Thiel Owners

Happy Friday! All

thieliste

A Cable shoot -out is certainly welcomed here.

Happy Listening!

sdl4

A Cable shoot-out is certainly welcomed here.

Happy Listening!

thieliste,

I'd love to see a shootout between Cardas CR and CB cables! There's a significant price difference between those cables, and I'm sure there would be some interesting sound differences as well.

@sdl4  Thanks i red the Steve Huff review, very interesting.

Seems that the CR are the more engaging and organic sounding Cardas cables of the lineup.

Would be interesting to make a shootout between the CR and the Clear Beyond.

thieliste,

I agree that Cardas cables are a great match for Thiel speakers. I have tried out a lot of interconnects over the past year, but keep returning to Cardas Clear Reflection XLRs for my Thiel 2.2s. These ICs are so smooth and rich sounding while maintaining the imaging and transparency that Cardas cables in the Clear series are known for. If you haven't seen it already, there is a long, glowing review of the CR cables on the Steve Huff Photo website from August.

I've never heard the Clear Beyond cables, and I'd expect them to be great, but the CR cables are still the favorite cables of Angela Cardas, who can use any cables she wants in the Cardas line.

2nd Note

The CS 3.7 loudspeaker does indeed require a large room to breathe and open in presentation and sound.

Happy Listening!

thieliste

Thank You for the update. Nice placement on the CS 3.7 in your living room.

Happy Listening!

Now that i moved in  my new home i have a bigger living room and therefore was able to place my 3.7s in the ideal position recommended by Thiel : 3 feet from the front wall, 8 feet from tweeter to tweeter and i'm sitting 8-9 feet from the speakers.

Speakers are pointing straight ahead, this makes a big difference for best imaging.

What made the biggest difference in my new home is having 6 feet between the speakers and the side walls.

3.7s really need space to breath and get the best out of them.

In january i'm going to demo a couple of different IC and SC and one them are the Cardas Clear Beyond.

Cardas being usually a good match for Thiel speakers.

@tonywinga  , cool trick on raising the fronts!  Haven't heard of that before.  I try not to accept what I hear in auditions as the final word on their sound obviously, so I'll be sure play around with positioning like you suggested once I get them in my hot little hands.  

I hope to be able to have some updates in the coming few days for everyone, I'll be sure to let you know my impressions once I have things setup in my house.  

@coop_301 

Assuming the CS6 speakers are level to start, raise the front of the speakers 1/8 to 1/4 inch higher than the back of the speakers and see what that does for you regarding the sibilance.  You might also need to adjust toe in.  Beyond that it might be the electronics.  Let me know.

PS.  If you all want to hear what your Thiels can do, try these Albums titled Closer to the Music Vol's 1-5 just released on Qobuz.  I'm just now on Vol 2.  Captivating!

coop_301

My pleasure to be of service. You are well on your Audio way.

Happy Listening!

@pops  @unsound  , 

Thanks so much guys for the honest opinions, I really appreciate the insight that I'd have nowhere else to get this from. 

For the speakers- don't tempt me pops, my house is already beginning to swell with audio gear as it is! Great distinctions there. 

Regarding the amps, appreciate the info on the KAV, it sounded quite good to me and never got warm, but I see what you mean now about it being geared towards the AV crowd, I still think it is a useful piece to hang on to for the time being.  But if the sound difference was due in part to the amps, I can see how the ML gets the nod.  

Oh and Jafant, audio journey is a great description, such a good rabbit hole!  Thanks all.

@unsound thanks for the compliment!  I feel the same - and I also agree with your well written and insightful post.  Makes perfect sense to me regarding the difference between the ML and Krell KAV.

@coop_301 I own both the CS6 and the 3.6, love both speakers.  The 3.6 is my favorite speaker, it just has a see through transparency and utter disappearing act the CS6 can’t quite reach.  The 6 will play louder but the 3.6 plays plenty loud in my room and my primary genre is classic rock.  Even though bass on the  6 is more abundant on a large scale I prefer the 3.6’s punchiness and transparency.  I switch them in and out but the 3.6 seems to stay in the longest. 

