Thiel Owners

prof,

I agree on your assessment of the CS 7.2. 

My viewpoint is the 3.7 has better drivers and the 7.2 impliments their drivers better. 

The upgrade path for the CS 7.2 is pretty exciting. 

Utilizing Tom's Bi-Flow wire technology with proprietary Golden caps will be ground breaking for sure. Eliminating the 100uf electrolytic caps with film will no doubt put more meat on the bone in lower Midrange. 

There are other upgrades as well,  which is really exciting since it's current performance level is as you say "memorable". 

I run large Class A amps, which really does the big Thiel justice mixed with a 300B pre. That combo is intoxicating. 

Currently I use cabling contradictory of moost Thiel users. I use some silver cabling. I have no brightness. I like music fast like live music and silver in my application achieves this. Bottom end is very tight with plenty of weight.

I'll be getting a pair of 3.7 so I can spend time with them. I try to rotate speakers around as I had the CS 5i in previously. Listening to a sealed speaker you hear the bass in real time and it is difficult to go back.

duramax747

Agreed re sealed speakers.

I am curious about your listening impressions of the CS 5i v the CS 7.2? My understanding is that the former is a true sealed enclosure, whereas the latter have passive radiators (correct me if I’m wrong :)

Thanks!

“Listening to a sealed speaker you hear the bass in real time and it’s difficult to go back.” I very much agree!

Happy Friday! All

In the early years, Thiel considered reflex bass as a necessary cost-compromise only for entry level products ie home theater and models 1 and 2. When it came time to replace the CS3.5 with the 3.6, I resisted going to reflex bass in the 3, which had always embodied our highest aspirations. The equalizer needed improvements which were judged too expensive for the target price. Fair enough. I lobbied (unsuccessfully) for a modified CS5 style bass with overall system impedance high enough such that the falling bass impedance could stay above 4 ohms. The prevailing argument was that ports (a performance step down from our passive radiators) were ubiquitous, even in speakers selling in $6 figures.

Nonetheless, our foundational commitment to time-alignment was compromised. Reflex puts the deepest fundamentals a full cycle behind the action. As duramax has said " the bass player is out in the parking lot". Thiel’s reflex bass is implemented as well as I’ve seen at any price, but it does unavoidably delay the deep bass.

So you know, we have prototyped an equalizer using Jim’s excellent topology but adding regulation and more beef to the power supply,  higher grade caps and metal film resistors - while still remaining affordable.

Another problem with straight bass (non-reflex) is that very large driver excursions are required, which works against our underhung, low distortion motors. My assessment is that if push comes to shove, an overhung woofer motor is far better aligned with Thiel values than is the reflex timing error.

All of the upgrade technologies we are developing in the SCS4 workhorse will be applicable to all Real Thiel speakers. The 7.2s weak link is a 400uF bank of electrolytic caps in a parallel notch filter. Although considered less audible than series-feed circuitry, shunt filters are audible. I have developed two fixes. 4x100uF film caps, which is expensive and large enough to only apply to an outboard crossover. But another fix is to replace the 4 x 100uF electrolytics with 8x50uF higher grade Els in a bundled layout concentric around a new Golden Cascade 1uF bypass with its coaxial sections decreasing to 0.015uF. That’s the minimus value we landed on and used in the CS3, 3.5, 2, 1 and 1.2. The cost and footprint of this fix is accessible for an inboard crossover. Lovely improvement.

Regarding duramax’s silver cabling. I have also found silver to be magnificent and free of any excess brightness - depending on design - many elements are in play in cables. I have some custom silver plated copper wire that plugs right into my BiFlow topology. The extra cost of silver is significant, but my geometry has cost-effective manufacturability. So a silver option is on the radar. 

Our behind-the-scenes rate of progress has been called ’glacial’. It’s really slow, but also quite large.

@tomthiel, of course you would know better than me. But, aside from being able to make the under hung motors more available across the various models , which  is somewhat negated by the lowered price point models using different woofers anyway, I think the sealed boxes were the better choice. Other manufacturers such as Dunlavy with similar performance goals were able to do it. Though to be fair the Dunlavy’s used more drivers in bigger boxes or used acoustic floor volume reinforcement. All of which created a different set of concerns. I’m not sure all would agree, but I for one think those, and the previous use of eq were worth it.

Unsound - I agree with you. The equalizer does everything right sonically. The bass extension rolls off at the bottom at 12dB/ octave like real unamplified output. The upper frequency electronic ’tizz’ is solved with the new unit.

