Thiel Owners

All

there sweet pair of CS5 loudspeakers offered by Fernando at SkyFi Audio. NJ/NYC area. I hope this classic finds the next good home.

Happy Listening!

tomthiel

Thank You for the follow up to jonandfamily's query. An additional Thank You for due diligence and hard-work making the effort to lift off Thiel Renaissance. If you build it, they will come. I hope you are well this Summer and ready for the Holiday weekend.

Happy Listening!

Jon and other impatients- 

My hope is to join forces with CSS and other talent to re-incorporate Thiel Audio. I have a clear vision and a strong group of significant upgrade offerings. What I lack is critical mass to attract capital for the key ingredient. That is new drivers. Without that key ingredient, classic Thiel’s are dead men walking. I won’t itemize the disappointments, but I will say that my commitment continues.

First offerings will be ‘universal’ applicable beyond Thiel speakers. Cable and a family of suspension products plus a new capacitor family are in this group. Manufacturing start-up is the order of the day.

beetlemania

Good to see you as always.  I understand what 77jovian is trying to convey. I was not impressed with Vandersteen Quattro nor Treo speakers. Something was missing, I cannot place my finger on it. One is better off with the 3A Signature or 5A speaker. Aside from these (2) models, next best step up is the Kento. It is simply Outstanding!  

Thiel models CS 2.4, CS 2.4 SE, CS 2.7 and CS 3.7 are far better than Vandy Quattro and Treo to my ears.  The CS 3.7 is a strong competitor against the Kento. 

This is a Testament for Jim's design and execution practices.

Happy Listening!

@tomthiel I’m sorry if some of the questions have already been discussed. When are we going to have full access to what’s going on behind the curtain? Will it be a grand opening of “Thiel Renaissance LLC” with an online store and multiple items for each of the models you’re working on? Will it be a trickle release of upgrade paths? Will it be a collaboration with CSS? I’m getting impatient like a kid waiting on a cereal box toy.

@77jovian 

“I like the Treos, but I have really fond memories of Thiel 2 2's that I had years ago. ”

I am using an Ayre AX-5 Twenty to drive my heavily modded CS 2.4 (albeit, total resistance is on par with OEM). The CS 2 2 looks to be an easier load. With my combo of amp and source (Ayre QB-9 Twenty), clipping sets in just shy of 100 dB on the 2.4. That’s more than loud enough for my tastes. YMMV, and unsure how the difference in sensitivity translates.

Curious what is missing with your Treos. I absolute love my hot-rodded 2.4s (almost certainly my last ever speakers). But if I were buying new, the Treo CT would certainly be on my very short list.

Terrific Tom. I look forward to results and instructions. 

Jon- stay tuned. I and my brother John also run CS1.2s. I experience a high frequency blackness that I will document through FF replacement therapy. I’ll post results here. 
Gary has FF and instructions.

Does anyone here think I should replace the ferrofluid to the tweeters in my aging CS 1.2s. Another 1.2 owner on a FaceBook Thiel page who lives in Canada said his sounded good but after replacing the ferrofluid, it sounded better. 

Gary has been converting/upgrading the CSS website. Try him again

If you sent contact info, ‘gon may have scrubbed it. 

@Tom--

After your reply on 6/20 I sent a message thru the website contact form. No answer a week later.

I'll try calling.

All-

over on U.S. Audiomart (USADM) there are a sweet pair of 03A speakers with matching EQ.  NJ area. I hope these classic loudspeakers find the next good home.

Happy Listening!

Happy Friday! All

77jovian

Nice supporting gear. Are you running a full loom of Anti-Cable?  If not,

which brands/models of cables and cords?

Happy Listening!

Guy48065 - contact Gary Dayton at Coherent Source Service.

Tom

@Tom,

Are new grilles available for the CS7?

Mine are looking a bit shabby and I'd like to consider a change to beige.

@jafant.  thanks for the response (@unsound, too).  Currently, I am using bi-wired Anti Cables for the Treos.  Sources at this moment are an Ayre CX5eMP and a Lumin D2.  Listening habits include a lot of classical, jazz, rock (though not much metal), bluegrass and acoustic guitar in various ensembles and formats.

Summer Solstice- All

One more question about my 1.6's and adequately powering them...is the IOM Ultra enough or is the 500 better? Is the 500 too much? Thanks!!

