Rob - take care when considering inductor gauge change. Although there may be no actual / functional differences, the fact remains that the coil resistance (as designed) is an integral part of the circuitry. Your change will change the circuit dynamics, and since Jim tuned those dynamics to a nub, I suspect you will not improve them. In fact, the differences may be small enough not to matter. But then consider what value are you getting? Note also that Thiel (ERSE - special) coil wire quality might be impossible to replicate in today's supply chain.
A real potential advantage is going from wire to foil, which acts more like a perfect inductor. In that case the Effective Series Resistance is quite different and may have even more impact on the circuit dynamics. In such case, you can re-establish the proper value / performance be inserting a series resistor after the coil, but its thermal dissipation will be considerably worse than the coil.
You might consider re-mounting the existing coil on stand-offs for more effective and even thermal dissipation than standard Thiel glue-down. That's where I have landed in my explorations. Just sharing a perspective.
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Tom D.
Wow , I'll say it again Wow , you are an amazing DIY'er .
There are some who don't believe that a fuse can make a difference , or a power cord or an outlet let alone going back to the breaker panel .
I've looked into Solen inductors but like the ERSE perfect lay they are to large of a diameter to use unless they are used standing on edge , I hesitate mixing inductor styles and manufactures . I'm still concidering increasing the guage of the 2 inductors on the woofer board . Rob
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tomthiel
Have you considered a Number (run) for your finished Speaker? Double or Triple digits in total? I hope that you find a space to continue Hot Rod garage.
Happy Listening!
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An excellent discussion and exchange of Bolt/Screw ideas - Guys. Keep up the very fine work. Have fun!
Happy Listening!
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I have replaced all the steel fasteners in my system with brass including the circuit board standoffs and mounting screws and transformer lock down bolts, nuts and washers. This is a practice I have applied since the late 80's. thru to this day even on my new speaker build. The brass has a much lower shear velocity than steel and causes less interfering energy to the flow of electromagnetic waves. The tiny metric screws that hold the tweeter dome element to its mounting plate should also be replaced as those are closest to the moving coil and will create much interfering energy. I have not used a Derlin replacement, but that material is of very low shear as well.
This may sound shocking, but I removed the door and the mounting cover of the breaker box that is conveniently located in my audio room. With 2 friends who have listened to my system multiple times. I was able to do a quick A/B . The difference was easily apparent each time,.the steel cover was removed and replaced.
The steel is interfering with the electromagnetic field of the moving coils which varies from driver size to driver size and then to the greatest area of field disturbance the source of where it all starts the... breaker box. It would be great to replace the deep well section of the breaker box but that would need to be a custom piece of brass to bend.
I am onto to methods to maintain and enhance laminar flow with my new devices. Anywhere you put them in the music field you can retrace an individual event. It is never etched just more focused within more air. These are passive but can be further enhanced with an active device.
One other thing my new crossovers are external, and wire tied to a solid poplar board. I used some of the left-over wool felt lining of the cabinet walls to place under the inductors, thought that made sense to do.. But it was restrictive to both the bass and treble section...unstrapped them and out came the soundstage and dynamics. The engineers at Solen thought no way. I used 8gauge 49 strand Litz inductors that I then had double cryoed and dipped in an organic paint no foreign metals. These inductors have a linear inductive value to nearly 35k. Solen said their best competition was good to about 10k..These would be the best choice for at least the tweeter section...I never heard the term Linear Inductive Value before. All a part of those most important electromagnetic waves. Keep those waves linear undisturbed and focused. Tom D
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Tom
It looks like another screw job by the New Thiel Audio ,
the screws/bolts were black steel on mine !
I still got a bargain and the only way I could afford the new ( repaired ? ) 2.7s but I never expected different wire, inductors and now screws .
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Robert - there are many details that are weighed in cost / benefit analyses relative to a company's market niche. Jim was the decider of what was worth what. I can't say for certain, but I suspect that those gold-plated bolts/screws on late Thiels are probably non-magnetic.
I had floated an idea (so of course I thought it had merit) to trick out a special line of each model with all these traded-off sonic upgrades and let the customers choose whether they were worth the cost.
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Thank You Tom T. & Tom D.
The fasteners/screws/bolts that held the speakers and radiator were made with ferrous metal those used on the speaker binding plate were not . I wonder why after your finding in 1978 that ferrous metal screws were still used ?
