Thiel Owners

Thos, Replacement models are generated to push the art, grow the company and generate new interest. The old products aren't really old or defective, in fact in many ways Thiel designs out-do many contemporary products. The 2.3 and 2.4 are conceptually the same product, the product that Jim wanted to design in the late 1970s when we figured out that phase coherence was our passion. We knew from the beginning that a coincident driver was the end-game, but we were an internally capitalized skunk-works and it took all that elapsed time to develop the 2.3 coax. The 2.4 was the next generation, with a smaller diameter midrange. But the woofer, crossovers and cabinets are very similar, as is the sound quality. Many folks think the 2.3 presented a more cohesive projection than the 3.6, due to the coax driver. FYI, the 2-series always followed the next generation of the 3-series and benefited from upper-model knowledge and technologies. The 2.3 followed the 3.6.1 (internal nomenclature) which included some driver upgrades.

I concur with Ron that you might best keep loving your 2.3s. One of these days when you are ready, a higher-order or newer model might be in order. And when the time is right, I hope to provide significant sonic upgrades to several of the classic models, applying newer component technologies.

I don't know when or why Thiel abandoned its first tag-line . . . there was some legal bullying . . . and Linn added a word to our motto as an upstage tactic. From the 03 in 1978 until the mid 80s our motto was        "For the Love of Music".  Carry on.

thank Tom for the input on the PS amps.  I use the stereo 250 and it is a killer amp in so many ways.   from all i have read both here and in the audio mags,   i think PS and Bryston are probably the top two "affordable" solid state units, while the new D'Agostino amps are supposed to be incredible but high dollar.  Not familiar with tube stuff as much,   but i know VTL is great gear and might be worth looking into. 

welcome thosb.  from my experience as a Thiel owner (since 1985 and 5 different pair),   i would not go from 2.3's to 2.4's as it probably is not worth the effort,  though i had the 2.4's and they are terrific.  wait and find a pair of 2.7's as that would be a big jump in sound quality.  

And here's a question - I have the CS2.3s, and of course much of the discussion on this forum focuses on other models, but I assume based on specs alone my 2.3s are fairly similar to the 2.4s, meaning hopefully much of the discussion is still pertinent to me?  The corollary here is that I don't need to run out and get 2.4s, and when/if I start getting itchy to replace the speakers, I should think about CS6s or the acclaimed 2.7s. Are these good assumptions?

Ob, Used gear offers great opportunity, with some cautions. Most gear, including Thiel speakers use electrolytic capacitors. Even very high quality E caps have a projected life of 25 to 40 years. Rob says he has never seen a Thiel outright cap failure, but nonetheless, their performance deteriorates with time, causing migration of crossover points and slopes, or a vast array of parameters in amps. Some old gear becomes non-inspiring due to this performance deterioration. So, you might pick up used, under-performing gear on the cheap and have it re-capped for like-new performance, or upgraded for better than new performance.

In your room, you might consider Conrad-Johnson or other tube gear. Pay attention to its damping factor and bass management. Tubes can be very sweet.
 
Best of luck with your system rebuilding. 

OK, i have finally read this entire thread and have learned a ton.  Big thanks to jafant for the initial "I just scored...", and the handful of regular contributors, you know who you are and what you've added.  And of course tomtheil, wow, all the insight!  Being new at this, I can't contribute much other than questions, and of course, as requested, some favorite tracks.  Reading through the thread prompted me to pull up many that I had yet to play on my new set-up (James Taylor, Dave Brubeck, Everything But the Girl, Fleetwood Mac, and more), and helped me find a couple new artists (Kim Richey, Bill Frissel) so thanks! 

Here are some recent tracks I currently have in heavy rotation - "Shark Smile" and "Mythological Beauty" by Big Thief;  "I'll Still Destroy You," "Carin at the Liguor Store," and "Dark Side of the Gym" by The National; "Scrimshaw" and "Last Rose" by Anna Meredith; "Bodys" by Car Seat Headrest; older favorites that keep getting played are First Aid Kit and Spoon's album "They Want My Soul."

Tomthiel...

Compared to most folks I’d offer that my listening level is VERY conservative 99% of the time. When pressed on occasion to show off how good my Thiels were I could be convinced to crank up the juice but...then I’d immediately direct their attention to the sonics, not the volume. The very thing that got me hooked on Thiel at the get-go. 

