Those prices are not bad at all.
Very affordable if you ask me. Are you planning any additional upgrade(s) this year? After I establish my cables/cords, we will talk about my SE pair.

Happy Listening!

@jafant I honestly do not have a full accounting of what I spent but I’m pretty sure it was north of $1000. I mean, I replaced everything except the drivers and cabinets. I have Cardas hookup wire and dual Cardas binding posts, fer-cryin-out-loud! Even the coax shunts caps at 100 uF each are a low voltage version of the CSA. My 2.4s are really tricked out. About the only stones left unturned were Path Audio re$i$tor$ and Jupiter copper foil bypa$$ cap$.

I do recall I spent about $100 on the Mills MRAs from Sonic Craft. But that was 3 years ago, so prices are likely higher now. Still, that’s a pretty good deal for upgrade in SQ from the sandcast resistors. I bought some stuff from Parts Connexion and other outlets but a lot of it came via Tom Thiel who was working directly with Clarity. And 6/10 coils came from Rob Gillum who had a stock of Lex-equivalent coils (Erse, maybe Jantzen, rather than FST).

I suspect a judicious DIYer with Lex boards could probably get about 80% of the SQ of my upgrade for, maybe, $500. Mills MRAs throughout, Clarity CSAs on the coax feeds (plus, maybe a single bypass cap - I used Multicaps but am really curious about Audyn True Copper Max or Jupiter in the bypass position), foil type inductors in the feed positions, refresh the 100 uF electrolytics with Jantzen Premium ELKOs. Those of us with FST boards might choose to reach deeper into our wallets, especially if the woofer caps are MKTs. If you have FST boards like I did (MKT caps and loosely wound coils), I suggest replacing everything.

But, remember, I’m insane :)

@snbeall - get those from The Music Room?  I saw some there a few days ago, wanted them, but I just don't need more speakers.  I figure they'd be spectacular as computer speakers hooked up to my 20 year old Creek 5350SE and Cambridge DacMagic.  

snbeall

Good to see you here again.  The new Chrissie Hynde release is on my short-list.  I like your loudspeaker comparisons. This is the only way to decide if a move away from Thiel Audio is warranted? Most will return to a Thiel.

Happy Listening!

Oh, I forgot to mention that what I’m powering the PCS’s with is a lowly Bluesound Powernode 2i. A Hypex based/licensed amp rated at 100W into 4 ohms. Dunno… I’ve been an audiophile for a few decades now. This Hypex amp comes and goes to black. Handles anything thrown at it above 2 ohms. And possibly below. And I can hold it in one hand.

Not a challenge. Or threat. Just an observation. 

beetlemania

Excellent! Thank You for the update. Feel free to post the prices for CSA, Mills and other upgrades caps/resistors for the Panel.  I feel this would be helpful information to those considering changing out XO's.

Happy Listening!

Sorry, but I’m going to take the thread away from CS 2.4’s for a moment (but not too far I believe?)

I just picked up a mint pair of PCS’s and within 3 seconds of firing them up, I realized that they were something special.

I have a USS equivalent (SS-1 with USS amp) that I was never able to manage a satisfactory match with my Powernode 1.2’s on the floor - despite both a PX-02 and PX-05 matched crossover. I have a SCS4 PX-05 that I thought must be a pretty close match to the PCS crossover, so tried it.

Listening to the new Chrissie Hynde album on Tidal MQA (and Billie Eilish before that), I have my mouth agape. Completely new level in comparison to the Powerpoints, as well as all my Monitor Audio, Martin Logan bookshelves, not to mention my beloved Meridian DSP actives.

So now my first question. I’ve always considered the PCS to be miniaturized (more easily shipped) CS2.4’s. Don’t they use the same coax mid/treble driver? The room simply blooms with the sound! And it’s a LARGE space.

That coax driver is really something.

I certainly do not hear a glassy presentation with my Ayre QB-9. But even if the Ayre is guilty of this sonic trait, as you suggest, that is *not* what I heard with the SEs when I first got them. It was a trait not apparent with my Vandersteens or Thiel CS1.6 and it was mostly, if not entirely, cured by replacing the OEM resistors with Mills. And the Tom Thiel crossover upgrade brought the performance up to near SOTA other than in bass performance (no help for that given the 8” driver and passive radiator) and image density. So, what I’m talking about has nothing to do with the source or amp.

