I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
The Thiel equalizer boosts bass to match the natural roll-off particulars of its model (01, a, b, 03, a, CS3, CS3.5.) It is a single-purpose black box with no signal monitoring or upper frequency shaping. Its front panel should show: ’THIEL electronic bass equalizer plus a green LED. Back panel shows: ’Model CS3 Equalizer with 4 RCA jacks. No controls. Is it possible you don’t have a Thiel CS3 EQ?
There is another problem in that the schematics were lost when Thiel was sold to ’New Thiel’. I am reconstructing and upgrading the EQ, but (at least for the foreseeable future) will be addressing only the CS3.5. Note that a CS3.5 EQ works perfectly well for CS3s. the models share the same bass end. There are about 2000 CS3 and 5000 CS3.5 EQs out in the wild.
The 3.5 is a more sophisticated circuit including direct coupling (no caps in the signal path), dual (double mono) humbucking input transformers, as well as selectable bass extension. It became clear that the 20Hz bass of the CS3 could excite room modes, so Jim added a 20Hz - 40Hz option to minimize such problems.
I recommend finding a CS3.5 EQ, which will be upgradable to Studio or Audiophile performance options as well as fully serviceable in its basic form with updated (higher performance) semiconductors that are presently unavailable.
vair68robert - regarding your wire query - I'll contribute some personal observations. As Thiel's manufacturing director for the first 20 years, then as a purist recordist, and now in my product redevelopment/refinement undertaking, I have perhaps thousands of hours invested in wire assessment and experimentation. That makes me an interested amateur. Having access to aerospace considerations, research and solutions, and a longtime working relationship with Straightwire, I feel OK about commenting.
I had listed some rules from that accumulated experience. This geometry falls emphatically outside those rules. But its proponents have good cred, and their experience should not be minimized. They may have discovered a new way through the weeds of wire. The biggest question-mark for me is the extreme difference between positive and common conductors. Note that our audio signal is an alternating current application. Granted there are differences between signal + and common -, but nothing like DC which presents a clear one-way functional path. The Duelund Helix uses the common - conductor as a shield, which raises multiple technical issues for me as does the radically different conductor lengths and radiating field management between the pair.
Life does not afford the opportunities to run down every interesting approach. I'm not rejecting the possible efficacy of this wire, but it presents enough barriers of entry to keep it in my background - awaiting further input. Anybody heard or used it?
@Thieliste, Same here, long wall. I personally prefer long wall placement. I find imaging and bass response often improves with such a layout. But again, absorption directly behind the listener is required to avoid comb filtering. Even if it's just a temporary item used only during listening sessions. Also, pulling the speakers well out (>3') from the wall behind them will help with clarity.
If using spikes, I suggest removing them while experimenting. Replace them when ideal positioning is established.
9' could be ideal, but don't be afraid to try wider. Especially with such available space from side walls. Just a slight tick of just a couple of degrees of toe in could easily compensate for the foreshortened distance of listener from loudspeakers. It might really open up the soundstage. Keep in mind the center of the woofer's relationships to the various boundaries. Experiment! Test recordings can speed up the process.
if I recall that is what Tom said this is the spacing he used for testing his mods .
2.7 manual is 8ft apart and 8 to 10ft to listener , min 3 feet speaker center from side walls and 2 1/2 from front wall to rear of cabinet
toe in should be used only if you can't meet the min. to side wall spacing ,
I can't be 10 feet from the speakers , so I used the triangle formula of 8 x 10 x 10 this gave me an angle of just less than 48 degrees to the listener , my speakers are 84 inches apart and 104 inches to listening position , 37 inches to side walls and only 28.5 to the front wall .
So if you can sit further than 10 feet from the speakers you can experiment with moving the speakers more than 8 feet apart keeping the same angle to the listener
^Thiel measured their speakers from a distance of 3 meters (approximately 10’), and a minimum of 8’ is required for driver integration and time alignment, aimed straight ahead. If I recall correctly, the 3 meter distance would have a convergence of 22 degrees behind the listener. As space allowed, close to an equilateral triangle for placement was recommended. So, in a room with available side wall space (at least 3’ and preferably 5’ or more) closer to 10’ apart center to center. As you have more than 5’ to side walls, closer to 10’ might work and provide for a bigger soundstage. The distance to listener is another variable to consider. If placed 10’ apart (center to center) and you have less than 10’ between listener and speaker, a bit of toe in might be needed. Toe in can be tricky, just a little bit goes a long way. Too much toe in, and you can shrink soundstage and perhaps even worse, introduce brightness. Another consideration would be the distance of woofer centers to front, rear and sidewalls, and though obviously less controllable, floor and ceiling. The ratios of which can be important for smoothing bass frequency. Simply put; it might be best not to have even multiples or divisibles of any of those distances.
FWIW, as I set up my Thiels, my room affords similar wide space between speakers and sidewalls, but regrettably doesn’t offer quite the ideal distance of listener to speaker. So, I set up mine 10’ apart (center to center), 7.5’ from center to sidewalls, cabinet backs 3’ from nearest wall, and a speaker to listener distance of 8.5’. with 2.5 degrees of toe in. If your room is similar to mine in that the back wall is close to the listener, I can’t emphasize how important some absorptive room treatment behind the listener can be!
Every room is different. Use the figures as a starting point and customize as necessary.
Hi guys, just a quick question regarding positioning.