Our problem, especially in the early days, was under-pricing what we were delivering, and therefore living under very strict budget limitations. Note Dunlavy’s price multiple vs a similarly-reviewed Thiel. I did some cabinet consultation for Dunlavy. Behind their curtain, Thiel’s component quality and overall performance / cost and was far higher. The Audio Upgrades re-design of Jim’s EQ is significantly better, but would have come in at about double the cost of Jim’s design.

As you know, our plans include reintroduction of retro-fittable midrange and tweeter to remove the obsolete product concern, and then offer this new EQ as an upgrade for your upgraded model 3 equalized models. There were 10,000 pair of model 3s with that equalizer (combined 03a, CS3 and CS3.5). Quite a few of those are still in use.

As background, I advocated for a higher performance line of our speakers which would have allowed greater budgets. Think Lexus / Toyota. That idea didn’t fly primarily because they felt it would cheapen the perception of our stock products. Marketing would have been more dimensional, but I think we would have shone brightly in that arena. I would have preferred that business model vs diving into Home Theater for survival as value-priced 2 channel faded against emergent HT.

devinplombier

You are correct the CS5i is sealed and CS 7.2 passive radiator. When I mentined sealed speaker I was referrring to the CS5i.

As Tom mentioned all the upgrades will be implemented across Thiel product line. 

I've listened to the CS 5i and CS 7.2 the past 8 months or so. 

In new room they are both dialed in and its a roller coaster ride of emotion. 

The CS 5i takes massive power for her to clear her throat and really sing. You havn't heard a botton end until you hear the CS 5i. When it hits it hits hard, fast,and with authority. 

Going to the CS 7.2 it takes time to acclimate as it cannot match the slam of the CS5i. The CS 7.2 has better tonal balanced though.

With the deep dive Tom has taken with extensive upgrades, these two models will rival speakers north of 50k very easily. 

Regarding using  silver cables  I have found that soft annealed silver is what you need. It has a very distinct characteristic. Fast, clarity, heightened soundstage and a natural decay so notes dont linger longer than what is natural. 

Any members here in N. Carolina are welcome to come on by for a listen and compare copper vs silver.

When you see a man tapping his foot with a smile on his face you know you arrived at the right place. 

duramax747

Thank you, this is very informative. 

I’ve been searching for speakers for over a year at this point. I narrowed it down to CS 5i and Infinity IRS Beta, and maybe Revel Salon 2. I say "maybe" because on principle I’d rather stay away from ported enclosures, but they got much praise that I would still like to seriously audition them.

I set up searches for all three, but the CS 5i and the Beta are rare as hen’s teeth here in the Pacific Northwest; and those outside the region are usually for local pickup only.

I would love to hear the CS 5i but unfortunately I won’t be able to take you up on your kind offer due to distance 🙂

devinplombier

Indeed the CS5i are difficult to obtain. To find them in your region of the US and with shipping cartons becomes even more difficult. 

They have plywood crates so cannot understand why owners would not have the crates other than the space they take up and they threw them away. 

When buying always ask this question "What amps did you use with the CS 5i"?

If they were cared for the amps would be massive with high current. 

I will share a purchase I made on a rare pair of CS5i.

I was not looking for a pair of CS 5i as I had a pair, but came across this pair in dark walnut. I emailed the seller and told him I wish these speakers went to a good home and ended it there. The seller started to communicate with me and his fear was someone would hook up an inferior amp to these beauties and blow the drivers and ruin these speakers he had cherished. 

We eventually struck a deal on price and I was going to own another pair. 

This gentlemen had the odacity to not honor our price but instead lowered his price substantially and white van the speakers to my place for free.  He stayed in a hotel from the day’s driving and arrived early the next morning. 

When he arrived he had the odacity again to offer to "set them up properly for me" and get this for free.

Well scratch my back with a hacksaw as I thought I was in the midst of a Twilight Zone episode. 

We started talking and come to find out his grandfather was one of the original Thiel dealers in the country. Thiel dealers would come into your home and set up the speakers, "properly".

Not only did I get a pristine pair of CS 5i with a campfire type story, I also received the plywood shipping crates and all the original accessories. The footers came in a case that were foam fitted with the manual.

When you come across the right seller for CS 5i he will take point in the conversation and ask the questions interviewing you to see if you are a candidate for these speakers. They are that special. 

When Tom came by on his Thiel journey I shared with him the story of the newly acquired CS 5i. He saw the crates which broiught him to a time past and I could see he was having a moment as he was beaming with pride. These were the shipping containers so I did not dare show him the speakers. 

