I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model? Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
I whole heartedly agree with you, prof, which is why I haven’t spent much on cable myself. However, when I upgraded my amp to monoblocks and needed longer interconnects, I took the opportunity to get some "better" second hand cables. I don’t need speaker cables that long anymore and as Tom has recommended I will be looking to get a shorter run. However, I’m just waiting to get some good, used Goertz at this point.
The two aspects of cables that would cause me to spend additional money isn’t necessarily about performance, but about: 1) its simplicity, and 2) investment potential.
First, you can argue that cable technology really hasn’t changed since it’s invention, short of better insulation materials. Anything else IMHO really doesn’t improve its capacitance or inductance, and resistance is a function of gauge. (Yes, I’m simplifying this a great deal). So unlike equipment that will wear much more quickly or become obsolete due to change in standards or technological advancements, cables will stand the test of time. It’s not like they don’t age, since copper does oxidize and dielectrics can lose their properties over time, but cables age much better than everything else in the audio chain.
Second, commodity metal prices increase over time. In the ’90s, copper sold at $0.80 to $1.00 per pound. Today it’s around $3. (Silver has been much more volatile, with prices of $8 per ounce in the ’90s and around $60 today. In the early 80s, speculators cause silver to run up to $100, so that may happen again. You don’t really see that with copper.)
Therefore, I am more apt to spend money on a nice set of cables knowing that it would last and I could possibly get my investment back if I sold it. I would also most likely go through many iterations of source equipment, D/A converters, processors, amps, and maybe even speakers before I needed to replace the cables.
But the reason I don’t spend additional money on cables is exactly about performance. I just can’t justify spending $3000 on a pair of speaker cables because I just don’t see the performance lift for the money. Alas, I am not a billionaire playboy like Bruce Wayne. Otherwise, I would get those Goertz AG3s and "speakers that you can hug with your arms and your legs." [reference to Lord Business in response to Bruce Wayne when Bruce said "You’re telling me that you have a machine to control the universe but you can’t listen to tunes and surround sound?" - The Lego Move 2014]
Much Thanks! tomthiel I certainly would not say your experience is thin nor dated. There is knowledge on board. Perhaps a little dusting of the mind's attic is in order?Reminds me of The Grateful Dead tune, "Attics of my Life".Happy Listening!
Fortunately I don't burn much brain-fuel over the wires in my speaker (or otherwise). Whatever Thiel chose, it met the values and specs they were going for, and the results are speakers that are still highly competitive with anything today, whatever wiring those other speakers may be using.
For me I've got enough in this hobby to obsess about, without throwing concerns about high end wires/cables in to the fray. I'm as prone to thoughts of upgraditis as anyone else. Having recently acquired a high end turntable, now I have to think about things like VTA, VTF etc - I've gotta draw the line somewhere and my skepticism about the high end cable/wires industry makes dropping concerns for expensive cabling an easy move for me.
I have no actual knowledge of Goertz except that Jim used it in the lab as a reference quality cable. The industry works in many ways and each company develops its own value-style. Thiel valued long-term mutually sustaining relationships built on product, company and dealer synergies. In such relationships, the players share feedback and experience for mutual benefit. Thiel and SW worked this way for many decades. So it is no surprise they used each others' products or co-exhibited at shows.
I can't make product recommendations, because my personal experience is thin and very dated.
Thank you Tom for your thoughts. Your comments that the internal wire is a different animal from the amp-2-speaker one does make me want to revisit just going with SW without auditioning others. Maybe I should just save up my money and go with Goertz AG3! Can't argue with the equipment Jim used himself, at least as a starting point. Do you happen to know why Jim didn't demo the 3.7s with Goertz, but used SW? Is it because SW just offered to front the equipment and marketing? Not sure how the industry works...
Hi pops, thanks for sharing your experience with SW. Very interesting indeed! I haven't spent much time with cabling other than making sure it's sufficient gauge (all at least 10awg). However, as I finalize all my components, I'm sure I'll reach the point where cables will be the last area I want to investigate.