How far apart were you able to set your Thiels from tweeter to tweeter without having a hole in the soundstage ?
Is it 9 or 10 feet or more ?
I have my 3.7s 8 feet apart as recommended in the owner's manual and pointing straight ahead as i have a lot of room from the side walls around 6-7 feet.
What's the best way to contact Rob Gillum? I have a pair of Thiel CS 2.2 in need of a little TLC. I bought them new ~'93 and I've always liked them. I still have the original boxes! I sent a message through the website a couple of days ago but haven't heard a response. If he's still working out of Lexington I could just drive up and drop them off, I'm only a few hours away.
First post! I have been following this forum for a couple of weeks and have been fascinated and overwhelmed with all of the information. I have a pair of 2.4's and 2.2's and have already emailed Rob Gillum about the 2.4 upgrades. This is exciting stuff.
I was happy to hear that @thieliste 's speaker shootout declared the Cardas Clear Beyond speaker cables the winner being an owner of Cardas cabling . But for most the cost puts this out of reach for an average guy . While I tried and didn't succeed in using Cardas 9.5 awg ( the same used in the CCB ) in different configurations , parallel single runs , twisted and used as the negative with Cardas Neutral Reference used as the positive , I'm still always interested in speaker cable designs . The Cardas web site shows the Clear Beyond as a quad star but describes it as an octo star ? But at least they give you more information about cable designs and specs than most other manufactures .
Well you don't need a degree in physics to determine a 600 wat amp will fill a room easier than a 200 watt amp with siliar amp output to fill a 21,000 cubic foot room
^Interesting. For $55K the Humboldt's specs don't impress, especially for a load like the Thiel CS 3.7's. The Humboldt is rated for 320 Watts into 8 Ohms / doesn't come close to doubling down with 460 Watts into 4 Ohms and is not spec'd into 2 Ohms at all. The less than half the price Diablo on the other hand is rated for 300 into 8 Ohms doubles down to a greater and more linear response of 600 Watts into 4 Ohms (the CS 3.7's actual nominal load) and 950 into 2 Ohms. With the CS 3.7's 4 Ohm nominal / measured 2.4 Ohm minimum load and recommended power of 100 - 600 Watts (into an 8 Ohm load, with the understanding that the amp could double down as necessary) the Diablo appears to be better suited. For much less than $55K one could easily find separates with more apparent appropriate specs.
I have cs 2.4 speakers I bought 15 years ago and mated with an old integrated amp. They always sounded just ok and i stopped listening 10 years ago. I just picked up a new pass labs int 60 with an acoustic zen Krakatoa and level 4 synergistic research speaker cables. Finally, I have equipment that allows the real sound of these wonderful speakers to be heard.
I know because I have a slight difference in openness between the two: and Rob Gillum told me that this is either due to some electronic problem (which sparked me to do the upgrade in stead of selling the speakers (I had them on eBay for a day or the, before deciding against getting rid of them..).. I have received my Fluke measuring device yesterday and have still to see if both sisters have the same values), or this may be due to a difference in the amount of FF in the tweeters....
If it's electronics, the problem is solvable. If it's the amount of FF there is nothing to be done...
I just got a great deal on a pair of CS3's. Just 3's no dot anything. They sound great. I found out that they originally came with a bass equalizer. I bought one "working perfectly" on ebay, but, it is problematic, scratchy. I brought it to a shop recommended by my speaker repair place.
I mentioned to the tech that I believed it was only used to boost the bass of the 8 inch woofers, but, he led me to believe that it did more than that, almost like it was constantly monitoring the signal and adjusting it accordingly.
Sounds to me rather impressive for a "black box" .... any info on this?
I had lunch this week with a friend of mine who lost his home in the Marshall fire in Colorado. It didn't occur to me until we talked that, among his losses, were his Thiel 2 2's. Sad day.
The CS2 is the Dynaudio D28AF or later D28/2 which are Ferro-Fluid units.
The CS2.4 coax (I've been told, but not certain) is also F-F
Note there are many different formulae of F-F and only the correct one will keep the original parameters intact. Note also that a specific amount must be used.Too much will roll off the high end and too little doesn't give enough heat protection.
Arvin - congratulations. The KEF Blade 2 is a magnificent piece of design and engineering. It does a whole lot right and I hope you enjoy them thoroughly.
Of course, it doesn't address time or phase, so I trust that you have figured that in your equation. Some Thiel fans get hooked on the coherence stuff and 'don't know what they've lost till it's gone'. (a la Joni Mitchell)
I know it’s been a while since I last posted/contributed, but I have certainly kept up by lurking in the shadows.
It is with some regret that I will no longer be a Thiel owner as of tomorrow. Earlier this afternoon, after a couple of months of toying around with the idea of replacing my Thiel 3.5’s, I was presented with an opportunity that I couldn’t pass up and bought a new pair of Kef Blade 2’s. I find it fitting that I’m moving on from a speaker that was among the references of its day, to one that has been universally acclaimed as a reference performer, with state-of-the-art design and engineering of today.
I want to say Thank You to jafant, Tom Thiel, unsound…all of you. I learned so much and truly enjoyed all the interaction. This thread remains such a shining example of what a forum should be about…and it’s all because of the posters here.
I will continue to lurk, continue to stay notified of new posts, etc. I may no longer own Thiels (for now), but I still want to be associated with fine, fellow audiophiles like all of you.
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