I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Hey jafant, I've been building my system for the the past few years and the VTL 5.5 preamp was my first real "high-end" acquisition. It quickly became the heart of my rig! I think this is one of those rare tube preamps that offers the musicality and sweetness of tubes with the total sonic control of a great solid state unit. It also packs enough gain and current to feed the least sensitive amps. I recently had it running my Pass Labs F5 (with all of its 25 class A Watts) and my Thiel 3.5s actually sounded quite wonderful. Ended up going back to my two bridged Sherwoods because they gave me just a little more in the bass department.
Just about anything that supports or is near something electronic in my humble abode rests atop, in, or on a Salamander rack. The piece in the virtual systems photo is the only one not from its Synergy series which I've had for years.
I appreciate the clean lines, understated design, and the heft of their construction - one of the foremost reasons I had from the outset was in providing as much isolation as possible. The block of maple under the BAT may be somewhat superfluous at this point, but what the hell. I don't need another cutting board in my kitchen.
I've been reading about one member's questioning a move from his 3.6's to the 6, whether or not such an investment is sonically worth it. From my experience, limited as it has been with 2.2, 2.3, 3.5, and now 3.6, I can state with some degree of accuracy that the differences between the first three models is, by comparison, modest in terms of anything relevatory. The difference in "moving up" from the 3.5 to 3.6 is remarkable. They are VERY different loudspeakers which, given my journey thus far, could have me pining for a 5 in short order. There again, I would assume that the 5 is VERY different from the 3.6.
I hasten to to add that, IMHO, the 3.6's are more detailed, perhaps even more focused on the mids than were/are the 3.5's - and all to an impressive degree. I don't believe I was missing anything with the 3.5's in that respect, but the 3.6's just deliver more - especially at the conservative level I listen at. I always had the 3.5 eq employed because I had no reason to question Thiel's engineering. The sacrifice in low end hertz with the 3.6's is hardly anything to kvetch about. (3.5's 20hz-20khz, 3.6's 27hz-20khz.) Sheesh, vot's a few hoitz between friends, anyway.
Since we now no longer have the opportunity to audition the legacy models, I guess I'm saying that moving up yields risk to some degree, but seeing how the speaker models evolve is a gas.
The better racks are made of various Maple wood(s), very dense and provides support well. Keeps down vibrations too. I just ran across a pair of CS 3.6 at $1599 in south Florida (eBay). Hopefully, the pair will find a good home via you owners who sing its praises. That is why we are all here!
Some Thiel owners use products by Sound Anchor. I am fortunate that the CS 2.4SE automatically comes w/ outriggers. This particular model was designed specifically w/ outriggers in mind per Mr. Thiel. Better performance, focus and imaging are delivered in spades. I have read about using marble or granite as bases as well.
I will check out "Ball of Confusion". I enjoyed Summer and ready for Fall.
That's a block of maple I had left over from when my previous Salamander rack was about a foot lower. I purchased the block here on the site, they come up from time to time and they're well made - somewhere in the $100 range if I ain't mistaken. I think I still have another block somewhere in the house.
That Salamander rack in the photo cost me $150. Just before Stereo Exchange in NYC vacated their long time location they were selling off everything, even stuff that was nailed down. (They are still searching for a new location at the moment.) Dave will email me when they re-open. (The REL sub I mentioned in an earlier post was bought from their eBay site which is up and running.) I picked it up at his apartment. Sheesh.
Even though the Salamander rack isn't "gear" per sè, it has to represent one of the best purchases I've invested - that's easily a $1500 piece o' furniture. Nary a scratch on it. While not in the photos, there are two other Salamander cabinets in the room which hold my manuals, tools, cables, etc., all of the other associated flotsam and jetsam that we accrue in the hobby.
At 107 pounds apiece them 3.6's aren't about to be fiddled with much. It was fun unpacking them. Not! The boys at Saturday Audio made sure they'd arrive in good shape. Hell, they could have been dragged to my house with no worse the wear.