Thiel has used the same internal wire since the 03 in 1978, before the time that wire became a component. We identified a high purity, long crystal, oxygen-free polished wire in teflon jacket, developed for the aerospace avionics industry. That wire, twisted at 2.5 per inch does the job in separate runs from input terminals to XO and XO to each driver, with no shared grounds, etc. The wire is a known component of the XO network, so all its factors are measured and listened to as system characteristics.
When ITT / Florida stopped making that wire, StraightWire developed an equally excellent source and Thiel used that exclusively going forward.
This internal wire is a different animal from amp to speaker cable runs which must be engineered without knowing source or load or ambient impedance, capacitance, length of run and so forth.
@batman I believe Thiel used Straightwire as their cable supplier for most models. Funny enough, I am using SW Mastro II SC with both my 3.6 and CS6. It is just a great cable that has beaten out many higher priced cables in my system, too many to mention in one thread!
Great synergy, not sure internal wiring has anything to do with it but a great match nontheless. I owned SW Virtuoso R SC for a while and preferred the Maestro.
I did a cable shootout using the Cable Company years ago when SW was still making the Maestro and determined it to be the best sub 1K cable in my system. Later, I ventured off into many way more expensive cables and always ended up putting the Maestro’s back in. Could have saved alot of dough....but at least now I know.
It is really the only time I have used the cable company to make an educated choice and it was time well spent.
@batmanfan the list of $2,180 is for two so that's $1,090 each list price. A $100 increase over the original $990 initial price is to be expected. Thiel always raised the prices gradually.
Hi Jab, If S&V were listing them for $1400/each, then prices must have gone up without my knowledge, which is quite possible. Back at the end of 2013, Crutchfield began clearing their Thiel inventory since they stopped carrying the brand. They sold the HigherPlane 1.2 for 50% off the MSRP of $990, at which point I grabbed a couple. I confirmed it by checking my order confirmation which I still have. Also, check out Thiel's press release back in 2007: http://wircmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Inwall_Onwall_REL.pdf Again, prices certainly may have gone up since then but the original MSRP was $990 each.
Bryston and Thiel are a sonic match. Good to read about another brand of cabling that mates well with our loudspeakers. I have only heard a few entry-level Straight Wire cables from a few years ago. I wish that I had written down those models at that time.
I agree with Tom about audio consultants I purchased my 3.5s from them and traded them in for the 3.6s I have owned since 92/93. They are a very reputable dealer and definitely know what they are doing!
For those interested in cabling, in my discussions with Gary Dayton, he also told me that my Thiels were internally wired with Straight Wire, so his entire system uses Straight Wire. (Not sure if it was specific for my 2.7s or PCS, or just Thiel speakers in general--I didn't ask for clarification.). Straight Wire cables were used in combination with the 3.7/Bryston set-up that elicited the following response from James Tanner, also from Bryston:
"We shared a demo room with Thiel at the recent Vegas Hi-Fi show in January (CES 2008) and used the 28B's on the Thiel CS 3.7's. Jim Thiel himself told me that it was the best sound they had ever had at a show. Also George Cardas of Cardas cables was so impressed with the setup he was sending people to our demo as his quote was - 'that's the best sound I have heard at a show in 20 years'." Curious how this setup compares to the reference one used within Thiel with the Krell mono blocks and Goertz cabling. Still, this is impressive evidence of the synergy here.
When I talked further with Gary, he expressed that he uses the Virtuoso R2 interconnects, but he recommended that I reach out to Jerry Willsie from Straight Wire to get his thoughts on my system. Beyond the interconnects, Jerry recommended Pro Thunder power cables and Expressivo Grande II speaker cables. While Gary believes Straight Wire take a scientific-based approach and price their cables accordingly, these reference cables Jerry's recommending are not cheap. For example, the Virtuoso R2 are MSRP at $700/meter and the Expressive Grande are $1450 for an 8ft pair!