IOM Ultra

• Amplifier Modules: Hypex NC252MP (250W).

• 125W stereo: Offers 125W per channel into 4 ohms.
• 250W stereo: Delivers 250W per channel into 4 ohms. 

• Trigger input: Allows for automatic power on/off with devices like the WiiM Ultra.
• RCA inputs: Standard unbalanced inputs.
• XLR inputs (optional): Provides balanced input connections. 

• High Efficiency: Minimizes power consumption and heat generation.
• Universal Mains Operation: Adapts to different power voltages.
• Flat, Load-Independent Frequency Response: Ensures consistent audio quality across various speaker loads.
• Low Output Impedance: Provides excellent control over speakers.
• Very Low Distortion (THD): Reproduces audio with minimal added noise or inaccuracies.

IOM NCore 500

• Amplifier Modules: It uses two Hypex NCx500 modules.
• Output Power:
• Maximum output power of 700W into 2 Ohm or 4 Ohm, at 1kHz with 0.01% THD.
• 380W into 8 Ohm, at 1kHz with 0.01% THD.
• Signal-to-Noise Ratio: 137 dB. This indicates very low background noise.
• Total Harmonic Distortion + Noise (THD+N): As low as 0.0002%.
• Frequency Response: 0 – 70k Hz +0/-3dB.
• Gain Settings: Selectable gain settings of 12.8, 20.5, 27.5, and 29 dB.
• Input Impedance: 50K.
• Inputs: Balanced XLR and unbalanced RCA inputs.
• Trigger Input: 12V trigger input with passthrough.
• Other Features:
• Built-in soft-start and soft shut-down.
• Can be driven by a wide range of input voltages, making it compatible with various sources.
• Features a custom input buffer.

@tomthiel,

Thank you. I too think the CS2.2 and that tweeter are pretty special and will look forward to hearing more about the enhancements.

@77jovian ,

Thiel CS2 2 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

Ayre Acoustics AX-5 integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

Unlike some other Thiel models the CS 2.2's only have a somewhat small and fairly brief dip below 4 Ohms While the Ayre is not actually spec'd to deal with the Thiel CS 2.2's, and FWIW wouldn't be my choice to power them; depending of course on your room and desired volume levels I think you'll  find the AX- 20 adequate.

foamcutter - congratulations on your purchase.

The CS2.2 is dear to me, having served as my location recording monitor and small venue playback for 35 years. I have recently been developing performance upgrades, and the 2.2s have served as workhorses for much of that work. There will be user-installable performance enhancements available one of these days.

Note that Thiel developed this tweeter from the ground up for the CS5. Although its technology was later surpassed, it served brilliantly in the CS5, 3.6 and 2.2.

After spending a good part of nine days with the new-to-me CS2.2 speakers, I can say they are a substantial upgrade in every way over my CS1.5 which I still think highly of. Detailed but not harsh, balanced, and good imaging despite still finding the best location for them. The highs are airy, mids are very good, and sometimes I think the bass is slightly lacking.... then the mood of the music changes or I change genres and suddenly all the bass in the music is there.

77jovian

Nice (potential) score on those 2.2 speakers.  I certainly can attest for AYRE and Thiel being sonic matches. I enjoy the same Integrated Amp with CS 2.4SE loudspeakers.

What other gear and cabling is in your System?

Happy Listening!

I have an opportunity to score some Thiel 2 2's, which would replace my Vandersteen Treo CT's.  I like the Treos, but I have really fond memories of Thiel 2 2's that I had years ago.  They would be paired with an Ayre AX 20 integrated.  I am not one who deeply understands phase angles and impedance curves, current demands, sensitivity plots, etc.  I would heartily appreciate any thoughts on pairing the Thiels with the Ayre.  And, also any overall thoughts on what I might achieve and give up with the swap.

@unsound 

Thanks for the heads up on the Buckeye amps.  I decided to hold off on buying an older amp and will set things up with an IOM Ultra (Hypex-NCORE as well, like Buckeye) amp I already have and see how that goes.  Specs are:

250W stereo:
Output Power (2Ω): 2 x 180W, (BTL 2Ω is not supported)
Output Power (4Ω): 2 x 250W, (1 x 400W in BTL)
Output Power (8Ω): 2 x 150W, (1 x 500W in BTL)
Channels: 2
Output impedance: 2.5mΩ (Max) – f < 1kHz, 5mΩ (Max) – f < 20kHz

Saturday the 14th - All

@unsound, I am not guided by specs since I am not educated enough to understand all of the parameters, but perhaps others can. Like perhaps most of us, my “tools” are my ears and the Kinki Studio (marketing) or not do sound amazing, very transparent and powerful. 