Last night we was bbq'ing at my gf's house, listening to a Motown playlist on my Peachtree Audio Deepblue2 in the back yard. (iPod through its aux jack, the Bluetooth option stinks.) I also set the bass level at its lowest position - this thing doesn't need it.
"Ball Of Confusion" by the Temptations came on and everybody just stopped. Man, what a busy little tune. Top 40 radio in 1970. So difficult to imagine now what commercial radio was back then. It's just an amazing piece of music for any time. It's the first thing I'm throwing at my Thiels later this afternoon when I get home. If it sounded so damn good on a portable speaker it out to be glorious through the 3.6's.
Yes, about that close to either the 3.7 or 2.7. I tend to listen to one pair for a couple weeks, then swap them for the other pair.
Angling varies depending on how wide I've placed them or if I desire more lively sound. I only ever use the tiniest angling in when I do, but usually no angle - facing straight ahead. I still get excellent center-fill, even from the wide spacing and not angled in.
Thank You Robinbarbour I knew I should test that to see if the pop moves to the other speaker, but moving the 56 lbs off the shelf was a last choice, I thought I'd ask others first.
You want to hear Bass ! Try Sandy Denny's 3:10 to Yuma or David Crosby's Cowboy Movie.
Prof do you sit that close with both sets ( are you moving them in and out of position ? if so my back hurts thinking about it ) , how much do you angle inwards ? I have just about the perfect 8 foot triangle ( hard to be perfect with sloped speakers ) with about a 10 degree angle inwards .
Reading over this thread, I cited, Pearl Jam "Ten" as a 90's reference because it is very well recorded for that period. Jeff Ament uses a fretless Bass on many of those numbers. The instrument really struck me upon my first Thiel demo with CS 2.4 speakers in a special light.
Very sweet pic of the B.A.T. in your Virtual Systems profile.
What kind of base/block is it resting? Also, good to read that B.A.T. and Transparent cabling are sonic matches. This is important for future upgrades via Transparent w/o switching brands (unless you wish to do so). I like those 70's Joni Mitchell discs, well recorded.
No pops either with my 2.7 or 3.7s. I have CJ amps and pre-amp.
Yes I'm still going back and forth between the 3.7s and 2.7s. 3.7s for the more relaxed (and slightly more resolved, I think) sound, effortless scale and soundstaging, 2.7s for the smaller, denser, more focused and punchy sound (and seemingly a bit more lively dynamics, which is interesting given the higher sensitivity of the 3.7s).
If only it were that easy. The whole reason I’d considered selling them is that they are large enough to present an ergonomic/aesthetic problem in my rather idiosyncratic set up where they share space with a full surround home theater system as well. Hence I’ve been auditioning everything under the sun (smaller). In fact I was so set on selling the 3.7s that I actually took them to a local furniture restorer guy to have them looked over, to freshen them up for selling (very minor signs of wear on them). As I was loading those beasts in to my car to get them to the furniture guy, I said "that does it, these things are just too big, good riddance..."
But then while they were in the shop I continued to audition speakers and nothing grabbed me. When the 3.7s came back they looked gorgeous, like new, fresh out of the factory. Continuing to audition stuff has only made it sink in how special the Thiels are so I figured I would keep them and still consider a smaller speaker (like the Joseph Audio Perspectives), essentially having the peace of mind of not having let the Thiels slip through my fingers. The fact the 3.7s have become so rare on the used market is also a major factor.
Now I have the 2.7s as well, figured I’d choose between them and the 3.7s, but the fact they sound different, both great in their own way, and the fact I found the 2.7s in my most coveted, rare ebony finish, makes THEM hard to part with as well. This is why I always end up with too many speakers.
BTW, my 3.7s are currently set up 8 feet apart, 6 1/2 feet from the listening position (7 feet if I recline on the sofa), facing almost straight ahead.