2nd Note;
with every DAC/Server piece of gear up to the $20K mark, my ears detect,  that "glassy" presentation and sound in the Midrange register(s).

Happy Listening!

beetlemania

In both SE auditions, I detected, no glassy presentation within the Midrange register. Even though the pairs are quite apart S/N wise, I enjoyed the same presentation and sound quality. A measure sweeter than a stock 2.4 model.
I really must hear your upgraded pair sometime in the future.

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

CSA caps : corrected.

Happy Listening!

I wish Rob could hear my 2.4s. His upgrades can go a whole ‘nuther level, IMO, given that he is probably only replacing the coax feed caps with the SAs.

The SE version also received rave reviews from Enjoy the Music and Ultra Audio. I wonder about the crossovers in the review pair (probably the same pair for both reviews?). Were they Lex or FST. And if FST, with polyester or polypropylene caps? I also wonder if the “glassy” midrange anomaly I heard was because of overheated resistors from a previous owner. I was mostly happy when the SEs arrived in my system but they were not without flaw. @tomthiel the upgraded boards made this one sublime speaker!

Wes Phillips was one of my favorite reviewers. I trusted his ear and he was also an excellent writer.

tomthiel

What kind of cost/price is involved with CC SA caps or SCA caps ?

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

Thank You for the CS 2.4 confirmation. I miss Wes (R.I.P.). His review is one for the ages.

Happy Listening!

Beetle- regarding odd 2.4SE variants. Rob has done lots of customer upgrades from stock to SE xo status, either at his shop or providing parts and supervising. He uses CC SA caps, according to the original design when the SA was CC’s best. The CSA is a league up, but n my opinion.

CS2.4 count update: Rob responded that there were about 2300 pairs of CS2.4s made, of which "only a few at the beginning were with Lex XO boards, before buying completed XOs from FST." That count makes more sense.

However it doesn't answer the quality decline riddle. I have (veiled) insider information that after Jim's death in 2009, and possibly earlier, Kathy cut costs in all the products. It is likely that she authorized the change from propylene to mylar caps and lesser coils. Just speculating on who and when, but we do know the what - some later versions were lower quality than earlier ones.

What I would love to know is whether Wes Philips 1991-1992 pair has Thiel or FST XOs and at what quality level. Reviews don't get much better than that one, and Wes was about as good as reviewers get. I'll see if I can tease an answer to that riddle out of Rob. More later. 

tomthiel

Thank You for the detailed follow up. Very informative information on the CS 2.4, 2.4SE, 2.7 and CS 3.7 models. Keep researching and revealing here.

Happy Listening!

Guys - your input is valid and welcome. I don't claim to have answers, only observations.
Prof - I agree that the numbers seem odd. I go on what I sniff out, including Rob Gillum's input. The 2.7 uptick is due to re-emergent marketing under Steve DeFuria.
Beetle - I think you're on it. I know that early FST boards used ERSE coils, caps and resistors, which were made in China, but to very high standards including a best-of-form Japanese PP film, proper coil wire and winding, etc. Later FST including your SE boards have none of that. So quality was being compromized as time went on.
Robert - That 1500 count was from New Thiel reported to Rob. It may not be true or correct.
Jazzman - thank you for all the references. The review cycle goes like this: first production goes to dealers. Review samples come next which is often a few hundred pieces into the run. Thiel carefully tested and ensured those review samples were best of form. (Let's hold that ethical discussion till later.) It was rare for a product to be re-reviewed after a long time into its cycle and when that did happen, the reviewer would have been given home-brewed units with applicable updates. Of course it would be of great interest to directly compare a late FST product to a Lexington tweaked one - but I don't have that luxury. I have developed an opinion that the Lex versions with higher-grade parts and methods are better products.

Prof - there were many forces at work that limited sales of later Thiel speakers. The story is not easy to stitch together due to loyalties and other factors. My first direct contact in more than 15 years was in September 2012 when the CS2.7 was being finalized. I heard it compared with the CS3.7 in the Thiel listening room. That demonstration and work session was stunning with all elements of the playback chain optimized over a period of 25+ years. Both products were completely Lexington-made, reference prototype quality examples. 

