Thiel Owners

Good to see you- corvette01-
the only class-D gear that I have ever auditioned was Primare separates w/ Vienna Acoustics speakers over 10 years ago. The pairing made for a very good demo. There is a CS 3.7 owner, on a different forum, that uses Rogue Audio M-180 amps in his system. No, have not heard any class-D gear w/ Thiel loudspeakers. Thank You for the suggestion.
Happy Listening!

Good to see you here- luizfcoimbra
Much Thanks! for telling your Audio journey. I must say that you are the only owner using Argento cabling. I have read reports/reviews about the brand over the years. It has been a long time since I heard B.A.T. gear. I cannot fault you for moving up to  Magico. Keep writing your musical thoughts/impressions.
Happy Listening!

Jafant,
I  tried a extra Nuprime class d amp that I have with my 3.7s for the heck of it,and was very impressed with the overall sound and the bass!I might want to sell my Xpa-1s and go class d.My 3.7s seemed happy with class d.Have you ever used a class d with your Thiels.

Hey guys,

I’m chiming in at somebody’s request (after having mentioned Thiel speakers in some other post). I’ve started my hi-fi journey listening to my dad’s Altec Lansing A7’s. I’m 35 now and that’s what I grew up listening to until I was 10 or 12 when that system was disassembled and the Altecs were sold to help us go through a financial crisis here in Brazil.

The first system I could put together many years later was built around Thiel SCS 4 bookshelves. I had a budget (though very nice) Xindak integrated amp, Synergistic Alpha Sterling X2 speaker cables and interconnects, a cheap Musical Fidelity M1 DAC (that’s still with me for I don’t care much about digital) and a Music Hall 9.1 table, with the Project Carbon tonearm, a Dynavector Karat D3 and a Hanss phono.

The SCS’s were replaced by 1.7’s shortly after their launch, the Xindak was replaced by a BAT VK-300x integrated, and later on, quite quickly, they were replaced by 2.7’s in a great deal.

Also gone was the integrated in favor of a VK-53se and VK-255se. Organic cables (Argento’s bottom line) also replaced the Synergistic entry level ones, and the front-end was also progressively upgraded from the Music Hall to Kuzma Stabi S and then Kuzma Stabi Ref with the 4 Point tonearm and a Transfiguration Phoenix S cart.

More recently the BAT’s were replaced with Zanden’s lovely 3100 pre and 8120 power and now it’s time to see the Thiels go...

I very much regret Jim’s passing and everything that’s happening with the company. I’ve never owned any loudspeaker other than Thiel up
to this point, but I’m settling with Magicos now for the lack of a Thiel option to upgrade the 2.7’s.

Unfortunately, they’re not up there with the best anymore (Magico, Rockport, TAD and Tidal, in my book), but I’ve had many many enjoyable years with my Thiels and contrary to what’s somehow spread, I never found them overly bright, harsh, or cold.

Much on the opposite, the Thiel and BAT pairing has been wonderful, very warm, laid-back and authoritative. I have always been impressed by Thiel’s soundstaging, resolution, transparecy and well-controled bass.

I wonder how the 2.7’s drivers would sound with top-notch internal wiring and crossover parts, as well as in a quieter cabinet, but I guess I will never have this answer and that’s a shame. They have been a great company for the last 4 years or so, firstly because I loved them, secondly because I had to spend so much (say 3 or 4 times their price) to have a meaningful upgrade that it really took me a while to move forward for obvious reasons.

They will be collected by my dealer this week (as part of payment for Magico’s S5 MkII) and I’m sad to see them go. I would have loved to have them replaced by something that never saw the light of day due to Jim’s passing.

Incidentally, would anybody know if he had something in the oven like a 7.3?

Thank you guys and long live to your Thiels! I would keep the 2.7’s if I had the means (and the space) to build another room and system. They would be paired with BAT’s amps or some warm SS. I heard them powered by Pass gear (X.250 and the two chassis pre-amp), by the way, and didn’t like it at all. There was a LOT of slam, punch and resolution, but images were artificially supersized and the sound was overall fatiguing and not as refined as with BAT gear.