He shared the story that the gentleman that brought the speakers was the grandson of one of their original dealers. He said he knew him when he was a boy at his grandfathers shop. 

We did not listen to this pair of CS5i but instead a pair of ultra rare Brazilian Rosewood. When Tom saw them he was telling me how he acquired this rosewood through the jungle of Brazil/Boliva. He went on to say this was real Brazilian Rosewood acquired legally as it is almost impossible to lay your hands on any today. 

This is another story but they were also white van delivered to our place for free which was over 850 miles of traveling. 

My point. If you find a pair of CS 5i there should be a story behind them and the seller will be very accomadating to make sure they go too a good home. 

This to me is the Thiel Legacy. 

ig316b,

Amberwood is a beautiful wood. Congrats on the CS6 as they are great speakers. They are easier to set up than their older siblings and share some of the same characteristics. Not as difficult to drive as CS5i or CS 7.2. Great find. 

I have a pair in Zebrawood. 

Regarding the McCormack DNA 0.5 I’ve talked to Steve and he informed me this is the amp to buy used to send in for upgrades. He is a complete gentleman that knows his stuff and has very fair pricing. I would take the plunge if budget permits. 

Again with the upgrades that will be offered I’m confident the CS 6 will compete with speakers today in the 25-30K realm. 

I heard three versions of Tom’s SCS4 workhorse. Each revision had further upgrades. When we listened to the final revision, at the time, I was scrathing my head in disbelief at this transformation. It was like a veil removed and I was permitted to enter the holy of holies.

When Tom told me this can be done to all Thiel speakers it was difficult to grasp.

Going from stock SCS4 to what I heard can also be done on my beloved CS 5i, CS 7.2, CS 6, CS 2.7, CS 2.4SE I was moving my entire stack of chips to the pot and say "I’m all in". 

duramax747

Thank you for a great story. Fingers crossed :)

Thank you for the kind words everyone.
duramax747

Thanks for the reassurance from Steve but I was thinking they sounded good already. My pair of 0.5's were finished to monoblocks back in 2012 to a Platinum+ edition and I have been very pleased with them. I'm only considering sending the back in to a little improvements like the gravity base if he still offers it. I still need to ask.
I might take you up on your offer for a listening session, we could do an aural exchange. I would get the opportunity to experience the 7.2's and you could experience the McCormack's, I have two pair of monoblocks, 0.5 Platinum and Stock DNA 1.0's.  One has the current while the other has the finesse.

If this sounds interesting to you let me know we can work out the details.

As far as the speaker and crossover upgrades I'm looking forward to the outcome. It's very intriguing.

Tomtiel

Keep the stories coming, I always like reading your insights about the back ground  development of these speakers as well as your future upgrades for these.

ig316b,

I aacpt your offer. What part of NC are you loctaed in? 

I sent my amps out to be serviced so they should be back in a few weeks. 

Having Steves amps on CS 7.2 I'm curious how the 7.2 will respond.

This will be a fun session. 

New to the thread so hopefully I’m not interrupting the flow, but recently acquired a pair of pristine 1.6’s and I am interested in any recommendations around amplification. Currently I am using a NAD C375BEE which seems to do quite well with them. Thanks everyone and must say this incredibly long thread is a great read!  John

John,

Welcome. 

Though I will not offer a specific amp amp, as I have not done the amp/1.6 evaluation in my test. I will say what is consistent across the producr line is big power and Class A, if it permits. 

I have a preference for the various models I have and they are all different for each model. 

Tom told me this about Jim. He stated the amp to drive his speakers would cost more than his speakers. 

Not knowing your room size will limit suggestions you may receive. 

John - Jim worked hard in the CS1.6 to bring the sensitivity up. His spec was 90dB@2.83V. Stereophile’s review measured 94dB. So, amps far less powerful than for normal Thiels will work on the 1.6. The impedance runs just under 4 ohms across the board; that’s not as punishing as some other Thiels like the 3.6. Note howwever that the reflex slot is far more reactive than any other Thiel. Consult Stereophile’s review for details and considerations.

The binding posts with their big brass knobs are sonically destructive. Upgrade your sonic experience by backing the knobs all the way off and putting some locking bananas on your cables. When the time comes, there will be crossover upgrades for substantial improvement at reasonable cost. The 1.6 drivers and enclosure are better than its crossover component quality.

johnnotkathi

Welcome! Good to see you here today. NAD built a few sleeper products over the years. The C375BEE could very well be on of those products. As Tom pointed out, the CS 1.6 is not a difficult load to push. What other gear is in your System?

Happy Listening!