I hadn't thought of using nylon or delrin so looking into it I found that McMaster-Carr carries the reinforced nylon screws with the same size socket heads as the originals . part # 91221A445 1/2 inch for pk of 10 $8.64 and part # 91221A460 1 inch for pk of 10 $8.73 , so for about $45 you can have an easy upgrade !
The music sounds cleaner , I thought about how to discribe the improvement smoother or more definition but cleaner sounds good . It really showed when playing Dvorak " From the New World " symphony # 5 .
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My redevelopment exploration over the past few years has identified this metallic source of interference. My experiments point to disruption of electromagnetic fields to create eddy currents that react against the orderly flow of energy.
In the 1978 development of the 03 (first coherent source) we discovered and substantiated such effects in steel driver baskets - independent of stiffness, ringing, etc. The electromagnetic eddy currents hang in time and cause subtle phase/time domain distortions. Solution: non-magnetic baskets. However, even non-magnetic conductors introduce electrical reactance when close enough to each other. Solution is non-conductive structures, both electric and magnetic. I don’t have test apparatus to prove such findings, but I understand them to be operative.
A new woofer I am working on will have a non-metallic basket. And my screws / bolts are reinforced nylon or Delrin. The improvement over brass/stainless steel is real, as is the improvement of brass /ss over conductive steel.
Such improvements are small, but additive - stack up several such small, subtle improvements, and the music sounds cleaner. I don’t know whether it matters that Dr. Toole might want more proof. I do know that we take extensive precautions against various bias traps.
You can play with hardware store supplies.
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And there was a positive sonic benefit correct? The sonics will also benefit with the removal of any steel screw to a brass replacement. Any fastener holding or near the crossover or binding posts should be brass. Non ferrous materials sound better. Brass is the metal of music and I think sounds best.Tom D.
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A while back Tom suggested trying to using brass fasteners .
I found the size for my 2.7 speakers to be 8/32 by 1/2 inch for the coaxial and by 1 inch for the woofer and radiator . The pan head srews fit perfectly in the woofer and radiator but were a little to large in diameter ( .6mm ) to fit into the coaxial .
After spending a lot of time looking for a 8/32 with a smaller head and being unsuccessful I had to grind down the head of the panhead screw .
For about $12 It was worth the effort .
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I contacted Rob a few weeks ago through his website. He responded quickly, using that email address. It's quite possible that by emailing him directly your email may have been caught in his spam filter.
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silvanik
as above, contact Mr. Rob Gillum on his contact page via CSS site. Then, inform about attempting contact via rob@coherentsourceservice.com
He may/may not be aware that Rob email address is not operational?
Happy Listening!
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silvanik
Send Rob a note from the contact page of his website, that should get you a response. I’ve never waited more than a day to have a question answered or any other service.
https://www.coherentsourceservice.com/contact/
Ciao, Brett
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Hello fellow Thiel lover,
can I check with you whether the Rob Gillum email address I have is still valid? This one: rob@coherentsourceservice.com, because it's long time I try to get in touch with him unsuccessfully.
Thanks everyone for any help.
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I get the seller does not want to ship as I said the same thing last week in this thread about a rare pair of 2.7 in white I did not want to ship.
I'm in manufacturing and the condition of freight. if the freight arrives without being lost, is be too be desired. We have 43.7% of our shipped material in claims.
We were at 4.76%.
With trucking bogged down which effects shipping the game has changed for sure.
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@thieliste if he will deliver 1,000 miles I will add them to my collection of Thiels, LOL! I completely understand why he doesn't want to ship them....
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A nice pair of 3.7s is up for sale on Audiogon, looks like Amberwood finish.
Who's going to pick them up ?
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Nice pickup @bnut311 I just bought a pair of 3.6 speakers about a week ago.
Quick update on my experience so far. I was a bit surprised at the amount of bass they produced. I have a distributed bass array system consisting of 4 subwoofers. My intuition was to dial down the volume a bit on the subs and also lower the crossover point to around 30hz.
After doing so and listening for a couple of days, they seemed "bright" at higher volumes. I tried moving my listening position back a bit and that helped, but then imaging and soundstage suffered. I decided to try raising the crossover point of the subs back up to 80hz and voila, that seemed to tame almost all of the brightness and really enhanced the soundstage and sense of propulsion of the music and brought back that visceral sense of "being there". I'm pretty happy with how they sound now.