I

Personal tastes, rooms and upstream components all make choices subjective to a degree.  As my friend unsound says IMHO, YMMV.

@coop_301 , Please indulge me as I offer some thoughts. IMHO, the CS 6's play with greater ease and with greater dynamic range than the CS 3.6's, at a very premium price difference (at least when new). If you have a rather large room or intend to play your music very loud the CS 6's might be a better choice, otherwise the better value could be the CS 3.6's. A contributor that I've long come to respect here on Audiogon @pops has extensive experience with both, hopefully he'll add his thoughts.

 As for the Krell KAV 1500, it's really a bridgeable 5 channel amp. The Krell KAV series was introduced to cater to the then growing Home Theatre market. They are biased more into Class AB, don't have the low impedance prowess of the built for audio biased into Class A and capable of doubling down with impedances of some of their more audio centric models. The KAV 1500's 5 channels can be bridged, but that's not something that I would consider with these Thiel models and their rather low impedance loads. Not all Krells fit the stereotypical (ha!) model that comes to mind when one hears the name Krell. I'm not at all surprised that you preferred the CS 6's driven by the ML 23.5. I say this despite more often than not preferring the house sound of many Krells to Mark Levinson's.

When I was much younger, I believed that the most important component were the speakers and therefore most of one's budget should be spent there. I still believe that speakers are the most important component (after budget and room) but no longer necessarily believe that that should dictate budget. The used market has changed that. Market value and intrinsic value do not always run parallel. Speakers and amps are more dependent on compatibility than most components and this is especially true for these and many other Thiel models. Unless one intends to upgrade in the very near future, and caution must be used in that case, the combinations results can be more important than the individual prowess. 

As always, the above is IMHO, YMMV!

coop_301

Thank You for sharing your aural experience. Have fun on your Audio journey.

Happy Listening!

Hi all, hope everyone had a great holiday!  I'm already ready for the next 3 day weekend.   I was able to listen to two different setups this weekend, thought I'd share my impressions- the first were the CS6 with the ML23.5, and the second a pair of CS3.6 with a Krell KAV-1500.  Very interesting to hear both in the same weekend! 

While both were similar sounding and obviously in the same family, I felt the 6s just had that extra bit of naturalness  to them over the 3.6.  There was a SLIGHT veil sound behind the 3.6 that I don't remember there being with the 6s, almost like a high end set of JBL, but with more Thiel characteristics if that makes sense.  I did notice a little more sibilance on the 6s however in a track I use to test that.. 

Not sure if the difference was in the amp choices, the concrete baffling in the 6s, or something else because the driver array seems pretty darn similar to me.  Maybe my mind is just playing tricks on me, tough to say with so many variables and time in between listenings.   Still on the fence myself because of finances, although the KAV has been offered to me at a discount so I intend to buy that regardless.  Have a great night!

I hope everyone's day was filled with Family, Friends and Good Music.

Happy Listening!

Merry Christmas! ALL

Season 's Greetings - All

Christmas Eve - All

Happy Friday! All

I like the idea unsound, having peace of mind is big for when I'm stretching my budget like in this situation, thanks.

@coop_301 , Another consideration is to purchase an amp on the condition that it passes an authorized tech inspection. In which case you might avoid some risk, could get the amp properly updated, and as such eventually save money on at least one delivery trip expense.

@unsound , thanks for the advice, I think it's a great point especially with something like a ML that I read are labor intensive to work on.  I couldn't make it tonight to check them out but hopefully get out there this weekend.  Appreciate the words of caution.

@coop_301 , Something to consider; some of these amps are getting up there in age, and might be due for a recapping and perhaps re-biasing. The cost of which may not be inexpensive, especially when considering the weight and corresponding shipping costs. Occasionally one might find one for sale with documentation that this had recently been done by the factory or an approved tech. Be careful of unapproved workmanship. If you can find an appropriately updated amp, you might find a killer value.

