Thiel Owners

Jafant, It’s been over two years since this thread started, did you get an amp yet?

@tmsrdg I can't even find the name of the person who compared all of those. What is their experience? What is their system? What are their biases and preferences? IOW, how credible are they and how do we translate those words in ways that help us know which caps should be on our short list?

We get to "know" the hi-fi reviewers by reading their words and comparing that to what we experience when listening to the same product. Not much help for that in the case of these caps. One piece of credible info is that Jim Thiel and his team chose the Clarity SA for the CS2.4SE. Too bad we don't know what they compared it to. Also, Tom Thiel is steering us towards Clarity and Mundorf. One other brand that piques my interest is Cornell Dubilier but not sure if they make caps with the correct values for this purpose.

In the end, I might just go with what Rob Gillum recommends. I'm hoping he'll have a kit with all the parts, schematic, and DIY instructions.

Beetlemania,

I looked at this link http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html too. Right -- how does this guy have the time, etc to review all these!? But it was interesting to read the various descriptions. I was a little wary of the "warm" sound described for the Clarity ESA and others. I don't want or like added warmth. I'm a classical musician, around live acoustic all the time in vastly differing venues. What I love about the Thiels is the clarity and ability to accurately reproduce timbre and transients. I don't want any of that rolled off. I realize that some (many) people actually like a warmer sound. Not me.

Tom,
You wrote "Regarding outboard crossovers, tread lightly. The crossover network works in an environment of the woofer magnetic field and the close proximity between various crossover inductors as well as vibration."

In my conversations with Rob on this, he said that size was indeed an issue for internal placement (this was re the 3.7), and that if one really wanted the best caps this would have be be an outboard mounting. Are you saying to forget about an outboard mod?

Great news to hear!

I am not expert on what manufacturing moved to China and when; I have not been involved with the company since the mid 1990s. At that time the only off-shore components were some European electronic components. My general impression is that the hi-fi music products were always assembled in Lexington, although some parts, including drivers, were made partly or wholly in China. Home theater products were made at increasing levels in China, more so after Jim's death in 2009. Testing and QC remained in Lexington throughout. These are my opinions developed from various conversations, but are subject to correction.

I know from other involvements that it has become increasingly difficult to impossible to source many sophisticated components from North America / Europe due to changing market conditions.

Note, my PowerPoints are late-date manufacture from China.

Tom, did *all* the manufacturing move to China? I recall reading years ago that the round cap on the CS3.7 had to be made in China because of quality issues. I didn't realize until recently that the drivers were also sourced from China. And, now, you're saying that the PowerPoint drivers were made in China. What happened in Lexington? Is all of this on the new owners?

I researched the caps as needed here, and there are probably newer better caps since 2011, though for a price.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

I gave a short look at this link. How does this guy have time and money to compare all of these, especially given the burn-in time? That top of the line Duelund looks interesting. Some of those sell for north of $800. Even if the OEM price is one-half of that, that would probably add $10,000 retail to put those in a pair of speakers!

The writer quite liked the Clarity CMR and some of the Mundorfs. A DIYer with money could get carried away . . .

sdecker et al, it is important to keep the cap values consistent with the original design. Judging by your description, the 1uF bypass caps were left in place and the main caps replaced with SAs, thus keeping the total paralleled capacitance correct. Regarding outboard crossovers, tread lightly. The crossover network works in an environment of the woofer magnetic field and the close proximity between various crossover inductors as well as vibration. When finalizing a model, some values were sometimes slightly tweeked to adjust for that in-cabinet environment compared to the open-air development environment. Sharing our experiences will help in learning this subtle landscape without the resources of a full development lab.

I am hot-rodding my PowerPoint 1.2s for studio monitors and must outboard the crossovers due to insufficient interior cabinet volume for the larger upgrade parts. I expect performance improvements from the combination of outboard mounting, greater proximity isolation (increased footprint), lack of woofer EM field and vibrations, point to point wiring, six nines hookup and choke wire . . . in addition to the higher-performance caps. Note, my PowerPoints are late-date manufacture from China. Although care was taken to spec first-rate parts, I can't know if the Chinese manufacturer used parts as sophisticated as Thiel in-house manufacture did.  I am upgrading with all original-Thiel parts and techniques. I will journal my results by comparing an unmodified pair with the modified pair in the same system.