I have a very bright living room.  Laminate floor with a small carpet, a ceiling that starts at 9 foot on the left, sloping up and to the right until it tops at 17 feet.  I sit around 10 feet from the speakers.  (Sat, to be more specific. My current situation forced to me sell off my stuff to meet medical obligations and associated misfortunes.). Temporary though this may be, my current setup is simply a Peachtree Audio Deepblue2 and an Oppo disc player.  

This is will shortly develop into an equally simple setup in the guise of a re-gifting from my girlfriend.  I had given her a Marantz 2252b receiver a few years ago along with a small pair of Usher S520 bookshelves which we utilized in her master bedroom. A true “high school” hifi setup indeed!

When I am able to begin the rebuild it’s going to start with Thiel.  I’ll be as patient as Jafant in finding a pair - and THAT’s patient if you’ve followed his search for amps to power his 2.4’s with.  Patient!

Jon, I accept your perspective. The doubling itself is less important than is having the required power at 2 ohms. So, the most important factor is how well the amp performs at 2 ohms, which is the critical impedance of Thiel designs.

That said, there are some matters of subtlety. When an amp is depleting its powersupply and therefore recharging capacitors in real musical time, the signal waveforms lose their integrity. Much of that "wow" factor that thrills Thiel owners comes from that very wavefront integrity.

Ron, that PS amp is highly likely to do what you need.
TM, I don't have such a list, being out of the loop for a long time. The amps that Jim used all did it. Big Krell, Levinson, I don't remember what else. The amp I use is a pair of Classé DR9s at Stereo: 100, 200, 400 and Mono: 400, 800 and 1200 watts per channel. I notice real improvement from one amp to two, and the one amp has 400 wpc into 2 ohms. My room is not huge and I listen at moderate levels. My main point is that many of the criticisms leveled at Thiel speakers are attributable to inadequate power and/or cable interactions. In manufacturing circles it is impolite to call out such perspectives. But, source signal integrity is a huge part of the picture.

I'll also note that global negative feedback messes with phase integrity. One reason Ayre products sound so good on Thiel is that they both maintain phase integrity to a high degree.

I would enjoy seeing the amp list that you guys might put together.  

Owned 3.5's in the 90's and just purchased the 7.0's. Only speakers I will own.

the big PS Audio 300 monoblock can almost do it. these things can drive anything.   i use the 250 stereo amp on my 3.7's and they do great.
Signature 300 Mono Amplifier Output Power120vac mains, 1kHz, 1% THD 8Ω300W minimum 4Ω600W minimum 2Ω 1000W

TomThiel,Would you be able to supply a short list of amps that actually do double and double again into 2 ohms. I've been pretty happy with a Classe CA-300 pairing with my 3.7s, but now have started to worry!The Classe is rated 300 8 ohm, 600 4 ohms, but no rating into 2 ohms.Thanks in advance for any input.

I think there can be a little too much emphasis on doubling into 4 ohms.  This is related to gain and I think the total power of the amplifier is a better way to think about it.  There are well respected amplifiers that don't double.  Ayre, for example.  I'd consider two amplifiers that put out 300 watts/channel into 2 ohms comparable, even if one is rated 75 watts/channel and the other 100 into 8 ohms.  The 75 watt one doubles twice while the 100 watt/channel one only doubles once.  The 100 watt amp will, however, put out 75, 150 and 300 watts into 8/4/2 ohms.  

Ob, the Mac you cite is current-limited by definition. If it doesn't double from 8 to 4, that means there is insufficient power to do so, whatever combination that power comes from storage capacitors (instantaneous) or transformers (sustained). Beyond that doubling, the power into 2 ohms is most germane. Many Thiel speakers dip near 2 ohms over extended ranges. You need at least 3x the 8-ohm power into 2 ohms and preferably a second doubling (4x).

Now, it's possible that you listen at low volume in a small, lively playback room . . . and less power is adequate . . . but, you're playing with fire if you ever wanted to crank it up. 

If I were looking, I would not put that Mac amp on my list due to self-admitted current limitation. 

I hasten to add that while the addition of Tom’s technical insight to Thiel excellence is equally fascinating and utterly insightful, I am a total ignoramus in this regard. Is it reassuring or disappointing that mere “consumers” can “get it” just by hearing them for the first time?

Hmmm....

Perhaps a little off subject here but I just stumbled upon a “new” product from McIntosh, the MA252 Hybrid Integrated amplifier.  