They work well with Zanden gear, though not as nice as with BAT in the long-term. Thiel's coaxial driver is a bit too hot with the Zanden. Argento cables (I have the Serenity line) works like a charm!!! 

Best,

Luiz

Thiel Audio used to suggest only using "Endust" for keeping cabinets clean.

The veneers have a bit of a perfumy smell, presumably from the previous owner's home and I have a sensitive nose. I might start with just a damp microfiber cloth. I'll look at Endust and some other options, thanks.

Beetlemania,
The Les Pauls you mentioned are mine.I was going to sell them to go back to B&W,but decided to hold on to them for awhile?Now I have B&Ws upstairs and my 3.7s downstairs.Working well this way!My B&W system is more for movies anyway.

thanks to those responding to my posts about the drivers failing.  both times it was the midrange part of the driver that failed but of course the entire unit had to be replaced which is not hard to do.   the first time was only about two months after i had the speakers so it may just have been defective from the get go.  the second time was about two year into use and by then i had acquired the fantastic PS Audio BHK amp, so i know it was not clipping from lack of power.  I play them loud but not really ever above 85 db as measured by the app on my phone.  i played the older Thiel speakers just as loud an had no problems with the 2.4's for the seven years i had them.  i had the 2.2's for about 16 years and did lose one tweeter but that was it.  I do have one backup just in case,  but wonder how long Rob will be able to take care of us.   

Another fine evening with the CS2.4SE. They sound even better tonight, maybe because everything is warmed up after the ride in the FedEx truck. I played a bit with location and toe-in, found a spot I like and put the outriggers on.

Other than zero audible output below 30-32 cycles, I don't hear any notable shortcomings from this speaker! Near SOTA neutrality, resolution, transparency, and soundstaging. Can't ask for more at this price point.

Also: are the drivers easy enough to replace once you receive the part?

I replaced a tweeter in my CS1.6s. If you can work a screwdriver and soldering iron, you're in business.

ronkent,

That sounds a bit worrying, as I’m probably making the 2.7 my main speaker.

No problems with mine so far (and it’s second hand, it was probably played even louder by the previous owner).

Though I don’t play them very loud when I’m in the room, I do crank them somewhat to listen to them from down the hallway. So far they perform like champs. But your post does make me nervous!

I better buy some replacement drivers as back ups.   Though I've never in my life blown a driver in any speaker I've owned, so hopefully that mean my listening habits are generally meek enough to keep my Thiels safe.

Was it the tweeter, or the mid, or both that you had problems with? What happened? Do you listen really loud?

Also: are the drivers easy enough to replace once you receive the part?

I bought a very early set of used 3.7s back in 2012.  Serial numbers in the low forties.  I blew the mid in the first couple of months, thanks a lot Beethoven.  I took it to the dealer, they sent it to Thiel and I got a brand new mid/tweeter back free of charge.  Been going strong the last 5+ years.  I went from a single Cambridge 840 amp to two and that may be the difference.  Maybe one didn't have enough power and was clipping.  I also have a pair of 2 2s that I bought 7 or 8 years ago that have never had a problem.  They've been used every day for a while now.  They're great.

as a Thiel owner of over 30 years,  starting with the CS 2 and ending with the 2.7's,  i can attest to how great they  really are.   however i have had issues with the mid/tweeter drivers of the 2.7's,  and have had to replace two of them.  Luckily they were covered under warranty and Rob graciously sent me new ones.  I also purchased a spare as you never know what is going to happen with them.  has anyone else had issues with the drivers of the 2.7's.  up until these speakers,  I only had to replace one tweeter (in the 2.2's) in all the preceding years.

I continue to pinch myself with luck that I managed to bag a pair of the 2.7s in my coveted ebony finish.  They are just about the most beautiful pair of speakers I've seen, and aesthetics count a lot for me.

Before getting the 2.7s I was just about to start the process of having my 3.7s re-finished in a better color for my room.  Though I would likely have liked the results, I'm glad I didn't get around to is, because selling a custom finish pair is generally harder than selling one with a standard finish.

Wow! Well, I'll consider myself lucky despite the less than ideal condition of my pair's cabinets. I seriously thought about just getting a standard pair and modding them but really wanted the outriggers and I dig the "vermilion maple".