Thanks guys for all the help here.  I'm going over tonight for one last listen, and if I like what I hear think I'll pull the trigger, probably for the speakers and amp.  I'm confident having talked with Rob about the driver issue and how to resolve it, and the amp I know pairs well and is in working order, plus with its iconic status I think that won't hurt any resale prospects either.  Will let you know how it all goes!

@coop_301 , Just to clarify; that with the Thiel’s sonically I’d much prefer the ML to the Crown or Eagle, and many others too. Which is not to say those amps might not be preferable with other speakers. The Eagle would be a great match with more reticent speakers (Vandersteen’s come to mind), or if one needed very high volume levels in a large space; the Crown could be just the ticket.

i can’t speak to the BAT amps I will say that at one of my preferred dealers who had the then entire lineup on display; when just approaching the volume controls on each and every pre, a rush of static ran through the speakers connected to their respective specific set ups. I immediately lost interest in the brand.

@coop_301 

Did you see the Eagle 7a amp for sale on E-Bay ?

The spec's are fantastic and perfect for Thiel's .

Made me think of a new/different amp . 

Driving 3.7s with monoblocks? "This is the way."

I am quite familiar with the family of Audionet integrated and power amplifiers. I do think it can drive your 3.7s with ease and headroom. I think you can be assured of this.

Hi guys, i'm starting to look at separates for my future upgrade to drive my 3.7s.

One option i have in mind is pairing an Aries Cerat preamp with the Audionet Max monoblocs.

I'm pretty sure this combo would sound fantastic but would like to be sure the Audionet monos can drive my 3.7s with authority.

They are rated 1100W into 2 ohms.

tomthiel

Thank You for confirming those ML 23.5 and 27.5 Power amps.

Happy Listening!

Thanks guys, I was hesitant about the ML because I read they're difficult to work on, which I figure would translate to high maintenance costs/difficulty finding a shop.  I'm going to ask Bill about that tomorrow to see if he works on them.   

I considered going with a Crown, it's obviously much cheaper and meant to work at those ohms.  The eagle is also quite reasonably priced too and the seller takes returns, so that's attractive as well.

Any thoughts on pre amps?  Is having an expensive (to me) power amp a waste if I don't get an equally capable (read pricey) pre amp?  Or can I be less fussy about a pre, so long as the basic voltage gain reqs are there?  I don't think the seller is interested in selling his Theta along with the ML. That theta is also huge, probably bigger than the ML!

coop_301

Another thing to consider is actual amplifier size and weight.

I sold my BAT VK-500 because it was huge and weighed like 120lbs….and there was something too big about the sound and a bit rough on sibilance. 
 

I could easily manage that amp weight wise 5 years ago…but now it’s getting difficult. 
 

The Eagle 2 is very manageable physically. The only amp easier that Ive handled is the ZH-270. 
 

Also if you are just trying things out try the Crown XLS1500 or the Europower EP1500.

The Levinson's are certainly up to the task of delivering on the Thiel's, but Harmon hasn't exactly built the best reputation for customer support, especially for the legacy models. FWIW, personally I prefer some of the vintage Krell's, Threshold's, etc...YMMV.

Thanks for the insight guys, I was actually leaning towards the BAK VT500 but two votes in the ML camp says something right there.  Any tips on how to tell its condition other than the fins being black (which they are)?  Seems to work just fine from what I can tell and of course I have no complaints on the sound.  

coop - FWIW, Thiel owned and used the ML 23.5 / 27.5 extensively in the day. Many dealers successfully sold that ML / Thiel combination. It's a good match.

coop_301

Thank You for the follow up to my query. I believe, that ML 23.5 and 27.5 are classic Power amps to own. There could be other ML models from that era?

Good to read that Rob at CSS was helpful to your situation. Keep me posted .

Have fun!

Happy Listening!

Sorry late response, seems I'm not getting notifications on the thread:/ 

Thanks guys for the info, great advice here!  So the system was a Theta Casablanca ii going via balanced cables into the ML23.5.  From there, I can't recall anything special about the cables though they seemed thicker than my bare 12awg I have, nothing crazy though.  For testing, I brought an ipad and went from the headphone out to RCA of the Theta, max volume on the ipad.  This setup was how I was able to repeatedly hear the buzzing from bass notes. I then brought a separate setup to try and isolate the issue, SMSL SU-8 to XTZ A2-300 with a direct usb connection from the ipad, same issue. 