I think I still have some work to do to get the most from them. I am currently powering them with Herron Audio M1 amps which are 150/270 watts @ 8/4. These amps do have very large toroidal transformers. I'm currently using about 20 bucks of 16 gauge Duelund unterminated speaker cable. I have some nice 11 GA Analysis Plus speaker cables on order and am considering different amps.
A couple of amps I'm considering are Parasound JC1 (not +) and Simaudio M400. I'd appreciate any experience with either of those combinations.
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bnut311
Welcome! Good to see you here. Reading through this thread, you will discover, that the 3.6 is a very popular loudspeaker among the Panel. I look forward in learning more about your Musical tastes and system.
Happy Listening!
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Just picked up a pair of 3.6 in Amberwood. I'm powering them with a pair of Clayton Audio M200's. Great sound.
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wise words @roxy54 and my hope is Tom gains traction for his dreams :-)
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It's a very sad story, but I think I'd prefer to turn it around the other way and celebrate thee many successes Jim achieved during his career, and the many people who are still enjoying his creations. Thanks for that information Jim.
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Prof - check.
Roxy - I have pasted together a fairly valid narrative, albeit with large vaguenesses and some holes. Some of the story is recounted in Ted Green’s Strata-gee.com interview with me from around 2018; we’ve also covered some in these 220 pages. A full reckoning would take pages, so here are some highlights.
For lots of reasons, Thiel Audio had been slipping for several years. Jim had kept his cancer secret for 5 or so years, but it affected everything. It’s amazing that he produced such magnificent late work while fighting his terminal illness.
Jim died in September 2009, about a year after introducing the breakthrough CS3.7. He had also developed much of the CS1.7 with a star-plane woofer like the 3.7. But the 1.6 was still young in its life cycle, and he went working on an upgraded CS7.3 coax. I’ve been told (but don’t really know) that driver took the 2.4 passive coupling to a higher plane. Let’s say there was strong work in the pipeline and he hoped to attract a buyer with that work as part of the package. For lots of reasons that didn’t happen.
I’m not sure when Kathy had taken sales to Crutchfield, but I do know that was a huge bone of contention between Jim and Kathy. I don’t know much more except that the stellar Thiel dealer base was gone when I checked in. That was September 2012 at the finalization of the 2.7 which had been co-developed between the long-term Thiel team and a Canadian engineering outsource. That product would not have come from Jim, but was relatively easy picking using the extant 3.7 coax and nearly extant 2.4 woofer in a quasi 3.7 cabinet. I congratulate that product, but it doesn’t really fit his MO. Jim’s natural sequence would have been to develop a 7.3 which would have a 3.7 style coax, possibly with a passive coupling and certainly with smaller diameters (enabled by crossing to larger lower midrange) capable of upper extension past 30K, plus all star-plane lower drivers. Then, trickle-down that driver technology to the 2.5. My conjecture is he would have held by our normal numbering system rather than skipping to the x.7 nomenclature.
After Jim died, and the dealer base was limping, Kathy tried to carry on, but lacked the internal design-research chops. The development cost for the (relatively simple) 2.7 was over a $ quarter million, which was unsustainable for a rather lean company. On my 2012 visit, the factory was a ghost town with perhaps 5 people and no speakers being built. Kathy went shopping for a right buyer with considerable help from industry insiders. No proper buyer was found. The lookers either lacked belief in Jim’s design goals and/or saw and knew the extreme difficulty of actually pulling off true coherence. In 2012 a broker presented the New Thiel buyers and a deal was struck.
At that time something could have been salvaged from the legacy, but they lacked any audio experience and took every wrong turn in the book plus some of their own. Within weeks the last of the old team had been fired or resigned. In the five ensuing years, they went through 5 executive teams and spent about $10M on a sad circus.
Anybody can second-guess anybody else’s judgement. When the dust settled it was just a very hard job suited to a team of very astute insiders aligned with Jim’s goals and vision. None of that materialized.
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Boy that's kind of creepy about the current ThielAudio site. How ignominious.
Some people suck.
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Fascinating to read the story of the Thiel start-up. A bit sad too now that the company is no more. Could you tell us a bit more about what happened to the company after your brother passed on? Thanks Tom.