Yes, please let us know about driver availability. Cross-overs can be repaired/upgraded, even by a dummy like me, but not so much the drivers!

beetlemania,

as reported per saffron_boots, only 91 pairs of the CS 2.4SE were produced.  Hopefully, the remaining drivers, cross-overs and other critical parts are available via customer service/Mr. Rob Gillum in Lexington KY?

I will attempt to get an affirmation on this important matter.
Happy Listening!

Looks like there was a Les Paul - Gibson sunburst pair of CS3.7 for sale last fall. What a great looking speaker!

OTOH, I've read that the CS3.7 (and by extension 2.7?) were made in China, both the cabinets and drivers. I recall the delays Thiel had going from prototype to production with the CS3.7 . . . I'm super glad my Thiels, including the drivers, were made in Lexington.

you and me share one of the last pairs built.

Did they not make the full 150 pair production?

bcarr38-

a quick check over on US Audio Mart, I spotted a pair of CS 3.7 speakers in CA dated from October 2017. The listing still appears active and available for purchase.  Hope you can grab them!

Happy Listening!

Very nice! beetlemania.
you and me share one of the last pairs built.  As far as I know a simple microcloth is fine for cleaning.  I do not believe that the special finish requires polishing. If I find out otherwise, I will message you.

Happy Listening!

Good to see you- bcarr38
good advice from beetlemania. Watch this site, eBay, Craigslist,  and US Audio Mart daily.  Funny thing, prior to the holiday season there was a pair on here and eBay.  As always, if i spot a pair, I will post for you guys.

Happy Listening!

geeze bcarr38, I wish I could help you by hurrying up my decision on whether I'm going to sell my 3.7s. :-)

I'm trying out subwoofers again with my 2.7s this weekend, I hope.

@jafant I got them from The Music Room near Denver. 163 and 164. What do you use to clean and treat the veneers?

@bcarr38 The best single place to check is hifishark. Type in the model you want and it will show you a compilation of listings from Audiogon, eBay, Audiomart, and many others. Plus, you can review previous listings and get an idea of the market value of the speaker you want.

You might consider the CS2.7s that are for sale here.

I am interested in locating a pair of Thiel CS 3.7 speakers.  I have been looking for about three weeks on Audiogon and the internet and have not seen anything.  Any thoughts on places to loo or how to go about finding a pair.  I have a pair of CS 2.3s with upgraded coax speaker which sound great but I am interested in upgrading.  Thanks.

Happy Friday- All.

Very sweet! beetlemania
where did you find and purchase your 2.4 SE speakers?
What serial numbers do you own?

Last speaker- well reported.
Happy Listening!

I've had plenty of speakers in my room, of all different designs, and the Thiel speakers (CS6, 2.7, 3.7) have all produced the best bass I've heard in my room - the tightest, most tonal, least boxy, most focused and punchy.  I love Thiel bass! 

Looking forward to your review on Thiel speakers- beetlemania

Well, you've already read my opinion on the CS1.6 . . . Today, I received my CS2.4SE. They're a bit rougher cosmetically than the seller disclosed but the drivers are flawless.  I've listened to a couple of dozen songs - I would still be listening instead of typing if my wife had not gone to bed early due to illness.

I've heard many really good speakers over the years, in different rooms with different electronics. It's tough to directly compare under such circumstance. So, most of my comments will be relative to the speaker I've lived (and loved) with for the past 10 years, the Vandersteen 2Ce Signature II. First off, I doff my hat to the Vandy's. I still think they are the best speaker under $5K, a flat out bargain at $2750. I suspect I can only notice it's slight deficiencies because my electronics are now close to top-shelf (Ayre AX-5 Twenty, Ayre QB-9 DSD, and Cardas cabling).

I wanted to upgrade because I remembered, going from the CS1.6 to the 2Ce, that the Vandies had a veiled quality in the midrange. This was almost completely cured by getting high-quality cables and utilizing its bi-wiring capacity. Still, with my recently obtained AX-5 I wondered what the Vandies might be obscuring. Well, not much. The CS2.4s are more transparent but not by as much as I had guessed. I stand by earlier opinions that the 2Ce gives you a fat helping of high-end sound at not much more than mid-fi pricing.