While it has been stated here that some Mc amps limit current - a definite drawback to those of us who’ve owned or own Thiels - this new thing puts out 100 watts into 8 ohms and 160 into 4;  nothing is mentioned in the literature regarding their famous/infamous autoformers.  Admittedly the piece is super cool looking as well. I suspect some constraints on current delivery because every other amp I’ve owned pretty much doubled down into 4 ohm loads. 

I mention this first because while I love the look of McIntosh I am not necessarily a fan.  I found their customer service to be extremely lacking when I had a minor issue with an MC275 Mark VI amp, and I truly found the 6700 receiver to be a disappointment. That being said, this little beauty goes for $3500 full retail - a veritable bargain in terms of McIntosh given the power rating and features.  Sheesh. 

It IS purty. 

Anyone here with McIntosh/Thiel?

PS:  This is by far and away the best thread in the A’gon forums.  The recent addition of Tom has been amazing.  Carry on!

Prof, you're right about the "hollowing effect". Phase cancellation is a central problem making first-order implementation very treacherous. The output of 2 combined drivers produces a lobe which cancels or augments output when the "listener" is not on the proper vertical axis to integrate the two signals correctly. The ideal way to implement phase coherence requires a true point source, as in the coincident upper drivers of more recent Thiel designs. Short of that coincident solution, the closer the driver spacing the better; notice the touching/clipped perimeters of Thiel mid-tweeters. Plus, the crossover frequency must be as low as possible because the beaming of the upper end of the larger (lower) driver interferes with and is discontinuous with the radiation pattern of the lower end of the upper (higher) driver, making for a room power response different from the on-axis driver response. To wit: Thiel upper crossovers are very low, lower than considered feasible by most; Thiel tweeters cross in around 3KHz. Such a bold XO frequency requires a tweeter that behaves all the way down, below 100 Hz. At these low frequencies there are bound to be resonances which would destroy the tweeter if not mitigated with notch filters, which are themselves costly. Broadband drivers are a design feat as well as a management challenge. Most experts, including those at the "New Thiel" deem the task "impossible".

You are correct: the coincident drivers do a better job than the older multi-driver solutions. But those multi-drivers are themselves extremely sophisticated and allow very low crossover points and both physical and electronic resonance control. Part of Thiel's low impedance (which we love to hate) is that each resonance correction lowers the system impedance, and the global system is really not serviceable until all resonances are effectively eliminated.

As I perform my XO upgrade investigations, I am continually surprised how good all these Thiel drivers are. As an example, the non-resonant bandwidth of the 3.6 midrange spans 7 octaves, with similarly stellar performance from every driver in the stable.  Part of my decision to reach back no farther than the CS2 2, is that previous drivers were merely modifications of off-the-shelf units from Dynaudio, Seas, and so forth. Newer drivers incorporate new sophisticated technologies toward success in first-order systems.

Back to the lab.

hi Guys,  just added a few more pics. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7226Jeff asked about room size and i was really lucky with this room.  When i bought my home back in 1997,  i was single and i wanted to make sure that i had a great space for my listening and for the gear.  This room has a cathedral ceiling which eliminates a lot of issues with standing waves.  the wall to the right of the listening position is so far away that it really is not a factor at all.   the only parallel surfaces are the walls  behind the speakers and the listening position and they are about 15' apart. So the room is a nice big size and great for orchestral sound as those big Thiel's create a giant wall of sound.

@tomthiel

Prof, as a technical note, that wavy driver behaves better than any of the previous cone drivers as well as supports the tweeter wave-form launch very nicely. Therefore the direct series crossover path is simpler than any previous Thiel driver. Jim had always corrected for slope anomalies in all the drivers, which puts additional components in the signal path. In the x.7 models, fewer components are required because the fundamental driver performance is so good. Part of what you hear is the thrill of nothingness.

Sorry I missed responding.

Thanks for that info. Very interesting.

It’s been a while since I read up on first order time/phase coherent crossovers, but I remember that one of the detriments can be some form of interference, or cancellation, I think between the tweeter and midrange driver if I remember. In any case, although I also really liked the old Meadowlark speakers (first order time/phase coherent) this cancellation is something I really noticed. Sit at just the right position or height and it was great. But move, especially vertically getting up from the chair and there was this weird hollowing and a sort of odd "shifting" of the sound, that turned me off. I forget whether I ever heard this from the Dunlavy designs.