Jerry was also very helpful and willing to send cables directly to me so I can audition them for an extended period of time and compare them with my current Kimber Kables. In terms of purchase, he said that I could keep what I liked and I could pay them, but they typically sell only through a dealer network, not directly.
Thanks jon_5912 for forwarding the audio consultants list of used equipment. For those interested, I don't believe the HigherPlane 1.2's were ever priced at $2,180! I think MSRP was around $995 or something like that. So the price here of $990 isn't a discount at all. Not to say that it's a rip-off because these are very rare nowadays given the introduction of atmos so getting your hands on some is a feat in and of itself. Just didn't want anyone here to think they're getting a discount when they aren't, especially for used equipment.
Regarding impedance, it is what it is. The designer chooses the nominal impedance for fundamental reasons and then optimizes all parameters around those dirver particulars. In particular, Jim needed low inductance drivers for high-end extension and low distortion, which is determined principally by voice coil turn count. Jim believed that if amp designers took their work as seriously as he took his, they would make amps that did their job of doubling their power into halved impedance loads to 2 ohms.
I have expressed a differing opinion here previously. IF the nominal impedance could have been 6 with minimum 4 ohms, the voltage sensitivity would be lower, but more amps could drive the load well. But, that's a big IF, because the laws of physics can not be suspended. So, we have 4 ohm speakers to contend with and the amplifier choice is of fundamental relevance to system performance.
For the Record: Audio Consultants in the Chicago area was indeed as good
a dealer as a manufacturer could ask for. Count on them for straight
dealing. In those days of knowledgeable brick and mortar dealers, such questions of system pitfalls and synergy were a big part of the dealers' function. Nobody would be sold an anemic amp with a Thiel speaker and dissatisfaction and driver failures were a rare occurrence.
Oblgny, thank you, can you please ship USPS to a PO BOX? it should be 14$ insured, this is the price I paid to send mine to Mr Gillum for the eq. Let me know if you are fine with it and how I can pay you and I’ll send the address. Thank you again,
I don't know if this is relevant to anyone here but Audio Consultants in Chicago was a Thiel dealer for decades. They've usually got a few pairs of Thiels on their used list. Right now 3.5, 2.2 and 2 for sale.
I have been wondering if it would be possible to increase the impedence with 4 to 6 ohm if I were to refurbish the xo of my 3.5? My single ended otl amp would be more efficient at higher impedence.
Harry, I have looked long and hard at which models to hot-rod. My choices center on Thiel-developed drivers and a long life horizon going forward. Although the 3.5 was a defining product in its time, it doesn't check enough boxes. The drivers are modifications of commercial units with little of Thiel's proprietary magnetics or cone materials and geometry. Those drivers are becoming obsolete. Same can be said for the equalizer. Redevelopment of a product is a substantial undertaking requiring custom component development and re-voicing via systematic measurement and listening, like when a new product is developed. I expect the results to be worthwhile.
The first-tier models are the PowerPoint1.2, CS1.6, CS2 2, 2.4 and 3.6. Next round includes the 2.7, 3.7, CS6 and 7.2 - in order of expressed interest and personal time availability. First tier hopes to debut before year's end.
I agree with your "masking" comment, which can be attributed to various factors. Among them is the presence of electrolytic capacitors in the signal path which are at or nearing their end of life expectancy. Since you love the speakers and if you or someone you know is capable, I believe you can make a great improvement yourself by removing the crossovers and replacing the electrolytic caps and resistors with like-values. (Your coils, wire and layout are excellent.) If that prospect interests you, I can point you to brands and sources which have emerged from our upgrade project research. You are welcome to send a PM to explore this avenue.