I’d post pictures if I could...

I'm hoping Rob Gillum will offer upgrade kits for DIYers as well as in-house upgrades. Ideally, this would include how-to pics or, even, video links on his website.

@sdecker Wow, that is *super* helpful information. Thanks! Would it be easier to remove the entire boards and replace the caps with the crossovers out of the cabinets? Your post got me thinking that a "real" modder would probably mount the crossovers in an external box (ala Avalon Ascent) to completely isolate it from cabinet vibrations. LOL - that's not me :)

(a 27uF direct replacement and a 10uF || 3uF = 13uF)

From Tom Thiel, Dave Garretson and the image I linked elsewhere in this thread, the CS2.4SE coax values are 28 and 14 uF. Are the 27 and 13 numbers for the original CS2.4 or did you decide to alter the values?

Now the icing on the cake if for another high end audio company to buy the remaining assets and patents and continue developing the Coherent Source line of speakers.
Fingers crossed!

While I'm posting for the first time in years, I can vouch for Rob Gillum's excellent solo work.  I had a CS2.4 coax go silent on me a couple years ago, long after Thiel-proper was gone.  To assure consistency, Rob had me send him both my coax drivers, which he rebuilt from the ground up using the latest adhesives and various tweaks developed since their 2004 inception, and their later (relatively) mass-produced manufacture. 

The sound of my 'old' coaxes was so firmly embedded in my ears that once the rebuilt ones broke in, there was no question I was hearing a purer, faster, more delicate sound, with better left-right matching too.  Again, not night and day, but another notable step up to this long-term 2.4 listener.  And the hope that these drivers will last 'forever.'

I was always on A’gon years ago, but brought back now with the final death of Thiel, Rob Gillum’s phoenix rising, and XO questions.

I replaced the caps in my CS2.4 in 2011 and can clearly answer the questions asked so far. Only way in is by removing the passive radiator with their unusually-sized allen driver. Two separate circuit boards, for the low-frequencies on the base and the HFs on the back (above the binding posts). Unless you don’t solder, little to be concerned with because everything is so BIG and the circuit boards (in at least my earlier units) are made of wood. Best access is with speakers on their back. But even then, expect some contortions to all your work through a 7x10" opening.

Thiel sent me a schematic of the crossover, and I believed Thiel's hours of assessments that the ClarityCaps SA gave the best sound. But I one-upped the 2.4SE with the next-higher model, the ClarityCap ESA. I replaced only these caps as they’re the only ones in-line with the coax actually passing signal, the others are paralleled for impedance matching and frequency contouring.

I researched the caps as needed here, and there are probably newer better caps since 2011, though for a price.
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

and I bought them from PartsConneXion (a 27uF direct replacement and a 10uF || 3uF = 13uF). PCX will also match each pair of caps, a big plus for speaker consistency and imaging even with +-3% rated caps.
 I also bypassed them with the then-recommended Vishay MKP1837.

Take a picture of the stock crossover before you start pulling it apart.

I cut the Axons out but kept 1" of their leads to attach the new caps to, and then had to smoosh the larger caps in their place, snuggling them up around surrounding components. I used ShoeGoo to hold them in place to the base and/or adjacent caps to buffer them from vibrations. Once everything is laid out to your satisfaction only then fire up the soldering iron and complete the job. Just be VERY careful how you place your soldering iron as it’s very near a giant woofer magnet and a hot soldering iron being pulled through your woofer cone could make for a very bad day. After you’ve done one speaker, take a break for awhile. When you’re fresh, you’ll do the second speaker in half the time.

It’ll take a long time for these caps to break in to the point where they sound better than what you took out, so put the FM white noise or CD player on repeat 24/7. Having become so familiar with my 2.4s stock, I can confidently say these new caps give a greater purity to the coax, greater air, delicacy and inner detail. Also, better imaging due to tighter cap tolerances around the crossover frequency. Not hugely night and day, but making a good speaker that much better for very little money and time.