I did perceive a very slight hollowing out of the midrange on the old Thiel CS6. But as I’ve said, to my ears this last generation coax by Jim nailed it. It’s just totally coherent, in a way almost no other box speaker I’ve heard can manage. No apparent suck-out or discontinuity, and from a large listening area as well, tonally.


In another forum thread I’ve been detailing an extensive list of speakers I’ve been demoing. Every time I come back to the Thiels they just show up the speakers I just heard in terms of utter coherency and disappearing as obvious forms of distortion or as sound sources. The truly amazing trick with the Thiels is that they not only "disappear" effortlessly as sound sources in a way most speakers are aiming for, but they don’t end up with the wispy sound that many "disappearing" speakers conjure. Instead the sonic images of the Thiels have such density. The impression I sometimes have is that the field in between my Thiels have been replaced by more speakers making sound!

Yes speakers are sold!I enjoyed them  and  now the next owner will too! I still have my 1.6 !

Happy Friday -All.

Hi ,Jafant
According to several posts by the CEO, Bryston has purchased a good stock of the transports for any future repairs of the BCD-3. 

Except for a Magnum Dynalab FM tuner, I'm 100% Thiel and Bryston. 

Rk:

sweet setup!  How big is room?

now, we need a couple more guys to post!

jeff

i just added my system to the list of virtual systems on Audiogon.  https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/7226

Benedict Arnold here;

Gents, many of you appear to have spectacular systems.
Many with integrated subs!!

BUT; many have not posted a System picture & item description!!!!

please do!

Prof; I would love to see the CJ stack along with your room

jeff

Good to see you - dhoff01Do you know how many pairs of the Les Paul Edition were produced?I concur that finish is simply beautiful. I know that you are enjoying your pair.You have a nice room and system set-up. I would not worry about rear wall reflection. The absorption panel is doing its job.
Happy Listening!

You have quite a few years of Audio experience - brayeagle.It must be exciting to have witnessed all of those changes over time.I am a CD/SACD guy myself. The Bryston BCD3 is a very fine spinner.I would not mind having a BCD1, but, the company did not stock pile replacement transports/other critical parts for repair?
Happy Listening!

Say it ain't so, corvette! I get the reason, but to me, those Les Paul speakers are a work of art.  Must be hard to see them go..

As for mine, I've been playing with speaker placement over the past few weeks, and (for now) have determined that I prefer them on the long wall of my listening room.  The room is roughly 15 1/2 x 20, and initially I had them on the short wall spread 8' apart with about 2 1/2' from the rear wall and 3 1/2' from the sides.  On the long wall, I keep them 8 1/2' apart. 3' from the rear and 5 1/2' from the sides.  My listening position is also moved back, from around 9' to closer to 10'. 

I've found that the soundstage and imaging have both dramatically improved by this setup.  I was concerned about rear wall reflection now that my listening position is up against a wall, so I purchased a combo absorber/diffuser panel to hang behind me.  I haven't suffered any high frequency fatigue or noticed any timing issues since I hung the panel, so I guess it's working.

Hi jafant,
I became an audiophile before WWII, listening to Victor Red Seal 78s on my parents console using cactus needles. After WWII, I began building and assembling a series of systems, including using the Thiele Small parameters to construct my speaker cabinets. I transitioned from Heathkits to Scott, then quit assembling the components when I got hooked on Macintosh.  I went from 78s to 45s to LPs, to reel-to-reel tape and finally to CDs.
I switched from tubes to solid state when the supply of KT88s became iffy in both quality and quantity. I'm a classical music nut, with more CDs than common sense. My current CD player is a Bryston BCD-3. My children and grandchildren are wondering why I don't switch to streaming - - but that's another story. 

Welcome! brayeagleyou will find the 3.5 model very popular here. I will second the Bryston 4B-SST/SST2 power amp. This combo is a very fine match. I want to demo the new 4B3 (cubed) for a comparison.  I look forward in reading more about you and your Audio journey.
Happy Listening!

I started my Thiel experience with a pair of 3.5s - - the only infinite baffle floor-standing speakers Thiel put on the market. I called Thiel, and somehow ended up in a conversation with Jim Thiel. Our conversations lasted over a few years, with our last conversation being about the amplifiers  to drive the current line. He said that there was no substitute for clean power at both ends, viz., at the several watt level and the hundreds of watts level. He steered me to Bryston. I now have a pair of 2.7s and a SS2 subwoofer connected via a PX02 crossover. A Bryston 4bsst2 amplifier provides the watts. It took some time to find the best speaker placements, but now I'm a Happy Camper. The 

Can't post pictures, just links to pictures like: .....https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/6163

i may be a little dense here,   but i do not see pics nor any way to post them.  what am i missing.