The first thing that struck me about the CS2.4 was the tight and well-defined bass. This might be the parameter wherein the Thiel most clearly separates itself from the 2Ce. I was hearing bass detail that I've only heard on speakers many multiple times the price of the 2Ce. That said, the 2Ce does reach a bit lower. The deep organ tone on Tracy Chapman's "3000 miles" was notably truncated by the CS2.4. On the other hand, this was the  only song I played wherein I noticed the Thiels limits. It had plenty of bass for the other songs I sampled including some Peter Gabriel, typically replete with bass and percussion.

The CS2.4SE is also more resolved than the 2Ce. Decay of chimes, bells, and triangles is superb via the Thiels. Subtle vocal inflections of backing singers are more apparent. On at least a couple of songs I sampled, I became aware of subtle percussions from shakers and the like that had previously gone unnoticed. *This* is what I wanted in an upgrade! I'm quite happy after the first evening.

Still, I very much doubt that the Thiel's advantages over the 2Ce would be notable without top-notch electronics. For those whose budget cannot fit a killer amp and source, get yourself a pair of the latest 2Ce Sig IIs and don't look back. For me? I think these Thiels might be my last speaker. 

Kept my purchased new CS 2's for 18 years.

Well, I still have my old 02 Thiels which I acquired from my wife in '93.  And she had them since '82 or so.  They have certainly proved to be too satisfying to sell.

Nice! ranchhand1
nothing wrong w/ owning and using older gear- especially, if the system synergy is right.
Happy Listening!

Hey jafant,
Other components are low budget conscious and mostly older as well. 15 yr old Rotel pre-amp, Philips cd 80 and my "venerable" Hafler 9180 circa 1994. Still have the D'Agostino satellite/sub set. They sound good considering I purchased them in 1977! The Thiel's out pace them. Once I buy something I usually keep it. Sold off Bryston and Rega in the past however.   

Hey prof,
yes! conceivable! :) I certainly "lusted" after many other speakers and amps but being focused on investing for retirement centered my discretionary budget on frugal. Now pleasantly retired these past the years I am glad I remained sensibile.

Yes robinbarbour, The Thiel's were are very good investment considering the random and largely uninformed manner in which I decided to purchase them!

ranchhand,

Someone here being satisfied with a speaker that long?

Inconceivable ;-)

robinbarbour-
any new gear headed your way in 2018?

Happy Listening!

Good to see you  again- ranchhand1

very nice- what other gear is in your system?
Happy Listening!

ranchhand1

Always good to see someone from the earlier years. Need more of us!
So, pretty good investment after all the enjoyment of 30+ years...

My second post on this topic because I enjoy my Thiel's so much.....
How I came to purchase my Thiel CS2's in 1986.  
I essentially have zero knowledge of audio engineering or design. I have always purchased what I figured might be "good sounding" components based mostly on what I could afford which wasn't much. 
By the mid 1980's I wanted to upgrade my speakers. My D'Agostino satellite/sub s sounded "good" but I wanted a taller floor standing speaker. One that by it's sheer size would be impressive. And oh maybe sounded "better." See, I am a novice....:) 
I passed on Rogers LS3/5a and Watson Labs 10 in 1977 due to price. Listened to both. They produced involving seductive sound...wow what a loss. I would still have the Rogers to this day has I purchased perhaps not the Watson's as they had some gas filled sections that over time probably would have leaked out.  
So here I am in the mid 1980's looking for a BIG speaker I could afford via an annual audio components buyer's guide!  
Spent weeks pouring over specs and reviews settling on Thiel CS2. 
An audio shop in Berkeley several miles from where I lived  carried Thiel.
A brief listening session was all it took for me to place an order. Sound was detailed, natural and not fatiguing. Never had one problem with them. Drivers as are the cabinets in excellent condition. 
They are playing as I write this. 

Seems inevitable that they will fold. Why did they ever bring on a new designer that threw out pretty much every one of Jim Thiel's principles? Crazy! I hope that one of the employees will buy out the legacy parts and continue to offer service and repairs (altho' this may make that person a target for people demanding warranty repairs).

I doubt anyone has been expecting this version of Thiel to stay in business much longer.