I’d post pictures if I could...

I am already spreading the word to Thiel owners.

Good idea. I just pasted Tom's post over at the asylum. We'd be smart to do what we can to support Rob's venture!

Excellent news about Rob keeping the support. I am already spreading the word to Thiel owners.

Happy Friday - ALL.

This is a really fantastic outcome following the disastrous dragging of the Thiel name through the mud with the mismanagement since the takeover. The fact that Rob is looking to offer upgrade kits is just the best news of 2018, and it's only the 1st of February. Excited.

Great news.  I have no interest in ever trying to upgrade my 3.7s since any significant upgrade is likely to be way more money than I'm willing to spend.  On the other hand, I could see myself having an upgrade done to the crossovers or something like that.

Excellent news. Thanks for keeping us informed.

So great to hear about Rob's business!

Outstanding!

This is very encouraging. I am very interested in the upgrade kit for my CS3.6s and possibly my CS1.2s. I have a little experience in soldering, and I certainly do not want to risk either causing damage or risk degrading the sound quality. I look forward to hearing more information on the process of upgrading.

He intends to develop upgrade kits for any Thiel products to meet demand. Other original Thiel operatives and myself intend to pitch in to help him succeed.

This is awesome! Thanks for posting this, Tom.

Guys, it's official that Rob Gillum has bought the service business from the Nashville owners of Thiel Audio, who are officially closing. Rob needs a couple of weeks to transition. He will have a new phone number and email address which he will post on this forum when he's back in the saddle.

Rob has been with Thiel since 1988 and has done nearly every job during that time. As you have experienced, he is a first-rate guy on all fronts, and he will appreciate any and all support that you can send his way. He intends to develop upgrade kits for any Thiel products to meet demand. Other original Thiel operatives and myself intend to pitch in to help him succeed.

Thank you all for your ongoing enthusiastic support of the Thiel brand.

Good to see you here- solobone22

keep us posted as you massage those speakers into your system.
Happy Listening!

Picked up a pair of 1.6's a few months back and have been hooked.  This past weekend a pair of mint 3.6's came up at a local hifi shop.  They are now in my living room and I couldn't be happier with them.

I haven't spent much time with mixing and matching.

Speakers: Thiel 3.6
Amplifier: Krell TAS (not bridged)
Preamp: B&K PT5
CD/SACD: Sony S570
Cables: Chord

@marqmike Thanks for those posts. I think I’ll call Rob Gillum before I proceed. But I do want to look at the crossover to see if it’s a job I’m comfortable with. At a minimum, I’d like to at least take the crossover out at home to save on shipping costs and not risk cabinet damage during shipment.

Thank You for the information -marqmike

I know for a fact that I do not possess the skill-level to take speakers/cross-overs apart. For those of you guys so inclined, stand up, and be counted!

We need more modders of speakers and gear in our hobby.

Happy Listening!

I am thinking those big professional looking solder mounds where I think six connections are on the trace board a little to intimidating for me. I can solder an individual connection extremely well. I would probably be better off in sending my crossovers in to Rob to care for that. The main reason I would use him is his quality of work is easily up there with the standard of Thiel speakers.  We are in good hands with him. So I figure for a little shipping get it done as the quality would be from the factory.

To get to my crossovers in 2.4's I unscrewed the passive radiator. Then carefully I let the top nose sit down in the cross brace behind it and that allowed the bottom nose to be free to come up out of the speaker cabinet. Because everything fits so precise you want to be careful. And it is a little counter intuitive when you look at it and then do it. Be real careful not to pull or wiggle anything very strongly it all looks kind of delicate in there. It does come apart relatively easily. Anyway when you remove the passive radiator the crossover is easily seen and reachable. 

Always good to see you here- dgarretson
Thank You for the valuable information regarding Clarity Caps. Easily, you are my "go to" guy. I hope you and Mr. Rob Gillum can acquire and stock these cross-over parts soon. Happy New Year.

Happy Listening!