Tom, I have a four speaker 3.5 setup (used to be five). An Accupahse AC-2 moving coil through a Marcof PPA2 headamp and an Oppo 105 through an updated Audio Research SP-6A for the front channels and Audionics BT-2 for the rears. Four Outlaw M200 monoblocks feed the Thiels.
I love the accurate spectral balance of the 3.5's, which is why I am loath to give them up. But I also have a pair of 2.2's in another room driven by a Counterpoint SA-1000 through an Adcom 5300, and this combo is definitely more transparent.
My question - are we ever going to get a "hot-rodded" audiophile version of the 3.5 cross-overs? I've felt all along that the crossovers perform a subtle "masking" of transparency, and today I am even more convinced. I'd gladly pay for an upgrade as a preference over having to trade up my speakers.
Thosb, As Beetle mentioned, the 2.3 is not a front line candidate because more interested folks have 2.4s which have more evolved drivers. But 2.3s have potential and everything we are learning on other models applies to the 2.3. If you are so inclined, we could help you create a pair of well hot-rodded 2.3s that will definitely address the "tizziness / brightness" to a significant degree.
Be aware that your room has a significant issue of the length being close to double the width. Your standing waves and timing reflections are likely the significant limitation to performance. Diffusion in the corners will help. If possible, consider orienting on an axis not parallel with any wall to spread out early reflections.
hi thosb and welcome. forgive the shameless sales pitch but you might want to consider updating your speakers as they have come along way since the 2.3's and earlier Thiels could be a bit tizzy. i have owned four generations of the 2 series since the mid 80's, but am now selling my wonderful pair of 2.7's which are awesome. why am i selling them? Because i just acquired a pair of 3.7's. otherwise they would be with me for years. if that is out of your reach dollar wise, you might want to consider the 2.4's as they are a nice step up from the 2.3's. welcome to audioland where everyday is made better by playing music we love.
I am looking to improve highs which sometimes lack crystal clear
clarity, I think the technical term is "tizzyness?" Also would like to
improve the vocal/midranges, make these warmer and deeper. What should
my next upgrade be?
Upgrade the crossovers!
Seriously, this will be your best bang-for-the-buck move and
I imagine you will be very happy with the result. Tom Thiel has an idea
regarding “tizzyness” and Thiel’s reputation, among some, for being bright
despite the ruler flat measurements. Unfortunately for you, Tom is not
currently planning an upgrade kit for CS2.3, partly because of lack of demand
for that model (as measured by responses in this thread). But maybe your need
will spur him?
If you can’t wait for a kit that may or may not ever come,
you can start your own upgrade. I have replaced the OEM resistors in my CS2.4
SEs to notable improvement with Mills MRA-12s. Highly recommended. I will build
entirely new boards later this summer/early fall, replacing all parts. My SEs
are something of a test mule for Tom’s kit development.
Tom may chime in with some ideas for you but feel free to PM
me if you want more details about capacitor choices. The CS2.3 boards are
roughly similar to those in my 2.4s, a bit simpler, even. The main unknown, for
me, is how much room you have to replace the 100uF electrolytics with film
caps. You can probably otherwise directly replace the extant caps and resistors
with higher quality parts.
The result should be amelioration, if not complete removal, of the "tizzyness" and notably enhanced clarity and transparency. Jim Thiel engineered some superb drivers - these merit higher quality passive parts!
Currently have Thiel CS 2.3s driven by Krell KAV-300il with Audioquest CV-8 speaker cables. Front end is Oppo BDP-103 used as transport, PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC (and getting the Bridge and converting cds to NAS next, will run Roon and Tidal). PS Audio UPC-200 for power, AC cord for Krell is an Audioquest NRG 3 with 20 amp plug, converted to IES with Black Voodoo converter. Silnote Morpheus XLR cables. Room is 11.5' x 22' x 8.5', no treatments, pics coming on virtual systems soon.