But sales of the 3.7 and other products were very low. The factory was like a ghost town with perhaps 5 people total, mostly working on machines. No speakers were being made. By contrast, when I left in 1995 we had 50 people running a very vertically integrated R&D, production, marketing, sales, service and dealer education program with sales over $6M, 8 new products in the pipeline and sustained 30% annual growth. But things had become very sad by 2012. Many factors play, but not insignificant was that Kathy had taken sales to Crutchfield and then Amazon and alienated the traditional dealer base. Higher priced models were discontinued to simplify the business in hopes of survival for a new buyer. The new buyer emerged at the end of 2012 and the first attempt was to salvage and continue Jim's designs. Steve DeFuria, an early dealer and long-term industry insider was hired as sales manager and managed to re-recruit several strong traditional dealers, accounting for the fairly strong sales of the 2.7 and 1.7 relative to their predecessors. But the new design team changed horses, leaving behind Jim's approach; the reviewers and dealers didn't buy in, and the brand lost its re-emergent industry support. New Thiel poured $10M into their effort to re-brand Thiel as avant-garde lifestyle stuff for affluent young women. It failed.

An example of New Thiel's approach was to position the CS1.7 as a Coherent Source. It was actually a 4th order crossover like myriad other contemporary products. Old Thiel had a first order 1.7 nearly ready for market for early 2013, right after the 2.7 (which is first order) made entirely in Lexington with old-school Thiel components and methods. Part of the reason the 2.7 punches above its class is that the 2.7 has Lex boards and the 3.7 (after about #1100 in 2007) has FST boards. So there are lots of hidden elements in the mix at the end of Jim's life in 2008 and continuing until the demise of Old Thiel in 2013.

Prof - my notes indicate there were about 1000 pair of 3.7s and 1500 pair of 2.7s sold. I'll comment further when I find time.

Wow, somehow that strikes me as surprisingly lower than I expected for the 3.7, and higher for the 2.7.

Tom, your post suggests all SE versions are FST. On the ‘net, I found a pic of an SE crossover that looks Lex-ish (but with the Clarity SAs) and a video of Gary Dayton showing an SE crossover that looks neither Lex or FST. I suppose there are one or two prototype SEs with Lex boards?

I wonder if the quality of the FSTs slipped over the years. Perhaps they started as “Lex equivalent” but downgraded parts quality with time? I imagine all FSTs are on printed circuit boards but perhaps they initially used MKP caps and had better quality coils. The seller of my SEs claimed they were built in 2012, which is credible given the late serial numbers. That is 3 years after JT passed and the year Thiel Audio was sold. Maybe the downgrade in parts quality is restricted to late pairs?
Regardless, the CS2.4 has superb drivers and a quality cabinet. In my experience, a crossover upgrade yields a speaker that is near SOTA other than bass extension and definition. That’s the best you can ask for anywhere near this price level.

1500 pair of 2.7s !  

My speakers are #'s 329 & 330  ,  the prof's pair are around that # 
and so far I haven't read of any serial #'s any higher from 
Thiel owners responding on this thread .

 

Jafant, Tom Thiel, et al.

Thought the following might be interesting.

I purchased my CS 2.4 speakers from Audio Consultants in April of 2011. They were a pre-owned pair (serial# 2951, 2952) and at time of purchase there were 5 years left on the transferable 10 year warranty.

Following are links to five Thiel CS 2.4 reviews (all rave reviews by the way) in more or less chronological order. Where discernable, I’ve listed the serial numbers related to each review.

Soundstage Nov 2003 – Marc Mickelson … Serial Number N/A

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/revequip/thiel_cs24.htm#:~:text=The%20Thiel%20CS2.,all%20the%20while%20the%20CS2.&text=4%20is%20certainly%20one%20of,art%20offering%20(Thiel’s%20own%20CS7.

6 Moons Jan 2004 – John Potis … Serial Numbers 903, 904

https://6moons.com/audioreviews/thiel/2.4.html#:~:text=The%20CS%202.4%20is%20nominally,to%20400%20watts%20are%20recommended.&text=Thiel%20was%20kind%20enough%20to,already%20shipped%20with%20substantial%20spikes.

Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity Jul 2004 – Jon E Johnson, Jr … Serial Numbers 413, 414

https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_3/thiel-cs-24-speakers-7-2003.html

Stereophile Nov 2005 – Wes Phillips … Serial Numbers 1991, 1992

https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/1105thiel/index.html

Audio Perfectionist Journal #13 2005 – Shane Buettner … Serial Number N/A

https://www.vandersteen.com/media/files/APJ%20Files/APJ13_Proof.pdf

(note that review begins on page 19)

Prof - my notes indicate there were about 1000 pair of 3.7s and 1500 pair of 2.7s sold. I'll comment further when I find time.

jon - Thiel kept quiet about their Chinese sourcing. The Home Theater products has FST parts, then entire boards from the mid 1990s. As far as I know, the MCS was always FST boards. 

JA - what I meant to say is that the transition from Lex to FST occurred somewhere around the #225 mark because I heard of a 215-16 Lex pair and a 235-6 FST pair. All the FST parts are made in China, on glass boards with CYC parts. We have previously addressed the particulars;  I consider those FST boards a level down from Lexington boards.

prof

I am thinking that not too many pairs of models CS 2.7 and CS 3.7 were sold. I could be wrong in my estimate? Both arte very fine loudspeakers.

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

Thank You for the Middle Crossing update. I know that you will find another space for your Musical instruments and Audio businesses.
It is refreshing to read that S/N 220-230 possibly have the FST/China XO.
Perhaps my pair side-stepped this issue? 
The CS 2.4 model is a darling/honey of a loudspeaker to my ears.
I can hardly await to see how your updated XO interpretation turns out!

When you you travel to Virginia?

Happy Listening!

I've always been curious how many 2.7s Thiel sold, since that was the last model that came out and it was just before Thiel changed hands and went to a new design.  So I'm imagining not many.
Any idea Tom?

This makes me wonder if a cheap crossover is why I never warmed up to my MCS1.  I bought it off Amazon in 2012 or later during the brief time Thiel was on Amazon.  I love my 2 2s and 3.7s but I never found the MCS1 to be on the same level.  I bought it as a center channel for movies and I don't really watch that many movies so that's part of it.  It could just be that I typically ran it off of an HT receiver but I ran my 2 2s off of one and still found them great.  hmmm.

All - regarding CS2.4 production variants - my data is pretty sketchy. (It helps my puzzle-solving if you guys state your serial numbers if you can.) They ran from 2003 to 2012 when replaced by the 2.7. I have records of only 1000 pair, which interests me greatly. The 2.4 seems to be a bit of a audiophile darling, yet its sales are tied for lowest of any model. The SE may add 100 pair (or be included in the 1000 count.) It seems the progression from Lexington to FST / China is around sn 220 - 230. My personal experience along with other collaborators on this forum suggests that transition may partly account for the low sales volume. Reviewers and early enthusiasts would all have experienced the original Lexington units. The later (post 230) units to my ear lack the finesse, delicacy and ease of the originals. I wonder out loud if that discontinuity amounted to anything in the marketplace. It also seems that offshore sales were accounting for an increasing share of sales and that the USA market may have suffered via other non-product problems. Just guessing.

Rob says that Jim OK'd the FST production. But there are also documented stories of heated disagreements between Jim and Kathy as Marketing Director regarding various issues in that time-frame of the 2.4. Tim Tipton (long-term purchasing manager) ventured that Jim's ear was slipping. Cancer doesn't help bodily system performance.

The bottom line is that there is lots of room for improvement in the CS2.4 and with the considerable work already done on it and its forebearer the CS2.2, I suspect those 2.4 owners may be in for a sonic uplift if they so wish.

cargen - you speculated about using some Thiel PXOs on other subwoofers. Here are my thoughts. Thiel's passive crossover matches the characteristics of the two speakers (sub and main), providing real,engineered rolloff slopes just like the subs were in the full-range speaker. They work very well for that intended use and in the case of the 5-channel PXO5, all the channels are integrated with the low bass. So using PXOs with different drivers with different characteristics than specified by their design would not work well. The magic is that a real crossover is provided because the characteristics of the woofer and main speaker are known and taken into account.

Hi Guys - I'll swing back and answer some loose threads as I find time. Last night I locked the door on my vacated Middle Crossing shop and studio. The building was sold and I closed shop on very short notice, selling 30 tons of wood and some tools and equipment, and storing way too much stuff for further preparation for sale later this summer. Big trip. Looking forward to a simpler life focused around musical instruments and audio. Still a long way to go before the external premises are clear and the excess is sold. Then there's the challenge of finding new space - real estate is extremely thin here in this small, safe, rural New England town where everyone from the city with sufficient means seems to want to relocate. Challenges keep us young, right?

tonywinga

PM sent.   Happy Listening!

shaundevuk

Tom Thiel and beetlemania worked together on upgrading
beetle's 2.4se speakers so you might contact them if you 
are or would be concidering working on your speakers ,
again .

dsper

Nice score! on the V3 DAC. Thank You for the follow up. Like beetlemania, I too, own AYRE Acoustics gear. I can attest to higher quality sources bringing out the loudspeaker's attributes.
Keep me posted as you massage the V3 into your room/system.