I’ve just been re-visiting the tech literature and interviews with Jim Thiel about all the ideas, advances and work that went in to his speakers, especially the 3.7. It really helps explain why I can audition newer speaker models of other manufacturers, even really highly lauded ones, and still come home to be all the more impressed by the Thiels: there was just so much original thinking by Jim, such a persistent dedication towards refining a specific goal for 30 years - the special design of the woofer system for lower distortion, the new rippled-but-flat midrange unit, the bent wood design of the cabinet etc. Virtually everything designed and made by Thiel. No wonder you don’t get what the Thiels do from other manufacturers, and there’s every reason to expect the novel design of the Thiels to remain competitive if not advanced for many years to come.
The mid-bass on down in particular blows my mind because it separates itself from the crowd so distinctly. At least in my room, I get the most pitch perfect, holographic, non-speaker-like bass I have ever heard by a long shot. I frankly would not have believed that level of bass transparency and control was even possible before hearing these things, given it’s such a problem with most other speakers.
I also think Jim just finally nailed the coaxial mid/tweeter design in the 3.7. The idea of coaxially mounting the drivers is great in terms of having the signal arrive at the right time no matter where you sit. I’d listened to other phase/time coherent speakers - Dunlavy - and owned Meadowark speakers which were first order crossover/time coherent as well. But those designs, especially the Meadowlark, did suffer from the traditional problems of lobing/interference - a weird suckout in the first order crossover design that made for a phasey sensation when moving my head especially vertically.
In previous Thiel speakers - e.g. the CS6s I had and others - though better, they still had this residual coloration, a bit of a hollowness in the upper midrange sometimes, especially depending on seating height.
The 3.7s, I’m supposing because of finally being able to mount the tweeter within a flat mid driver, seems to have totally banished that issue. The midrange is so pure, and so coherent right through into the treble, with no noticeable dips or tells, over a wide seating area.
It’s hard to shake the Thiels once you are used to them; other speakers will tend to be revealed as more colored. I even remember when I first heard the 3.6s at a dealer. Aside from the better than normal image specificity and density and transient believably, there was a distinct impression that everything was lined up as it should be, without emphasis, producing an overwhelming impression: "this is what the original recording actually sounds like." Similar to the first time I heard the Quad ESLs (within their range).
Anyway, it’s good to have a Thiel owner thread where we can rave about Thiel - sort of like having close family who will listen to you talk about your kids :-)
No pop here with the 2.7 - sounds more like an amp issue. My cj amp had a similar issue on powering down no matter the speaker and investigation showed a lot of users with similar issue. Didn't harm anything, but annoying. I drove six hours as I recall to get my pair of 2.7's...each way. No regrets!
Prof , it seems like your listening to your 3.7s now , are you still going back and forth with the 2.7s ?
Question to all 2.7 and 3.7 owners Do you hear a pop when turning your amp off ? This pop sounds like either the tweeter popping back or a capacitor in the crossover discharging quickly , and it only happens on one speaker.
Reading about the freight cost and willingness to travel long distances to get a pair of speakers was interesting to see how far audiophiles will go to acquire a pair of original Thiels . I was going to rent a van and drive 110 miles to Portland to buy a pair of 3.6s but by the time I decided to do it they were sold, lucky me because new 2.7s became available less than a1/2 year later, and the price included delivery !
Just got a new Grado Reference Master 1 cartridge , nice upgrade from a Grado Reference Sonata . Took a long time to adjust everything , getting the anti-skating down was time consuming and couldn't have been done without the Cardas frequency sweep & burnin LP. Had to set it at 159 grams to keep it neutral in both of the groove-less tracks that are used to test anti-skating .
I updated my virtual systems page to show the BAT integrated in place.
The speakers are approximately 8 feet apart and about 18" from the back wall. (I actually have a stick marked in increments of six inches.) Like my 3.5's, the 3.6's seem to like 18 inches from the rear wall. I sit around 12 feet away which, at low volumes, can be something that leaves things to be desired. Since the 3.6's arrived I've been listening at slightly higher volume levels which appears to be what these speakers just...love. Period. I am constantly reminded how excellent Thiel speakers are - all of the models I've enjoyed. They just absolutely do it for me.