Loving this system so far, have greatly enjoyed each improvement. However, I am looking to improve highs which sometimes lack crystal clear clarity, I think the technical term is "tizzyness?" Also would like to improve the vocal/midranges, make these warmer and deeper. What should my next upgrade be? I am thinking that a significant improvement is going to cost $2000-$3000, in the meantime I was going to try some DIY room treatments. In setting up my HT I convinced myself the room is the most important part of the system, or at least the most bang-for-the-buck improvement wise once you have a decent system in place.
Background - dove into two channel hifi at the beginning of 2018, goal was to put together a decent sounding system in a dedicated listening room using used, discounted, even vintage equipment, all for less than $5000. I think with the PS Audio Bridge I will come in just over that mark. Geoff Poor at Glenn Poor's Audio and Video in Champaign IL demonstrated the magic of time and phase aligned speakers and after some research I Ianded on the CS 2.3s. I had been using my brother's old Maggies and had already purchased a Krell integrated amp for these along with Audioquest cables, also had an Oppo universal player from an old HT set-up, so that's where I started.
ronkent the RUSH catalog has been a victim of several re-mastering batches over the years. The first kicked off in 1997. These are not well-done according to the experts (CD). Next wave was in early 2000's. Hit-and miss titles.Next wave in 2009-2011. Again, hit-and-miss. There are "gold" discs via MFSL. There are 35th anniversary / 40th anniversary editions. Sector re-masters boxed sets. I think that I have them all accounted? To my ears, seek out the original Mercury USA/German "atomic" CDs.Very affordable, easy to spot on eBay or Amazon. These will also refer to PDO or all silver faced (including the hub) discs- I own these ones. Hope this has been helpful. Happy Listening!
It was around $975 for the 3 drivers. I seem to remember when I inquired a while back that a single set of 3.7 drivers was a bit more expensive.
ron,
I wish I could be of more help. The remasters I've been listening to of Rush are the recently released vinyl remasters (some done at Abbey Road) and they are stupendous. Never, ever heard Rush sound like this.
The various CD remasters were done earlier - some in the 90s, others I think around 2009. I've seem some complaints about the hit or miss quality, some brightness etc. The 2112 remaster CD seems to get good notices though, and I thought it sounded good on my system. (But none of them kick it like the vinyl remasters).
Prof, how much for the drivers? I've been thinking about that myself as I'd like to keep my 3.7s pretty much forever and I imagine Coherent Source Services won't be around more than 10 years, if that long. My 2 2s are probably 25 years old and get used every day so I imagine the 3.7s probably have another 20 years of life left, maybe more.
I agree about bigger speakers. There is no substitute for big drivers in a big box.
My spare drivers for my 2.7s just arrived (coax, woofer, passive). Rob was great with communication and shipping. Highly recommended!
Now I can breath easier when I crank my speakers, which I'm doing all the more these days as I'm re-buying old Kiss, Rush and Van Halen albums to blast through the house!
One of the things I like so much about a floor standing speaker vs standmounted is the sense of scale and effortless quality when you turn up the sound. The Thiels especially have a very satisfying solidity and punch from top to the bottom of the bass, whereas other speakers (especially stand mounted speakers engineered with a hump to sound bigger than they are) tend to get a bit softer and "woofier" down bottom. For Van Halen, Alex's drums and Michael Anthony's bass guitar has a thunderous solidity that really rock the place.
No worries about the site rules, I’ll be glad to give it to you for nothing provided you simply pay shipping/insurance. I’ll find a suitable box and protect it well enough. I’ve seen it listed on other sites for around $100-$150 so let’s insure it for that. That’s all - shipping + insurance and it’s your’s for ZIP. Depending on where you live from 11755 I’d guesstimate somewhere around $50 for the whole enchilada. Megillah. Thingamabob.
Same goes for the drivers except I will NOT ship. Any Thielist within a reasonable distance of 11755 is welcome to them for ZIP. Nada. Zilch. Zero. The mids are not working but the tweeters and woofers worked fine. The crossovers too. Sequential serial numbers too.
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