But more importantly in this discussion is the Thiels being such a wonderful reveling speaker that demands only the best to shown his magic. 

Friday the 13th- All

@audiofilio123,  Respectfully; if you subtract all the marketing fluff, those specs aren’t all that special.

@johnnotkathi,

Thank you for saving me from having to reply.

For those who might eschew the objective, and might prefer the subjective;

i suggest comparing the output with one’s ear in direct proximity of a loudspeakers drivers with source turned off: with most of the better new Class D amps compared to traditional  Class A or AB amps. I think most will typically find these  Class D amps to be quieter. I’m not suggesting the SINAD is the be all/ end all, but it is a measure of noise (and distortion) after all.

@unsound 

@devinplombier 

I imagine you understand this better than I do....LOL.....however "quiet" is emphasized...

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/hypex-ncx500-class-d-amplifier-review.41007/

@tomthiel the Kinki Studio power amplifier is indeed different animal, very powerful and transparent with a superior damping factor.

A technical description (taken from the excellent SoundNews review (*) can shed some light about it:

“The EX-M7 is a direct DC coupled power amplifier, meaning that it doesn’t have a single capacitor in the signal path, all the caps you see are used only for power filtering or for storing power for high dynamic swings. You should know that M7 is working in Class-AB, meaning that is consumes a lot of power, offers a lot of power in return and dissipates a lot of heat as well.

With a direct DC coupled design, offering a continuous power of 250W into 8 Ohms, 420W into 4 Ohms and almost double that number for some instantaneous dynamic swings, should result an ultra-fast response time, some world-class dynamics and an amazing transient response without affecting refinement or the detail and the transparency of the sound.

M7 is drawing power from two oversized and encapsulated 400VA toroidal transformers that can provide up to 72 Volts DC and 18 A peak current! I’m sorry, but all my past power amplifiers and integrated ones are sitting numb and silently in a corner. In terms of specs, the big guy simply outperformed them all.

The incredible spec sheet doesn’t stop here: 4 Exicon mosfets are driving the output stage – these are among the best you could possibly have, there are also 4 output transistors per channel (8 in total) that should provide an instant power delivery to your loudspeakers, some high-performance Mundorf caps for power filtering, 8 incredibly large blue caps per channel for storing DC power, another 2 smaller toroidal transformers, I see some juicy and oversized ceramic resistors, and the list goes on and on”

(*) - https://soundnews.net/amplifiers/power-amps/kinki-studio-ex-m7-power-amp-review-a-natural-bare-knuckle-pugilist/

the SINAD measurements

😂🤣🤣

FWIW, the SINAD measurements would suggest otherwise. Not all switch-mode power supplies are the same. At the $1K (and perhaps even more) is a compelling consideration.

Buckeye, VTV and a bunch of other businesses merely integrate stock Hypex modules (or ICEPower, Pascal, etc.) into enclosures, add connectors, etc.

Typically those modules are powered by their own onboard switching-mode power supplies, which are notoriously noisy.

They’re not terrible amps and they may work very well in applications like home theater, but you can’t expect to substitute them for proper class A or A/B amplification and hear no differences.

@johnnotkathi,

 Take this with a grain of salt.

Jim Thiel thought Class D amps were only suitable for sub-woofer duty. But a lot of progress has been made with Class D since Jim's passing. 

I haven't experienced these for myself.

Before considering those older amps that might need to refreshed with new caps, etc., which if you don't have the where with all to do yourself could end up costing as much as the current purchase prices..

FWIW, I would consider the offerings from:

Buckeye Amps

Though there is a 10% restocking fee for non-faulty returns, I think these might actually be better performing with less risk for less money.

Thanks for the instruction on the Copland. What do you suppose accounts for the Kinki Studio superiority with Thiels?