Thanks, Mr. Thiel
I might pop one open this weekend and see what's involved as a DIY, see if I can find the values on the woofer section.

beetle, it is likely that my CS2.2 cabinet design persisted to the CS2.4. If so, the enclosure bottom dismounts with screws from the bottom of the base to expose the crossover mounted on the inside of the base.

@tmsrdg Thanks for that info. Looking again on Madisound in the Clarity Cap MR 400V (is that enough voltage?), I can get to 28 uF with a 27 and 1 uF in parallel. For 14 uF I need the 12 uF and two 1 uF caps.

But given that I already have the Clarity Cap SA version in the coax, I should start with the woofer section.

@dgarretson Thanks for the reply. So, are the CS2.4 values available to the public? I will contact Rob Gillum for more info.

@tomthiel Thanks for the clarification. This pic
http://www.hifishock.org/gallery/speakers/thiel/cs2-4se-2-thiel/
shows "Jim Thiel Signature" versions SA 28uF 630V and SA 14uF 630V. I cannot see a 1uF cap in parallel. The values on the woofer section are not evident.

I did not see these values online at Madiscound or Partsconnexion. Maybe I didn't look closely enough?

Also, is the crossover accessed thru the passive radiator or bottom panel?

I engaged in an email exchange with Rob last week re upgrading the caps on my 3.7s.  He told me "To upgrade the CS3.7, a 76uf, 151uf, and a 16uf cap would need to be installed in each cabinet." I was unable to find these values. He then suggested "The values I listed are the values for upgrading the CS3.7. It is possible that the capacitors may have to be purchased with the values described (NB: in the catalogs). For example: The 76uf CSA cap may have to be summed from a 75uf CSA and a 1uf CSA cap. The 151uf cap may have to be summed from two 75uf and a 1uf. The 16uf CSA cap may also have to be summed from a 15uf CSA and a 1uf CSA."

There you have it. I'd like to do this, but do not have the technical acumen. If Thiel Service offered this, I'd jump. Also, there a lots of varieties of caps out there, and it's a little scary for me that I might alter the speakers in a way I did not like!

As always, Thank You, or the clarification Mr. Tom Thiel-
Happy Listening!

Thanks! for sharing- beetlemania.
Dave Garretson is very informative regarding Clarity Caps and other OEM parts.
Happy Listening!

As a point of clarification, the CS2.4 tweeter feed has a 13mF PP in parallel with a 1mF Styrene to total 14mF, plus a 27mF PP with a 1mF S > 28mF total. I believe those even-integer values are available on the market.

@dgarretson

Owners of standard CS2.4 speakers may be interested to know that the only internal difference that makes a 2.4SE is the use of ClarityCap SA film capacitors. DIYers can make this upgrade or better by substituting the more recently introduced ESA range.

. I don't have a schematic, but during that time Thiel was purchasing 14uf and 28uf values. They may have been bypassing these with 1uf polystyrene caps. You should be able to confirm this by inspecting the crossover.

Since then we have surpassed SA by two generations-- ESA and now CSA. For that application I suggest CSA/250V or, space permitting, our top CMR/400V model.

You should inspect the board to be sure. The configuration is likely 14uf in parallel with 1uf(=15uf) and 28uf in parallel with 1uf(=29uf). If this is the case, then you could (1) replace the 14uf and 28uf values and leave the stock 1uf polystryrene caps in place, or (2) replace both the high values and the paralleled 1uf caps with 15uf and 29uf.

It is advisable to look carefully at the circuit before ordering anything.

Looking at Partsconnexion and Madisound, I don't see these values from Clarity (or Mundorf), especially as a close-up of the CS2.3SE crossover indicates 630 V. Are Thiel's values a special order?

Sorry for the sloppy writing. I meant that the problems of inferior caps cause those distortions which are mitigated and clarified by more nearly perfect capacitors. 
TT

Thanks for the post, Tom
I'm very excited to try cap upgrades. Without further information, I'll probably try the latest Clarity caps that will fit in the 2.4 enclosure (which I have yet to open). Probably try some Cardas solder. Probably be weeks or months before I have time to do this,