Funny, there is a pair of WHITE 3.5's up on eBay now. I've never seen 3.5's in white before. Kinda cool but...sheesh! Not my cuppa tea.
Carry on, folks. This is hands down a great thread.
Very interesting setup! I can sort of imagine the effect you're getting is almost like listening through a set of headphones, in that sitting close and having no toe-in, you basically cancel out most of each speaker's sound from reaching your opposite ear. I actually have my 3.5s pretty wide with just a bit of toe-in and frequently find myself rolling my chair forward till I'm just a few feet behind them.. totally enveloping soundstage- an immersive musical experience. I can only imaging, with their coaxial drivers the 3.7 will take this experience to a different level.
Curious.. how big is your room and how far apart do you have the speakers?
I look forward in reading about your Audio journey as well. Please post your listening thoughts/impressions on the Modwright, Marantz combo w/ your CS2 speakers.
Hope you find this thread helpful and informative. Keep searching for your "pair" of Thiel loudspeakers. I look forward in reading about your Audio journey.
It's sales like the one you got that will drive down the price of my 3.7s if I have to sell them!! ;-)
Lucky guy.
Sounds like you are well set up for the 3.7s. I'll be really curious what you think. I'm driving mine with 140W of conrad johnson tube power and they are controlled beautifully from top to bottom. The 3.7s are a bit overdamped in the bass relative to a lot of other big speakers, which actually makes them easier to place in real rooms. You can really modulate the sound via placement (like most speakers). I tend to prefer a nearer placement (I'm about 6 to 7 feet from mine) and the 3.7s remain coherent close up (the coincident mid/tweeters and their wide bandwidth certainly help that).
The 3.7s sound smooth either toed in or toed out - the more you toe in (again like many speakers) the brighter and more focused the sound. I actually prefer the Thiels widely spaced, facing essentially straight ahead, with just about no toe in. The sound becomes much bigger, more spacious, with more dimensionality and depth to the imaging, but also a warmer, richer tone.
I'm curious what positioning will work best for you.
Jon, thanks for not holding a grudge. After all we're all fellow Thielistas! Also, thanks for the link. Some very interesting reading on JTs design philosophy.
Thanks for the warm welcome and positive encouragement on the speaker shipping!
I'm figuring out how to set up my virtual system... but, it's basically a rag-tag group of vintage components that have somehow learned to play nice with each other and actually sound really great with my 3.5. My analog front end features a direct-drive JVC al-y7 turntable with an AT oc9ii cart. Digital source is a Pioneer Elite (upside-down) CD transport into a Schiit DAC. My preamp is an all tube VTL 5.5, and the amps are a pair of 1963 Sherwood a-5500 iv in bridged mono, feeding about 160w per channel into 4ohms. Interconnects are Monster Sigma retro golds and Speaker cables are Straightwire Serenades. As far as power I have everything hooked up to a 20amp Equitech son of Q, with several power cords from jps labs and Acoustic Zen. Like I said, strange group of components that actually sound quite musical together.. especially through THIELS ;)
I've always been nervous about having speakers shipped so I tend to constrict my inquiries to "local" sellers. I just had a gent drive up from Tennessee to pick up a pair of Alon ll's that I had for a month - now THAT's audiophile! (But that's another thread altogether, ain't it?)
Audiogon, Thiel, damn you! Since becoming a member you have driven me to an enjoyable madness. I hasten to add that all of the stuff I have bought over the last few years were attempts to find the "right" matches for my Thiels. It was never, "gee, these speakers kinda suck" as it was "gee, these speakers need better stuff" even though they immediately made my room sound better no matter what amp I had at the time.
McIntosh, Musical Fidelity, Primare, Threshold, Simaudio, BAT, GAS, Pass Labs, Conrad Johnson, Audio Research (pre only) - each have had their go at my 3.5's. This quest has had its ups and downs, I wish I still had my Pass X150.5 to see how it would do with my 3.6's now. I moved to an integrated recently because I grew weary of all the wires and NASA type startup procedures involved with separates, but who knows what the future and/or opportunities may present?