@tomthiel you are probably right… although the Copland, despite not doubling the power at half the impedance, it is a amplifier designed for tough loads.
From the Hifi-News review:

…the CSA70 is a distinct, standalone amp in the range, capable of delivering 2x90W/8ohm and 2x140W/4ohm with sufficient headroom to sustain peaks of 110W, 206W, 352W and a full 475W (21.8A) into 8, 4, 2 and 1ohm loads, respectively [see Graph 1, below]. Add to this fine load tolerance a usefully low 0.01-0.07ohm output impedance and response that's flat to –0.3dB from 1Hz-20kHz (and –1.9dB/100kHz). 

Also the LRS+ are quite demanding, very evident after some listening test with very capable amps, but the Copland finally showed a very firm grip and sure footed performance.

But in the end it was the Kinki Studio combo that revealed everything (!) about the CS.5 capabilities. 
One question: what kind of speaker cable is recommended for the Thiels?

@tomthiel 

@jafant 

@unsound 

@duramax747 

Based on your feedback, am looking around in the area for a possible addition to my gear, that of a power amp that suits the 1.6's.  So far I have found:

Hafler Trans Nova 9505 and a Yamaha M80.  Both advertised at $1k and reported to be in great shape functionally and cosmetically.  Still searching...

audiofilo123 - the 'funny' part about your Copland amp comment is that Thiel speakers require current-source power rather than the ubiquitous voltage sources. An amp that will drive a Thiel, including your little CS.5s, should double its 8 ohm power rating into 4 ohms and at least 1.5x its 4 ohm rating into 2 ohms. 

The Copland might do well with higher impedance speakers, but not have the current delivery capability that your Thiels require.

Frustrating? Maddening? Yes. Solvable? Yes.

@jafant thanks!

To be clear, I have the small 0.5 and not the big 5 model, nevertheless they are unbelievable. 
Funny how the Copland CSA70 can efficiently power the LRS+ but not the CS.5.

After so many amplifiers it was the Kinki Studio combo that could show what these little Thiel can do! …also, they are 25+ years speakers that look and sound like new! 

foamcutter

Keep me posted if you decide to purchase those 02 speakers.

Happy Listening!

audiofilo123

Good to see you here today.  We have many fans/owners of CS 5 on The Panel.

Good to read that Kinki Studio, NAIM and Vincent are sonic matches.

Happy Listening!

I have been enjoying my Thiel CS.5 from time to time, as I roll several components along the year, but they have been a bit forgotten by the arrival of the Magnepan LRS+, little more than a year ago.

The CS.5 sounded very good powered by the Vincent SV-237MK, Rogue Sphinx v1 (both already sold) and specially engaging with the Naim 122x / Fc2x / 150x (a surprise!).

Some months ago, the Kinki Studio EX-P7 and EX-M7 pre-power combo came to elevate the system’s performance to a new level, in every aspect. This was with the Totem Model and the LRS+.

Then, a week a go, it was time to give place to CS.5 and my jaw immediately dropped! I have never listened to this level of quality from the little Thiels! My lord! The imaging, soundstage, depth and percussion realism is like a miracle: the speakers totally vanished (like never before) presenting a huge sound, well balanced, palpable and hugely engaging. No trace of sibilance of fatiguing…

Of corse, like with the Totem or Magnepan, a REL Stampede 5 helps in the low frequencies department, but in a perfectly non-perceptive way.

Kudos to Thiel (what a quality product! They perform and look like new!)…and also to Kinki Studio :)

Thank you Tom I appreciate it. 

I drove to audition the 02's.  They sounded good but the cabinets showed more damage to the wood veneer than I was comfortable with so I did not purchase them. So I drove another hour and auditioned a really nice set of CS2.2 which I'm just getting setup in my listening room.

@duramax747

I aacpt your offer. What part of NC are you loctaed in?

Sorry for the late reply, I've been in Phoenix all week at a conference. I'm actually in West Virginia just outside of Washington D.C., sending you a PM to continue the discussion. 

foamcutter - your best source of further information is Gary Dayton at Coherent Source Service.

The model 02 woofer had a rubber surround on a paper cone. It was made by GEFCO of Illinois.

Woofer: Gefco 4829 6.5” 6 ohm 1” aluminum former

Tweeter: Peerless KO 10DT 8 ohm

Second Thiel speaker released in autumn 1976 at $220 / pair

Hi all,

I have an opportunity to purchase a pair of Thiel Model 02's. Do these have foam or rubber surrounds... I've found online info that suggests it could be either ?

How do I be sure the drivers are original without removing them from the cabinets ? Speaker serial numbers are in the mid 300's.  Thank you.