I spoke with Rob (nice guy!) and he told me to pull the tweeter to eliminate that, and the problem could still be heard but stopped when I put my finger gently on the surround of the midrange.  I noticed the cone was a little loose.  Rob feels it's the midrange in need of a rebuild, though also suggested rotating the driver as well. 

I'll reach out to Bill tomorrow, he's very close to me and I should've thought about him.  Can I swap the midrange drivers easily to ensure that the problem is isolated to the driver?  

Regarding amp choices,  I'm open to the 23.5 as I know it's already a good match.  I see skyfi has a BAT VK500 right now for roughly the same price as the 23.5 as well.  I would welcome any advice on how to find a good pre amp to pair with either.  There's an Eagle 2 on ebay for 700, wow that's a lot cheaper than the other two.  It's tricky for a noob like myself to have an intuitive sense of what amps work with such power hungry, low sensitivity speakers.  Compared to amps, buying speakers seems easy!

brettmcee

I enjoy AYRE AX-5 Integrated amp.  I concur, Cabling is key.

Happy Listening!

I don’t own all of these currently, just amps I have listened to in my system.

The Ampzillas are in my system now. Once I get the right cabling for them, I think they are my final amp. 

What amps are you all using with your Thiels? 

Winter Solstice

brettmcee

Thank You for the follow up on pricing per Rob at CSS. That is quite an extensive Power Amp list.  Which one is in your current system ?

Happy Listening!

If I recall Rob quoted me roughly $500 a driver repair wise.

Amps I have used with my CS6’s are:

1)Ampzilla 2000 mono blocks—very textured, excellent full frequency response, a touch hard on sibilance, these are my main amps

2) Yamaha P2250 mono blocked—pretty much the perfect amp for me thus far. Yamahas are excellent at getting all the bass out of these speakers and are just plain honest truth amps. Fans are a drawback.

3) David Berning ZH270–another near perfect amplifier, but struggles on power with the CS6’s

4) Carver Signature Sunfire 600–a great all-around amp. Doesn’t control low end well enough, but does give a nice presentation.

5) BAT VK-500–this amp gives a larger image, controls the speakers top to bottom, similar to the Carver but more control, more texture and darker darks.

6) Electron Kinetics Eagle 2–just a darn good amp. Can feel a touch ‘thin’ but it’s very fast, transparent and works great with Thiel but can be too much of a good thing with the Thiels.

coop_301

Another option on the East coast. Bill Thalmann in Virginia may be of help as well.

Happy Listening!

coop_301

do you recall the rest of the seller's system? Specifically, any pre-amp? Cables?

Is the source feeding directly into the ML power amp?

Regarding those classic amps, a tune up will do wonders for performance. Much information can be found and read across other Audio forums. Trust your ears.

Happy Listening!

jafant , brettmcee

Thanks very much for the feedback! I've only recently gotten more serious about hifi so have picked up a few rigs over the past few months, and I would consider the CS6 to be better than most speakers I've heard recently.  I'm hopeful that Rob can offer some good advice this week and help guide my decision, because I don't imagine there will be too many CS6s local to me.  The seller's requesting 2500 which seems reasonable, but not if the repair will be another 500.  I potentially have some 3.6 to audition this weekend as well, but I'm still more excited about the 6 to be honest. 

Regarding the amp, I'm on the east coast. I'd be curious to hear people's take on pairing modern amps compared to the 23.5.  In this case, it hasn't had any work done to it but looks in good shape at least.  I see amps pop up on CL that look good on paper and cost less, how do you know when you've found a solid pairing for your speakers?  I like how classic the amp is and the speakers sounded great with it, but he wants 2500 for that also, and it sounds like a tuneup would be quite pricey.  

Thanks again for the perspectives, glad to have found the thread!

brettmcee

Thank You for citing your C6 experience. Is the $2500 a quote from Rob at CSS ?

Happy Listening!