Of the aforementioned amps etc the Pass amp/BAT pre combo was, IMHO, perhaps the best. (CS3.5) I also liked the ARC preamps I employed - brighter than the BAT yes, but I like bright more than most. At this point in time a Pass INT 150 remains out of my reach financially. Used they're going for upwards of $6k. My BATVK300xse integrated is doing swell right now.
The difference between the 2.2 and 2.3's I had was minimal. The difference between the 2.3's and 3.5's was not - it was a much more obvious difference, and all good. The difference between the 3.5's and 3.6's is immediately obvious - very different, but all good. What an amazing product Thiel is.
I negotiated an unbelievable deal on a new pair of Ultima Salon2s from HiFi Buys in Nashville. Believe me, I read all the reviews and I listened to them in their Nashville store with some high powered McIntosh gear in a large listening room. When I put them in my smaller listening room with my tube gear, they lacked the huge soundstage I was accustomed to, they lacked the Thiel warm bass that seems to penetrate my viscera, and they were simply fatiguing to listen for more than an hour. I really did a bunch of repositioning and changing around my acoustic treatments, but I just never found that magic. Since I have a tough time connecting my right brain feelings to my left brain verbalization, the best way to express my thoughts are like you say.....realism and believability.
Obviously, there are too many variables to make a blanket assumption including the fact that I probably never gave them time for a full break-in and maybe didn't have adequate power, but the bottom line is that I didn't have the patience or money to rebuild my entire system around the Revels. My original deal was so good that I was able to easily sell them without a loss. The process did make me more content with my Thiels. All I want to do now is to try out other Jim Thiel speakers to see if my 3.6s are my favorite.
Wow, you got rid of the Revel Ultima Salon2s? Those are among the most universally lauded flagship speakers! And you probably know they were designed via the blind-testing facilities at Harmon. There's a big thread on them, along with great input by Floyd Toole, at the AVSforum.
Can you tell me what disappointed you about the Revels?
I haven't heard that model, but I've auditioned a couple slightly lower on the rung and while I was generally impressed as they sounded really neutral and well designed, I still preferred my Thiel 3.7s (and 2.7s). Something about that Thiel tone, soundstaging, realism...
We have a couple of new Thiel owners, so if you haven't seen this site, its a good start for understanding legacy Thiels. https://coherentsource.wordpress.com/
AH, Found the Thiel thread. Just got a pair of CS2 and am putting it through the paces. Powered by a Modwright KSA 150 SE with a 9.0 Anniversary Pre. Marantz SA-11 SACD player. Only had them for 2 days and hav not had time for a good session or time to read this thread, but my initial impressions are that these are sweet sounding speakers. More to follow. Jeff
You deserve these because I did what I have done before....hesitated because of the distance between me and the 3.7s. I did not want to chance the shipping. I could not convince my wife that we needed a vacation to Tulsa. I thought I had worked out a deal for him to personally deliver them to Birmingham for 4K, but I think my extra money wasn't worth the 22 hour round trip.
I was lucky to find a mint pair of CS3.6s for $1.2K about 100 miles from me 5 years ago, and I have bought and sold several speakers since then never bettering the magic I get with my Thiels. This included the Revel Ultima Salon2s which lasted only about a month before I sold them. Boy, were they a disappointment, and I had to crate and freight those across the country over 2000 miles.
Yes, welcome arniespin and I look forward to hearing your impressions of the 3.7s. Also, I think most of us would like to hear about the rest of your system. Maybe you can add your "virtual system" to Audiogon.
I've had pretty much all my speakers shipped, usually from the USA to Canada. So far no problems, but I have to say if anything is going to cure me of my speaker obsession it's shipping and receiving - I think I'm done shipping big speakers! What a hassle.
As you may have read have been an ardent proponent of the 3.5's here, recently acquiring a pair of elusive (for me) 3.6's that somehow came and went now and again until I bought a pair from Chicago. Yikes! Shipping!