Happy Listening!

Happy Friday! All

@beetlemania
IMO, Thiels are generally very transparent...

Some of you may recall my recent posts where I expressed a desire for a more live presence with my Thiel CS5i's. I also thought about beatlemania's post about the transparency of Thiels in general because I was starting to come to the opposite conclusion after having owned 3.6's and now 5i's. It was/is getting to the point of contemplating a change to a more efficient speaker and a tube amp.

My experience with the CS5i's has been that better transports and DACs can provide more detail which gets one closer to better transparency/live presence.

I had been researching DACs in the $5000 range as a possible improvement for quite some time but thought I would try what the $1000 price point was all about. The $899 Soekris was a step in the right direction as I have chronicled in an earlier post.

Anyway, I had been reading about the Mojo Audio Mystique V3 DAC and noticed that they were starting to come up on the used market as folks with deeper pockets than mine have moved on to the new Mystique EVO.

I acquired a V3 earlier this week and am astounded at the improvement I am hearing from the CS5i's. The bass is deeper, the dynamics are better, and soundstage and imaging have improved. I can look at a speaker and "see" an instrument in front of the speaker which has never happened before. I believe I am hearing background noises that I could not hear before. In general the sound is more fleshed out. 

To tie this all together, I think beetlemania may be right about transparency. My caveat would be that the old comment that Thiels require good (probably higher priced) amplification to sound their best also extends to requiring a higher quality source.

Anyway, the move to a more efficient speaker is now on hold for a bit while I listen to the Mystique settle in.

Thanks for listening,

Dsper

shaundevuk

Welcome! to the forum.  Good to see you here.

Happy Listening!

shaundevuk

Thank You for citing your system- very nice gear.
At your particular level, I would not change anything. If, by chance, a pair of CS 2.4SE crosses your radar, consider a loudspeaker upgrade. 
You can expect more aural goodness that the stock CS 2.4 already provides.

Happy Listening!

Hi from the UK...

I have owned by Thiel 2.4s for about 8 years.

System is:
LP12, Ittok, Kore, Cirkus, RigB Audio Technical 150Sa  etc...

Consonance Ref 2.2 CD player

Croft Micro25R pre (Valves)

Musical Fidelity 550K power amps (that have been heavily modified with new PSU, masses of capacitors etc...  All done by John Sampson who was the UK Musical Fidelity Service Manager for years).  They were 500w pc into 8 ohms, 900w into 4 ohms but are way past that now.

All cables from "The Missing Link".  UK based, Mark hand makes truly special cables.
Thiel 2.4 (upgraded to SE spec thanks to Rob)

Question to the forum is where next...  

I love the music my system plays but am always looking for the 'what next'..

Ideas would be really appreciated

Happy Friday! All

beetlemania

Thank You again for the follow up. Very informative information regarding the FST vs. Lexington boards. I will send a PM for further discussion.

Happy Listening!

@jafant I would be very surprised if your late production SEs did not have the FST boards. Early units might have Lexington boards, Rob Gillum might be the only person who knows.

Read the following knowing that I am an insane person:

If you’re going to upgrade FST boards, my advice is pretty much replace everything. Well, on an extreme budget you might just upgrade the resistors to Mills. But the parts quality is disappointing on the FSTs. The Clarity SAs are good but even those are outpaced by the newer CSAs.

For units with Lexington boards, the parts quality is higher (those Clarity coax feed caps are the best OEM coax feeds regardless of standard or SE version, or Lexington or FST). On a budget, you might just upgrade the resistors and feed caps. Standard CS2.4 owners with Lexington boards could have something notably better than the SE version with just those “simple” changes. Even reaching higher, there are several coils and a cap or three that are worth salvaging. My extreme makeover has 3/5 coils and one bypass cap that are equivalent to Lexington. But I retained nothing whatsoever from the FST boards, not even the hookup wire and binding posts.