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Prof - I had not known about that Thiel blog. I don't know who might be funding that site. Someone here may be able to look behind the curtain and see. Otherwise, the person who comes to mind is Rob Gillum as an adjunct to his Coherent Source Service undertaking.
The dates go from just after Jim's death to just before Kathy sold the company at end 2012. Those people are the real operatives saying things they would say, albeit with a few typos and some editorializing. I speculate it may have been Gary Dayton's project. Note there are nearly no responses and that the external links are broken.
Regarding the thielaudio.com site - Ted Green of Strata-gee.com looked behind that curtain a few years ago and indeed, it is some sort of fishing expedition. Note that the external links are broken and that pictures and references are not of Thiel products, but rather generic drop-ins. The odd workings of the webosphere.
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I think the Thiel Weblog was something that Gary Dayton (from Thiel) managed until it stopped in 2011. I'm not sure why it's still sitting out there in cyberspace, but it's fun to read some of the posts. There's even stuff from Rob Gillum on the blog.
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prof
I have heard about Thiel fans over on Reddit but do not know the extent of content?
Happy Listening!
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Fan of Thiel Audio: corrected.
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prof
Thank You for citing this Blogsite. It appears that the last entry was 2011 ?
I venture to say that this information is sitting out there in web-space. Initial entries does not appear to have an author nor look professional? Could have been a fan o Thiel Audio?
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
Good to read that Don's legacy carries on! He was a true Gentleman of Audio.
For those who visited his Operation, it was contractor-carpeted and bare walls.
Still, the space (a suite in a Medical complex) had an incredible, inherent, presentation and sound for Audio systems not easily found.
Happy Listening!
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tomthiel
So do you mean the actual content of that ThielAudio site is "fake," as it were?
And it's just fishing for contact info?
I posted a link to the Thiel blog. I didn't mean it was active, but simply that it is still there and not taken over (like the ThielAudio site) so I figured maybe someone still hosts/maintains it or something?
http://thielaudio.blogspot.com/
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JA - Don died a few years ago. His grandson Mike who grew up around the business is carrying it on with the help of Don's wife and brother.
Prof - I think that's the same site that picked up the domain when New Thiel went bankrupt. Note there's no Thiel content on it. It is (or was) owned by a Swiss gambling consortium who harvests contacts via any which way.
Is there a Thiel Blog being maintained somewhere?
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tomthiel
Thank You for the answer and Thiel Audio history lesson. Very informative.
I will 2nd- The Listening Room. It was a great pleasure to meet and greet with Mr. Don Hoatson in 2012. We had several music sessions that Spring. At that time, He still spoke highly of Thiel loudspeakers. He had a great location and sound studio.
Happy Listening!
Happy Listening!
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Thank you JC for the link to Thiel Audio’s incorporation docs. To correct the record, it seems that Thiel Audio Products Company didn’t incorporate until 1985. So those early borrowings and growth were done under the auspices of Conceptions Studio. Memory has holes. Details fade, but the broad brush still paints true.
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When is indeed a good question. As many of you know, we were making it up as it came and there was no clear launch date.
1976 is the short answer, and pops gets a star.
As our intentional community sought a common enterprise so that no one had to get a real job, we considered hi-fi and stage amps as possible additions to my Conceptions Studio which produced custom and sophisticated art-craft. My first love was guitar-family stringed instruments, plus furniture and other artifacts. Walter Kling was also involved in the studio. We all decided to fund Jim through 1975 to explore and develop an electronic product that was salable, scalable and unique. We thought it would be an amp or pre-amp. His first patent would later be a unique head amp, and it turns out that his equalizer circuit was ahead of its time. He was a natural circuit guy. But we settled on a speaker because we thought we could make more of an impact and better differentiate ourselves there. We set about creating an internally powered speaker along with an 8'x 8' powered folded horn subwoofer, both of which we abandoned because making a new market is such a tall order for a new, inexperienced and self-funded company. So Jim developed the model 01, an equalized 10" two way that was indeed unique and successful.
Early 1976 we sold our limited studio production through friends, word of mouth and home-based gurus, which led to our first ’real’ dealer in nearby Frankfort KY which had a hi-fi department in an appliance store. They sold a lot and suggested we add a model 02 for more audiophile appeal. Jim reluctantly complied, which opened a door to a marketplace where we found our home.