All the previous models I owned I bought semi-locally, the furthest being my first pair of 3.5's which were located in Massachusetts. The others were within about 50-75 miles from my house. I was fearful of having them shipped and when 3.6's came around most were across the country - so I balked time and time again.
Then the pair of 3.6's popped up for $1300 in Chicago. I hesitated. Then I figgered it might be my last chance. They strapped 'em to pallets for $300 and...well, I finally got 'em.
As a means of relating how cool this thread is, I had a fellow member on the site contact me to say that the speakers were in excellent shape. He lives about an hour from the store that I purchased from and went to check them out himself. He had no interest in telling me that other than being a Thielista himself. Cool stuff.
Reading through this entire thread, I feel as if I know you all well by now!
My introduction to Thiels came via a beautiful pair of CS 3.5s that I quickly fell in love with. Since then I've had my eye on someday owning the elusive 3.7s. Well that chance finally came a few days ago when I bit the bullet on that black pair (Sorry, Jonandfamily... Hope you get the next pair!)
Was originally going to do a road trip from NYC to pick them up in Tulsa, but ended up having them shipped.. Yikes!.. Fingers crossed that they make the trip safely. Will report back when they arrive.
Good to see you- prof Glad that you continue to enjoy your CS 3.7 speakers. JT did make quite a musical statement w/ this model. Keep posting listening thoughts and impressions.
Man that's ruff! I can't believe they sold for that (admittedly, the lowest Tier finish but still...) I absolutely hate missing out on gear like that, which is why I often take a hit in paying more than others will if I really want it.
It's always possible to have the Thiels re-finished (that is what I'm still contemplating. Rob G at one point said he'd do it for me, but I found a local guy who will do it as well).
Not to rub it in, but last night I was listening to one of my favorite Bernard Hermann scores, Jason And The Argonauts. I love the way he wrote for those guttural sounding woodwinds, low growling oboes etc. If a speaker doesn't do those instruments right, it's immediately removed from contention. Through the 3.7s last night those instruments were glorious: huge, full-sized, rich, just vibrating the air like someone playing in front of me, all with the appropriate organic warm tone. And no matter what register they played, nowhere did they sound remotely like they were coming from a box. It's the same with voices, whether its a female singer traveling the upper registers there is zero discontinuity and never a sense of a tweeter or treble being separate or on top of the rest of the spectrum. Or a male singer singing into the chesty range - which on many speakers gets into that zone that excites speaker resonances or cross-over issues etc, where suddenly you start to pick up the lower notes as being augmented in some fashion. Not the Thiels. No matter where the voice travels, it remains perfectly rendered, organically full, continuous, and without any box or resonant presence at all.
Auditioning other speakers, even newer ones, only make me come back to marvel at what Jim achieved with the 3.7s!
All - I received confirmation that Mr. Rob Gillum is alive and well at Thiel Customer Service Kentucky. Open for business as well. He is ready to offer parts, restoration and service for our speakers. Additionally, he is soon to accomplish 30 years with Thiel Audio with no signs of slowing down.
Man, I almost had the Thiel 3.7s that were listed recently (type
lis8790g in Audiogon search). We were working on how to get them from Tulsa to Birmingham before I made my final offer, but he sold them on eBay before we finalized. He told me that he sold them for $2500 to a guy in New York who was having them crated and freighted for $953. Even though they were my least favorite color- matte black, I would have driven the 1300 mile round trip for $2500. I guess if I were sure that I would like the 3.7s more than my 3.6s, then I would jump on these deals quicker.
sorry to read about your tweeter situation. Rob Gillum is in charge of parts and service for Thiel. He can be reached at phone number; 615-866-2290 or rgillum@thielaudio.com
Please keep us posted as you contact Customer Service. Report your experience w/ Mr. Gillum as well. Hope this is helpful to you.
linnlingo and oblgny- it would be interesting to learn the number of people employed at the Kentucky facility. I will attempt to gather more information on Rob and his situation. More to follow.
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