Speaking of what has become of Thiel, they haven't had any activity on facebook since 12/16.  The website says 40% off of everything and that appears to be after the cut they already made to the ludicrous overpriced lifestyle products they were selling.  Has anybody heard anything more?  

Jim Thiel made some fantastic designs. In particular, some of his drivers were and still are among the best ever, IMO. I think his main shortcoming was relying almost exclusively on measurements and not so much on listening. The CS2.4SE seems to be an acknowledgement that SQ can be improved by tweaking the crossover, if not the wiring. Jim Thiel in the UltraAudio review of the CS2.4SE:

The improved resolution is not the kind of thing that shows up well in measurements; the magnitude of the difference between the CS2.4 and the CS2.4SE is more easily heard than discerned from graphs. The new capacitors allow more nuance, air, detail, and decay to be reproduced by the coaxial drive unit. This was especially evident to us when listening to recordings that contained realistic reverberation, as well as recordings where the instruments were not processed heavily.

Jim Thiel passed too soon, at the height of his abilities. It a shame to see what has become of his company. If only he had groomed an engineer to carry his legacy . . .

The only speakers I've heard that I think are better than the CS3.7 or CS7.2 are far costlier - designs from TAD, Vivid, Avalon and the Vandersteen 7 (I'm curious to hear the 5A Carbon). In the meantime, you'll be seeing me post more often here . . . I've bought a pair of Thiels, should be in my living room this time next week.

jon,

I would stay happily with my 3.7s if I didn't have to battle room ergonomic/aesthetic issues.

(Well, as my flagship speaker anyway.  I like different speakers too much to only own one, so I usually have a couple different on hand to switch in for a change).

I'm definitely of the opinion that my 3.7s are good enough for me.  They are so great that I never feel the slightest urge to upgrade and I've had them almost six years.  Part of it is that by the grace of God I'm not a neurotic audiophile anymore but mainly it's because they just don't do anything significantly wrong.

Having re-visited many of the latest speaker designs in my quest to possibly replace my Thiels, I've concluded that, especially with the 3.7s, they are conceivably "last speaker I need to own" quality.  By that I mean that at anything around their price point (I mean even when they were new) they are still competitive if not better than anything new I've heard.
The resolution seems to be at a point where you can't go much further, and they render box coloration so low that IMO most speakers are still trying to catch up, and most won't for a long time.   So in terms of performance, I'd be comfortable with the 3.7s in terms of that "what am I missing?" itch that we audiophiles get "am I missing out on some advance in resolution or otherwise?"  No, not that I've heard to a significant degree.

But of course no speaker does everything better than any other speaker. and the character of speakers are different.  I like some aspects of the 2.7 more than the 3.7 and visa versa. 

I've been re-visiting some old Thiel reviews and discussions and thus often encountering the "Thiels are brighter and thinner and more clinical sounding than most speakers" reputation.

One of the interesting contrasts between the sound of my Thiel 2.7s and the Monitor Audio and Focal speakers I auditioned recently was how much more full, organic and lush the Thiels sounded compared to those speakers - basically all the aspects people don't associated with Thiel.
It was actually the other speakers that sounded thin and reductive in comparison.

I think this is likely explained, in my case, not only as due to how Thiel's last coaxial driver design managed to be both transparent and smooth, but also to the influence of using good ol' tube amps on the Thiels, as well as adjusting their position (more straight ahead) for this type of balance...and also room placement/acoustics.

As I've mentioned before, I have sensitive ears and I can't believe how loud I'm finding myself playing the 2.7s.  The distortion is so low, the sound so smooth and easy; even though they sound lively and punchy at lower volumes, it's just more comfortable than ever in my system to turn them up and really enjoy more life-like volumes.

Both the 3.7s and the 2.7s are organic and seductive in their own way.  The 3.7s are a bit more open sounding, more delicate in detail, and get the essential softness and delicacy of the human voice really well.  The 2.7s though more incisive and dynamic both from top to bottom have a slightly "sweeter" sound in terms of frequency balance in the top end.  Not *quite* as open and airy, but still a drum rim shot will tend to sound a bit more solid in terms of transient performance.  The more alive dynamic, incisive character is balanced by a slightly more "sweet" tonal balance up top, and I think this is what makes them so addictive to me - the drive of the music keeps me pinned in my chair bopping around, but the ease of the tonal balance allows me to crank them up even louder than the 3.7s with comfort.