The summer of ’76 Kathy and I moved to Maryland for her further studies in psychology. While there she attracted dealer interest. I’ll go with Pop’s assertion that ’The Sound Room’ outside Baltimore was our first legitimate hi-fi dealer. Kathy took on a good half dozen dealers in Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Many of those pioneers remained productive long-haul dealers for decades.
Selling speakers requires making speakers. I set up shop in Maryland to make equalizers and returned to Lexington one week per month to work with Walter in the shop. Fred Collopy was modeling our start-up for an independent graduate class. Every penny went into more parts and supplies. I bought a van to haul speakers back east every month. We had more demand than we could handle and developed a plan for sustainable growth.
We signed up for CES- January 1977 in Chicago and went big with an outboard hotel suite that showed considerable sophistication. I remember a (British) industry guy speculating to amused listeners that we were supposed be barefoot and pregnant back in Kentucky. That moment became a cogent reminder to keep our professionalism high and avoid reactionism. "Don’t tell ’em, show ’em".
Working 01s and 02s with static prototype of the 03, a floor-standing equalized 3-way expansion of the 01. Nothing about phase or time at that time.
Good show. Good response, including a German distributor which led to better European than US distribution, and got notice from Lyric Hi Fi who was a bellweather at that time.
Back home we decided that the 03 had to be more than just another market entry in a market that was way more crowded than we had imagined. Jim focused on how much effort went into managing time and phase in his amplifier circuits and asked why was it OK to dismiss that at the end of the chain. Many serious experiments turned into a year and a half of unrelenting work to develop the first coherent full-range transducer that we knew of. Turns out that Richard Vandersteen was on a similar journey in California, but neither knew of the other’s work.
The success of that 1977 CES led us to commit, incorporate and borrow start-up funds through our and Kathy’s parents’ second mortgages. Failure was not an option.
The standard answer to when Thiel Audio began is 1977. This early history including The Listening Room predates that date of incorporation, which wouldn’t have happened without the early enthusiastic market support we received.
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Pops - good memory. I’m working on a response for this forum. Listening Room was a very early dealer who remained a very strong supporter for a long time. BTW: Don Hoatson’s grandson, who grew up intertwined with The Listening Room is continuing that business on the Eastern Shore.
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I believe The Listening Room in Maryland was the first retailer to carry Thiel.
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tomthiel
what year did you and Jim start U.S. distribution among Dealers/Retailers ?
Happy Listening!
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Thiel's US distribution began in the mid-Atlantic whereas VS on the West Coast.
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Innovative Audio in Brooklyn, NY carried both Thiel and Vandersteen lines as well.
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tomic601
Good to see you here, as always.
Happy Listening!
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big_greg
Nice score on the CS 3.6 model. Happy Listening!
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Tom - I believe it was the only place that happened. i worked at Audio Connection a Thiel dealer and then at Progressive Audio a Vandy dealer, both in Ohio. I know Curtis after his split w Dick and move to Tacoma. I agree, Dick was both a gifted listener and erudite explainer of the complex. His writings ( Perfectionist Journal ) are archived and hosted on the Vandy site. Yes, unfortunately the good often die young… a deep loss. Grace and peace upon you.
Jim
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tomic - that trip was not in my time. I have read Dick's article(s) that likely resulted from such a trip. I did know about Dick's visit to the Thiel factory. I knew Dick from Havens and Hardesty when they were one of our best and favorite dealers. They were an enormously successful Vandy dealer and RV didn't allow his dealers to take on Thiel - and Dick said 'get over it'. DH and RV were best of friends and we loved DH too. His explanations were so lucid and clear! The good, they die young.
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@tomthiel I certainly appreciate your efforts here and in service of Thiel over the many years. Maybe you remember Jim’s trip with Dick Hardesty and Richard Vandersteen to Catalina Island ? RV remembers that trip w fondness. Best to you. I hope you regain a workspace soon.
Jim
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@big_greg Congrats !,,,,, A pair of the 02 is next ;-)
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New (to me) CS 3.6 speakers in the house tonight. They sound fantastic. I haven't really done any playing around with positioning yet. They are like a much grander version of the 2.3 I currently have without the brightness. What has really surprised me is the bass. So much texture and tonal nuances.
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