Corvette01,

Did you sell your Les Paul Edition Thiel CS3.7s?

^^^^ Hey, who let the riff-raff back in here?

No turncoats allowed!


Well, seeing as you like CJ gear we can still talk.  ;-)

That CJ ET3 looks nice!

I consider my CJ Premier 12 amps and Premier 16LS2 preamp my secret weapons.  They are "organic sound" machines that always seem to portray a sense of smooth luxury to whatever I hook them up to.

JF

yep, toob rolling 
The OEM tubes are bright and forward.
I almost returned ET3

I tried Amprex.    Smooth & big bass
I tied Gold Lion.     So,so
Then, Mitsubishi with cyro.     Ooh,baby.   Detailed,bass & smooth
  Telefukun like, I'm told

The CJ with Tube is English gentleman of Pre's-pure & grainfree

jeff

frozentundra
Much Thanks! for the over-view on factors that you are trying to accomplish. Several of you guys across many Audio forums are using Pass Labs/Conrad Johnson. The ET-3 is sweet. The ET-3SE is even sweeter. Are you tube rolling?
Happy Listening!

Gents;

I originally wanted CS2.7’s and had heard them, but that was in 2012 or so

i could not take the scs4t’s unless the sub was running.  To thin on bottom
I knew that going in, when I bought them

I , had also, tried the F208’s at home( see pic) and highs were “ouch” with peachtee stuff. 200 watt ice class d & pre & bass so-so 

I went to a bunch of AXPONA shows and thought the Revel Ultima line was ok but, not much of low end...
mac amps, ml, Bryston, amps etc
Bryston was nice bottom end, but high end was “ ouch”

In Florida I heard them with Pass Stuff 
holy crap
what a difference amps have with speakers 

Anyway , Up and running with sub 
and I gotta say:  the be tweeter is very resolving and smooth
with the CJ ET3 and NOS tubes
( Thiel was pretty hashy, till I did the CJ, too)

 I’m pretty happy so far, Full, accurate and resolving....

I know this is “ blasphemy “, but the sweet spot is bigger than the Thiel and bigger soundstage 

so, Far the full range Studio2 is pretty nice, way better than the F208’s 
Treble is really, really, good

Time will tell
what a hobby! !!

Jeff

Jeff,

Congrats on the Revel speakers. They have such good engineering (and science) behind them that it's almost a sure bet a Revel speaker will produce excellent sound.   While we may hear they are not to everyone's taste, it's very rare to see someone say a Revel speaker sounds bad.

I auditioned a number of Revel speakers recently seeing if I was going to replace my 3.7s (or even 2.7s).   All were extremely competent sounding - really even sounding and controlled top to bottom. The Revels seemed to me to perhaps come closest to what I heard at home with the Thiel 3.7s.   In the end I just preferred the Thiels. I'll be very curious to read what you think once you get the Revels.

Excellent points - JonI, too, did not find Revel nor Aerial nowhere near appealing once I discovered Thiel. This turned out to be a good thing and saved me from making a poor purchase decision. There is something positive to be said for time-phase coherence. Vandersteen gets as close as possible, still, it is not Thiel.

Happy Listening!

frozentundra,

It looks like you are using Thiel SCS4Ts with a subwoofer. Have you tried the more full range Thiel speakers without a subwoofer?

I came back to my Thiels after having Revel Ultima Salon2s in my system for a short while. To my ears and in my setup, they didn't come close to my 20 year old Thiel CS3.6s. The most obvious shortcomings were with timbre, bass impact and soundstage. Possibly it was bad synergy with my Audio Research Ref tube gear, but my wife totally and independantly agreed with me (she has no musical background and I don't consider her an audiophile, but she trusts her senses).

One day, I would really like to audition the Pass Labs classs A amps in place of my ARC Ref 150, but I don't have any dealers near me. Keep us updated on your adventures.

Jon

Happy 4th of July - All.

Good to see you -Jeff
why the change?  Happy Listening!

Prof;

Well said:. It's like talking about your kids,.    "..........make them puke"
lol

Coherence is definitely Thiels thing

I'm afraid I'm leaving you guys.....
just got a Revel Ultima Studio2

I'm going thru death throws finding a baseline , again
what a pain....just shoot me

pass amps work with everything!!!

jeff