While the 2.7s smack around most other speakers I've demoed in terms of low box coloration, they still don't quite disappear as completely, at every frequency range, as the 3.7s.  There are some pieces for instance by the Los Angeles Guitar Quartet that have always been a complete marvel on the 3.7s.  Just press play and 4 guitarists suddenly show up in the room, life sized, as if the speakers aren't there.  And despite that they are all playing similar guitars, every guitar is perfectly untangled from the other in the mix.   Not as much on the 2.7s where the size of the guitars is a tiny bit reduced, and there is just a bit of blur in certain areas - some resonance I think - that misses the perfection of the illusion achieved by the bigger 3.7s.  On one piece the guitars are accompanied by an occasional metal triangle "ting" and that "ting" on the 3.7s is floated in it's own separate, airy space more than the 2.7s.

Another area of give and take between them is string tone.  The 3.7s have always been fabulous at rendering the detail of bow-on-string as well as the body of strings.  But if I had any criticism it's that the sheen of strings on 3.7s is rarely quite as beautiful as I now strings can be - just a bit of a chalky quality vs a silky quality, in absolute terms.  This is one area where the Joseph Audio Perspective speakers I auditioned in home exceeded the 3.7s - a truly grainless upper register that gave strings that present but silky quality.  (Though I still think the 3.7s had a bit more detail).  

The 2.7s are a bit more similar to the Joseph speakers in that regard: string tone is more routinely beautiful on the 2.7s than on the 3.7s to my ear.  I do think this is at the slight expense of not quite the same detail, but the trade off is musically a fairly happy one.

I'm experimenting with subwoofers with the 2.7s and initial results imply that the 2.7 imaging becomes more like the 3.7s in terms of separation of instruments, with a subwoofer involved.  But I'm trying to do it in a way that doesn't alter the midrange/high frequency voice of the 2.7s that I love so much.   Next weekend I'm receiving a JL Audio CR-1 crossover, among the best analog crossovers available for dialing in subs, and hopefully that will help.

Anyway...those are my current musings.

I'm very happy with my vintage Classe ca-300 with my 3.7s.

Arvin...
I have owned three ARC preamps - LS2, LS2B, and an LS 3 - each attained at prices that were extremely reasonable.  (The LS2B being the only tubed version.)

At such prices they represent truly remarkable values given the build quality, performance, and sonics. Though I never experienced any issues with any one of them, the fact that most can still be serviced by ARC is quite comforting.  

One thing that needs to be said about moving up the Thiel food chain that perhaps isn’t obvious to people, including myself;  as you pass the 3.5 model things change remarkably.  The 3.6 ISN’T the 3.5 on steroids. It’s a very different speaker with very different characteristics, typically Thiel in the respects to clarity, soundstage, etc.,  but way more emphasized in the midrange with perhaps a softening of the highs.  IMHO. My personal experience with this genesis has me missing the 3.5’s sonics - then again I’ve owned three pairs of them. Methinks the 3.6 model require lots of current/power to show their best while the 3.5 model requires less. 

I’m an “audiot”, new word!  With rare exception most of my gear has been purchased used, right here on Audiogon. Now a five year member, my chain of sales/purchases runs 9 pages long.  I’ve had more stuff in this time than I had during the previous four decades - and all because I found Thiel. 

True.  I’ve never before experienced a speaker that does everything so damn well.  My b&m shop had me listening to some Wilson model not too long ago and while I liked them, $16k was so far removed from my sensibilities that I wouldn’t even if I could. And they still weren’t Thiel to boot. 

You’ll be quite happy with the ARC LS7 if my experience can mirror your’s. The ONLY reason why I sold/purchased etc was to gain a remote control to remove getting up and walking the 12 feet to change the volume.  I’ve since deconstructed my separates setup with a BAT integrated. I grew weary of all the wires and whatnot.  Were I to return to separates again ARC amps/preamps would be at the top of my list. 

Hmmm...come to think of it I’ve never had an ARC power amp.  Off to the listings!